Given that he dismissed 450k people last week as "economically illiterate, unscrupulous dole scroungers", he knows how to win friends and influence people, doesn't he? :rolleyes:
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Given that he dismissed 450k people last week as "economically illiterate, unscrupulous dole scroungers", he knows how to win friends and influence people, doesn't he? :rolleyes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
I'm inclined to agree with both posts. The Yes side needs O'Leary mouthing off about as much as it needs the surgeon general presenting strong evidence that voting yes gives you clap.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
I tend to disagree, the general public have an unhealthy respect for O'Leary's opinions, seeming to equate his particular brand of brashness as honesty. As a group, which is of course what we have to deal with, I would think the majority will think that what's good for O'Leary will be good for them. Completely in error, of course. O'Leary does what's good for O'Leary in the first instance, what's good for O'Leary in the second instance, and what's good for Ryanair in the last instance. The public never enters the equation.
Fitgerald's comments have been rubbished in turn by Karl Whelan and others. It's hard to argue with Karl, he's a ball of energy that comes across as a mite argumentative - which I sympathise with, as I get accused of the same - but he uses facts to back up his arguments, and the people I've seen him up against, well, they don't. What they say sounds like facts, but if you look into them they're generally bluff, or failing that blunder. He was on the radio the other day and they guy he was arguing completely personalised the whole thing, I was just waiting for the obnoxious little ******* to say "do you still beat your wife Karl?"* Seriously, that was the guys level.
adam
* To my shame, I got caught out with that when I was a young flame warrior on a mailing list I really had no intellectual right to be on. It's a lesson I've never forgotten. ;)
O'Leary is a sideshow.
Much more worrying is Cóir launching their campaign today. Lets hope the media take them to pieces for being the Youth Defence fascist scum they are and always have been. Time to drag up Justin Barrett's political history again methinks....
Or maybe the Government will completely fook everything up by attacking them and giving them credibility (and I'd completely agree with your sentiment about the bigots).Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
Its worrying that we are well into what should be the real campaign and the real issues aren't yet being debated (by either side), which allows people like Cóir and O'Leary to fill the vacuum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
Its like deja vu all over again (as Yogi Berra once said :D).
Labour wheeled out A poster driven on the back of a truck:D declaring their position for next month on Monday.
The first pole posters in Dublin have come from Coir though, with a range of hard-hitting, effective messages backing up their campaign. So Round 1 in the marketing campaign to the No side. :)
God help us if the public fall for the tripe spouted by Youth Defence..,oops Cóir, no link there at all, even though they share the same members and offices....:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
I actually think these loonies are a potential positive for the Yes side. People should be asked if they want to side with a far right, anti-divorce, anti-immigration bunch of zealots for whom defeating Lisbon is only a small step on their journey to bring Ireland back to the Dark Ages.
As with the post Lisbon1 focus on Libertas, the Yes side continue to focus on the right wing nutjobs with the the negative side of their campaigns*. It takes the focus off the leftist groups, that are obviously making points they find hard to rebut!
* not that I have a problem with them going after the aforementioned nutjobs - it's a pity this Government is so quick to panda to them on social reforms and advances such as gay marriage, blasphemy, schooling etc
The Coir posters are mostly crap, but then so is the rhetoric coming from the Yes side.
I saw a poster the other day claiming that 95% of europeans would vote no. I was on a bus, and missed whose poster it was. Was it Coir? How partisan do you have to be to actually believe that?
Apparently its a Charlie McCreevy quote.Quote:
Originally Posted by John83
If my eyebrows go any higher, I'll look like an anime character.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
Google it.Quote:
Originally Posted by John83
I've no idea whether he actually said it, but thats whats alleged.
http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/mccre...-no-95078.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
It was 95% of countries, not 95% of Europeans. A bit on it here: http://www.irishtimes.com/blogs/stat...e-no-campaign/
He's a complete **** in fairness, and a corrupt one at that.
I think I see what your saying and yet I reckon there might be a good few more passive yes voters out there than passive no voters. That is - I can picture a cohort of people who would stumble from the deathbeds to vote no. I find it difficult to picture a counterpart yes contingent.Quote:
Originally Posted by dahamsta
O'Leary, given enough Oxygen of publicity, and lord knows he'll get it because he's cheap bluster yap on radio or tv, might just make some of that passive yes tune out and stay home.
How do you sell procedural efficiency?
In fairness, its not a particularly easy task.
One can but hope Lionel Richie.
Everyone else, I want be absolutely clear on the Coir stuff before it starts: While I dislike them as much as any Yes voter, I don't want to see attacks out of hand here. Debunk with facts and statistics or keep your mouth. And vice versa on Yes debunkers.
