The Derry City thread - Derry sign first four players

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Originally Posted by belfastred

Surely Derry have gone are are to be replaced by a new Derry club based in Northern Ireland.

Surely this new Northern Ireland club will need special dispensation to join the LOI

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My understanding is holding on to the current name, by purchasing from the liquidator, will be a massive help.

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Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton

My understanding is holding on to the current name, by purchasing from the liquidator, will be a massive help.

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Even if they buy the name they will be a brand new club.

However I'll be surprised if anything does happen given the governing bodies in both jurisdictions.

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Originally Posted by Mr_Parker

But who is "we?"

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Do I really need to spell this out ? :eek:

"We" is Derry City FC.

And before you try to get smart arse - "we" still exist, and the FAI can't remove our IFA membership.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

The topic of debate is a prospective football club which will be based in NI, playing its home games in NI and which it seems likely will have to be a member of the IFA in NI.
Meanwhile, it hopes to play its League football in another jurisdiction, which situation is ordinarily not allowed, so that it seems it should be obliged to receive at least an acknowledgement by UEFA/the IFA that it may do so in succession to the former DCFC, if not a brand new authorisation all of its own.

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EG - you're obsession continues unabatted, and is more than a little boring right now. Bang on about it all you like - DCFC won't be rejoining the Irish Legaue unless we have no other option. Whether or not that situation arises is moot, so without wanting to be rude I have no desire to have to wade through another 10 pages of drivel on what could, would, might, should happen if a very moot situation were to possibly, at some point, perhaps arise. In short - give it all a fcukin rest, will you ?

One issue that I will respond to is that quoted above. I know you're smart enough to get this point, but for some reason you seem unwilling to unable to do so.

Firstly - if the situation of clubs from one footballing jurisdiction playing in another is not normally allowed, then it is an event that is allowed to happen happen with alarming frequency ! There are up to 10 Welsh-based and Welsh-affiliated clubs playing in the Engliish system, one English-based/affiliated club playing in the Scottish system, one Scottish-based/registered team playing in the English structure until recently (Gretna), lots of English based and registerd clubs have played in Welsh competitions in recent years, and the likelihood of the 2 biggest Scottish clubs playing in England whilst based in Glasgow and affiliated to the SFA creeps gently closer year by year. And that's before we throw the likes of Leichtenstein clubs in Switzerland etc into the mix to prove that it's not just a UK pheonomenon.

Now no doubt you'll cry that all of the above have special reasons for why they should have been alowed to do so. And here's the rub - so does Derry City. Our special reasson is that we've played in that other jurisdiction for 25yrs very happily thank you. We like it there, everyone there likes us there, and no-one bar few covetous IL fans like yourselves seem to have a problem with the situation. If we weren't alowed to go back to the LOI, would Merthyr Tydfil have to go to the Welsh system next time they went bust ? Answer : No. Because you're talkign nonesense.

All of which brings us to the key point that I'm sooooooo bored of having to make on here. An EU test-case was established on the rights of football club's in one jurisdiction to play in anoather in 1994 when the Welsh FA lost a case against the Welsh exile clubs (those playing in Engalnd) in the English High Court. Since then, no association has dared to try to force a club that wants to play in a structure outside of their jurisdiction to not do so. Why - because they'd lose. Isn't it surprising how in amidst the frequent noise of the Old Firm joining the English system, you never once hear big talk from the SFA about how they'd stop it ? Well no - it's because they know they can't. So please stop bringing it up.

Boring.

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Originally Posted by -lamb-

the fans are in no position of power to make ANY decisions tbh. they could huff and puff but when it boils down to it, they haven't much say.
you are basing uefa's position on their opinion a quarter of a century ago. who knows what their position would be if any club going under the name derry city had to justify that their current situation required jurisdiction exemption? certainly none of us do. we would only be guessing.

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Read my last post.

Do you share libidos with Ealing Green ?

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

But the more I think about it, the less impressed I am by what has been going on with the LOI and the more appreciative I am of the IL.

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Damn straight !

It's a shame we can't have riot police called into our stadiums for matches, and medieval hand-to-hand battles between large numbers of armed fans in the middle of a football pitch at the end of our title deciding games.