Not that there's much to debunk. I don't think I've seen a single fact from the Yes side, which I'd guess is the point Coir is trying to make.
adam
In many ways the position is clearer this time around without Libertas and their downright misleading "pro-EU, anti Lisbon" trojan horse.
The groups that are pro a bigger and stronger EU are pro Treaty and those who want EU powers to be rolled back are, unsurprisingly, against.
To paraphrase a US election slogan, "it's not about the Treaty, stupid". Adam I realise this doesn't sit easily with you, but it is what it is. In a democracy people can vote for whatever reason they see fit and I've seen nothing as yet to indicate that people are viewing the Treaty as anything other than a signpost for where the EU goes.
I might be wrong and the FF/FG/Greens/Labour brains trust might surprise everyone and find a convincing way to sell the Treaty itself over the next few weeks. But from a general perspective it's always easier, whatever the topic, to argue against something and for maintaining the status quo.
I can only speak for myself and to be honest I'm sick of repeating it:
Up until this point I've been very much pro-EU, in fact I'm a federalist. However Lisbon is about power for politicians, not on our behalf but on their behalf. They're all for it because it gives them - not us, not Ireland, not Europe, but them personally - more power, and that's why I'll be voting No.
It's not a signpost for us, it's a milestone for them, one where they take another chunk of our democratic power and pocket it for themselves. If they have their way, with Lisbon and their next treaty, I won't have a vote for much longer.
adam
Saw the other side's posters today.
All hollow stuff about the main selling point, the economy. :rolleyes: If you weren't aware how badly the economic situation is here, you'd be forgiven for thinking that at 9am on October 5th, there will be a sudden influx of 400,000 jobs coming out of nowhere.
The reality however is that, not one job will be created as a result of the government getting their way, the opposite will happen in fact. More will be lost once the savage budget kicks in in the New Year.
How exactly does Lisbon make the EU more undemocratic?Quote:
Originally Posted by dahamsta
I'll agree that the assumption that ratifying Lisbon will be good for the economy is a big guess. Its based purely on the historic fact that the EU has been the single biggest contributor to Ireland's growth. But the Government's forthcoming budget is irrelevant to Lisbon. So basically, I don't understand what you're talking about :confused:.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
You quoted my post, did you not read it?Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
More power for politicians doesn't necessarily mean more power for us. EU politicians have demonstrated over and over again, via this bloody constitution in particular, that they have little or no respect for direct democracy. Lisbon gives them more power to legislate withour our input. The next, which they will find easier to pass because of Lisbon, will make it easier again. A line has to be drawn in the sand.Quote:
Originally Posted by dahamsta
I don't think Lisbon makes two balls of difference on MY individual democratic input. Does it make a difference to the democratic process in terms of Ireland as a collective? Yes, butQuote:
Originally Posted by dahamsta
1) not in any way as widespread a manner as the scaremongerers are alleging
2) Ireland having less influence is NOT less democratic. Its more democratic if anything.
Perhaps if you posted real legislative examples of how Lisbon will result in the EU making material, practical decisions through less democratic means, then we can talk but without any concrete details you're as guilty as the pro side in not actually articulating what the real issues are.
ORA, I'm neither a politician not a PR hack, I have a job and a life, I don't have time to dig into the treaty every time I post here to quote section 3 paragraph a subsection ii. I researched Lisbon last time around and made my decision; and since nothing has changed in the treaty, and the reassurances we've been given aren't worth the paper they're partly written on, my vote won't change either. If you want facts, perhaps you should be talking to the people you're complaining about above. They certainly don't have any, as you've said yourself.
More power is being given to the Commission. If the laws put forth by the Commission are so mind-numbingly fantastic that we simply can't do without them, why can't the government implement them?Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
This would also provide us with a little cover so that if the EU try to implement a law that is either detrimental to Ireland or that the government simply don't agree with (think implementing the smoking ban in a country where nobody, not even the government, wants it) then they don't have to implement it.
And why should they have to? We're a separate nation, are we not? What does it matter to us that a Pole can smoke in his local?
It's more democratic that we have a smaller vote in the running of the Union in itself, but it's incredibly undemocratic to hand over more power to legislate Irish Laws.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
Lisbon isn't about today, tomorrow, next Tuesday. It's about twenty years down the line, when a completely different crop of politicians that you might trust a whole lot less come into the Commission.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
Now as it happens I'd never trust the EU to legislate for Ireland, but if I did, I'd certainly not let the Commission off the leash to do as they wish!
If they're making progressive laws, that we agree with, we'll let them. And if not, we won't. What possible problem have you with this?
Based on recent and not so recent history I'll happily entrust legislative powers for the relevant areas of legislation to Europe rather than the Oireachtas.Quote:
Originally Posted by ped_ped
You've mentioned the Commission's role, but neglected to mention the Parliament and Council's role in approving legislation? Preumably because it doesn't sit well with your point on democracy...