Any. Remaining. Credibility. Gone..... :o

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Read my last post.

Do you share libidos with Ealing Green ?

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i did. interesting reading, but not sure just how relevant it is to derry city's position.
one difference i will mention is that all of those teams you mention (afaik) were all playing in another jurisdiction prior to uefa's foundation or else had no national league or fa of their own.
afaik many of those welsh teams were (not forgetting the fact wales didn't actually have a national league until the 90s, post-"derry city to loi" and at a time when uefa were starting to crack down on teams in other jurisdictions), as were the liechtenstein teams (plus no affiliated fa until the 90s), as were berwick rangers, as were gretna.

but that is not the case with derry city. they had a national league and are not a pre-uefa legacy quirk.

and this is a forum to discuss happenings, possibilities and opinions. people have every right to go on about it if they want. it's not anyone else's fault YOU don't want to hear about it tbh.

Love the tag "Irish league stalkers", sums it up perfectly.

Admit it, ye (IL fans) love Derry, can't bear to be without them and want them back. Maybe ye can buy them some flowers and a box of chocolates but, it's been 30 years, ye have grown apart and let's be fair, it didn't work between ye then and it is doubtful it will now.

In all seriousness :confused:, would the IFA be so bitter as to prevent Derry continuing in the LOI? If they are, then it kind of shows that not much has changed in the north and that "catholic" clubs will still be treated as the "lesser" clubs.

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Originally Posted by Mr_Parker

Why do Derry have to retain their membership of the IFA?

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Do we?

C'mon Parker, I asked you this question yesterday and It's not like you NOT to have an answer.

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Originally Posted by Sam_Heggy

If they are, then it kind of shows that not much has changed in the north and that "catholic" clubs will still be treated as the "lesser" clubs.

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garbage.

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Originally Posted by Krstic

Do we?

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yes, but feel free to prove otherwise.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

Because I haven't seen an agreement that states
1) Derry City would share Celtic's cost
2) what Celtics obligations were in respect of the squad they brought over.

Obviously I can't believe a thing that our former board said, so can you confirm that we are liable based on a written contract or was it a gentlemans agreement between Derry and Cliftonville?

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Have you seen the same for the money owed to Dungannon and Linfield?

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Originally Posted by Krstic

Do we?

C'mon Parker, I asked you this question yesterday and It's not like you NOT to have an answer.

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Sorry missed it. What was the question?

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Originally Posted by Mr_Parker

Sorry missed it. What was the question?

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Are we still members of the IFA and do we have to continue to be so?
If we are, do we have a rep on any board?
I know Jack McCauley is our rep within the FAI.

This has been sidetracked into a debate over whether a new Derry City can play in the LOI or not. That's a red herring as it's of no benefit to anyone for the Irish League to prevent them playing in the LOI. Some deal will be done to pay the debts to Dungannon and whoever else.

What's of more concern is how Derry can by-pass the A Championship and play in the first division next year while walking away from all their debts. That a new Derry team should be given first call on the First Division place ahead of Tralee, Castlebar, Cobh, etc. is disgraceful.

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Originally Posted by harps1954

Bascially what I'm asking is this: Is the Derry City that will play in next season's First Division a brand spanking new club which is setting off in it's first season, or is it the old club with all it's history under new ownership?

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Like Shamrock Rovers, it will be the best of both worlds.

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Originally Posted by Dodge

Must be fun in the lower league?

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It's not bad for a short holiday every few years when you get bored of playing the same teams all the time.

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Originally Posted by Schumi

it's of no benefit to anyone for the Irish League to prevent them playing in the LOI.

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depends if they played il football or be thran and close shop.
let's be honest here, derry city would probably be the 3rd biggest club at worst in the il and a worthwhile long term addition back to the ranks of clubs they really belong to in the first place.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

Back in the real world, it is clear, as stated above, that the biggest issue is the IL creditors.

Whilst the IFA probably has good right to object on other grounds, politically, there is no reason to. The IL has been happy with Derry not being members and the FAI has been happy to have them. Therefore, realisitically, unless there is a reason for someone to rely on the law to object, then there is no reason to open what would be a huge political can of worms.