More bias from RTE.Another blantantly biased report giving a quote from the YES side while nothing from the NO:mad:.
http://www.rte.ie/aertel/106-01.html
That's about gas prices :)
Cóir were too busy saying a decade of the rosary to keep Ireland abortion free to comment......Quote:
Originally Posted by eamo1
Can you or anyone else come up with one example where the Parliament didn't approve proposed legislation? There is no recognised Government, and no recognised opposition, so whatever is proposed by the Commission is automatically approved by the Parliament.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
The EU Parliament is a 5-year holiday for failed/rejected politicians. The Parliament is a mere talking shop, where politicians don't declare expenses, make decisions on what's best for them rather than the people they represent, and basically live the life of Reilly in the plushest surroundings. It's the politicians at home who have to take the flak from their electorate, except his hands are tied as he is either a) in opposition, or b) unable to do anything due to Brussels legislation in place. 80% of our laws has to be compliant with Brussels, and 100% of them will have to be should Lisbon be overturned.
Among some of the more worrying concerns are the re-introduction of the death penalty, and the possible regulation of the internet and all mobile communications, together with Spanish-like passport regulations, in the name of "fighting terrorism". Anything that isn't covered in this treaty can be introduced at a future date, without EU citizens consent, as the treaty is self-amending. The level of power the Eurocrats stand to gain from this is astonishing, and very concerning. It's to us to stop them from getting it.
80% of our laws come from Brussels?
I don't think so, and neither do these guys: http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/200...e-from-the-eu/
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...253814199.html
He will find himself sucked into the debate. First stop: foot.ieQuote:
Dubliner Shane O’Neill has carved out a successful and lucrative career on the global stage as an investment banker and cable TV deal-maker.
He did so largely outside the gaze of the Irish media, but that could be about to change with O’Neill’s decision to step forward as a backer of the “We Belong” campaign for a Yes vote in the second Lisbon Treaty referendum.
Like it or not, O’Neill, the chief strategy officer with Colorado-based cable TV giant Liberty Global, will be in the line of fire of those on the No side and could find himself sucked into a messy debate that leaves many people cold.
You don't have to explain any implications sir. You just have to learn what the word "No" means. Assuming you do, get on with doing your job.Quote:
It was in late 2005 that I went to the Liberty board and advocated investment in Ireland and we bought Chorus and NTL.
“The idea of now having to go back to the board and explain to them the implications of a No vote to Lisbon would be a nightmare.
Well tell them then. America of course is a well known EU-member :D, and as the first port of the democratic call in the world, should have no problem respecting votes anywhere.Quote:
“Board members in corporate America don’t have the time or the interest to understand what the implications of EU law are and what our status is.
Certainty for who?Quote:
They just want certainty.
Whatever foreigners want should be irrelevant to an Irish voter voting in an Irish referendum on Ireland's future. I'd rather not have certainty for foreigners here, if it means my vote as an Irish citizen in an Irish vote is respected.
Another fullly-paid up EU state. :DQuote:
We stubbed our toe in Argentina
So am I. Only I want what I believe is best for my country, whereas you and your business buddies don't want what's best for my country, but want what's best for them. (and of course the "don't give a damn about Ireland" Americans)Quote:
“I’m a proud Irishman from top to toe.”
That's where we differ sir. And in a month's time, you might just understand what "no" means.
I think I will be most definitely voting YES, actually the more I think of it, its a huge shame we are still not under the power of westminister government, I don't think we're Fit too govern ourselves, are the Irish just too thick for self government? - the recent Fianna Fail, Developer, Banker triumvirate would suggest YES we are Thick.. so then whats the big fuss of being a Federal wing of a bigger European Government contolled by those clever Germans.
Sounding a bit like that Apres Match German commentator.........."Hello Irish pixieheads".Quote:
Originally Posted by Reality Bites
www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUYVXEf5EQ8
Do you seriously think Merkel, Sarkosy, Berlusconi et al care about how their decisions affect Billy O'Toole in Roscrea, or Biddy O'Flaherty in Roscommon? That's what our politicians are paid very well to care.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reality Bites
In fairness, I haven't yet met a voter (yes or no) who is actually planning to vote for the detriment of the country......Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
Idealistcially, they may be but a lot of them would be in the same boat as Merkel, Sarkozy and Berlusconi - they are looking out for themselves first nd foremost.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
If politicans really cared all about their constituents, then Bat O'Keefe and FF wouldn't be trying to rush in legislation that will deny thousands third-level education and the opposition would be vociferously condemning it.
Yes, but the people of his constituency can vote Batt out when the time comes around. Not the Commissioners.