However, the 3 IL clubs being creditors is a very good reason to object (I'm assuming C'Ville have a legal agreement that we would pay a portion of Celtics cost, otherwise its two IL creditors). Some way has to be found to make good this debt, otherwise the IFA is almost duty bound to object to NewCo joining the FAI, on behalf of its out of pocket members.

Solve that, and the other problems solve themselves IMO.

Not that that will stop Ealing Green constructing and destructing numerous arguments to the contrary. All on his own.

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Derry FC are a bona fide LOI club. The IFA have no special claim over Derry.
In the matter of the outstanding debt of Derry to IL clubs, the IFA have just the same claim for retribution as they would have over any other bankrupt LOI club that owed money to an IL club.

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Originally Posted by -lamb-

depends if they played il football or be thran and close shop.
let's be honest here, derry city would probably be the 3rd biggest club at worst in the il and a worthwhile long term addition back to the ranks of clubs they really belong to in the first place.

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If they don't want to play in the IL, as seems very clear from their fans' views here, there's no point in trying to force them. It'd only be looking for trouble.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Do I really need to spell this out ? :eek:

"We" is Derry City FC.

And before you try to get smart arse - "we" still exist, and the FAI can't remove our IFA membership.

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No, but the IFA can. :cool:

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Originally Posted by Krstic

Are we still members of the IFA and do we have to continue to be so?
If we are, do we have a rep on any board?
I know Jack McCauley is our rep within the FAI.

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1. Yes and yes.
2. Not that I know of, but with over 800 members I would be surprised if every club had a rep on a committee.

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Originally Posted by -lamb-

depends if they played il football or be thran and close shop.
let's be honest here, derry city would probably be the 3rd biggest club at worst in the il and a worthwhile long term addition back to the ranks of clubs they really belong to in the first place.

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Moderators : Is it possible to dole out virtual exclusion orders to keep these dirty old Irish League men at least 100 virtual metres away from anything to do with Derry 'maiden' city ?

They're starting to scare more than just the kids now with their salivating obsession..... :eek:

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Originally Posted by Mr_Parker

No, but the IFA can. :cool:

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Indeed they can. And they could remove yours too. And any other club regiesterd with them. Isn't life fascinating.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

Because I haven't seen an agreement that states
1) Derry City would share Celtic's cost
2) what Celtics obligations were in respect of the squad they brought over.

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This might be veering slightly off-topic, but TBH I'm not sure what the topic is anymore, so anyway. I don't know whether there was a written agreement between DCFC and Cliftonville, but WRT to the 2nd question, it's very hard to believe that Celtic would have given any guarantee about what squad they would bring. It was an international weekend, which means Celtic could not have guaranteed the availability of any player who might have got an international call up (which is most of their squad).

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Originally Posted by -lamb-

i did. interesting reading, but not sure just how relevant it is to derry city's position.
one difference i will mention is that all of those teams you mention (afaik) were all playing in another jurisdiction prior to uefa's foundation or else had no national league or fa of their own.
afaik many of those welsh teams were (not forgetting the fact wales didn't actually have a national league until the 90s, post-"derry city to loi" and at a time when uefa were starting to crack down on teams in other jurisdictions), as were the liechtenstein teams (plus no affiliated fa until the 90s), as were berwick rangers, as were gretna.

but that is not the case with derry city. they had a national league and are not a pre-uefa legacy quirk.

and this is a forum to discuss happenings, possibilities and opinions. people have every right to go on about it if they want. it's not anyone else's fault YOU don't want to hear about it tbh.

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Lamb - the pre-UEFA legacy bit is irrelavent.

No - the important thing all these rather common 'exceptions' have in common is that they currently benefit from an exception to the rule. Regardless of why that exception originally arose, or the fact that for many of them the original driver behind their exception status is no longer valid.

And football being footbal - nay, life being life - once a club has the benefit of such an exception, no-one takes it off them. Note the FAW getting their ass kicked in the High Court when they tried to force the Welsh exile clubs playing in England back into the new Welsh league.

By your arguement - for example, once a new league existed in Wales, the special circumstances that enabled them to play in the English structure (lack of a proper Welsh alternative) were no longer valid, so the FAW was corrrect in trying to force them back. Only, the law didn't see it that way.

Likewise for DCFC. The original driver of our exception - the fact that the IFA/IL were unreasnable in theoir desire to not see us back in their set-up - is gone now. As shown by the trembling knee rubbing from every IL fan on here at the prospect of having us back in your league. Yet just like the Welsh exiles, the fact the original driver behind out exceptiion is gone means not a jot. As once an exception exists in football, it doesn't get taken away. Otherwise, the 4 UK nations would have lost their individual seats on the FIFA governing committee years ago - as that is football's less defensible and most unjust 'exception'.

So you see - it is all deeply releavnt to Derry City. And all that aside - if you can't see the relevance of the fact that European law has actively supported the rights of football teams from one jurisdiuction to play in another (even in the face of virulent opposition to it from their home FA) then you're beyond debating with.

Now please - enough of the covetous stalking.

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Originally Posted by harps1954

So, if the 'old' Derry City is no more, does this mean that the 'new' Derry City is exactly that - a new club with no history. Does it mean that the 'old' Derry City is dead and that it's history died with it. Will it mean that the 'new' Derry City are founded/formed in 2009 and that all honours etc. are part of the 'old' Derry City - or is the 'new' Derry City just a continuation of the 'old' Derry City. Bascially what I'm asking is this: Is the Derry City that will play in next season's First Division a brand spanking new club which is setting off in it's first season, or is it the old club with all it's history under new ownership?

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Lets put the tired Irish League debate aside for a bit. The above are far more interesting questions.

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Originally Posted by harps1954

So, if the 'old' Derry City is no more, does this mean that the 'new' Derry City is exactly that - a new club with no history. Does it mean that the 'old' Derry City is dead and that it's history died with it. Will it mean that the 'new' Derry City are founded/formed in 2009 and that all honours etc. are part of the 'old' Derry City - or is the 'new' Derry City just a continuation of the 'old' Derry City. Bascially what I'm asking is this: Is the Derry City that will play in next season's First Division a brand spanking new club which is setting off in it's first season, or is it the old club with all it's history under new ownership?

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Those this mean that the Derry city playing in the first Div next season have never beaten Harps?:cool:

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Lamb - the pre-UEFA legacy bit is irrelavent.

No - the important thing all these rather common 'exceptions' have in common is that they currently benefit from an exception to the rule. Regardless of why that exception originally arose, or the fact that for many of them the original driver behind their exception status is no longer valid.

And football being footbal - nay, life being life - once a club has the benefit of such an exception, no-one takes it off them. Note the FAW getting their ass kicked in the High Court when they tried to force the Welsh exile clubs playing in England back into the new Welsh league.

By your arguement - for example, once a new league existed in Wales, the special circumstances that enabled them to play in the English structure (lack of a proper Welsh alternative) were no longer valid, so the FAW was corrrect in trying to force them back. Only, the law didn't see it that way.

Likewise for DCFC. The original driver of our exception - the fact that the IFA/IL were unreasnable in theoir desire to not see us back in their set-up - is gone now. As shown by the trembling knee rubbing from every IL fan on here at the prospect of having us back in your league. Yet just like the Welsh exiles, the fact the original driver behind out exceptiion is gone means not a jot. As once an exception exists in football, it doesn't get taken away. Otherwise, the 4 UK nations would have lost their individual seats on the FIFA governing committee years ago - as that is football's less defensible and most unjust 'exception'.

So you see - it is all deeply releavnt to Derry City. And all that aside - if you can't see the relevance of the fact that European law has actively supported the rights of football teams from one jurisdiuction to play in another (even in the face of virulent opposition to it from their home FA) then you're beyond debating with.

Now please - enough of the covetous stalking.

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all well and good.................but ONLY if your understanding of the similarities is actually the basis for any legal judgement. if not then your argument isn't as clearcut as you make it out and the differences between your club's and these other clubs' cases could have brought a different outcome.
is it just your opinion that situations that were pre-uefa or lack of domestic leagues made no difference, or do you know for fact that it made no difference?
is there any club that fitted neither of those scenarios that has won a case? i'm not saying i know for sure if it makes a difference, but i'm asking you if you know for sure that it doesn't?

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Originally Posted by corkharps

Those this mean that the Derry city playing in the first Div next season have never beaten Harps?:cool:

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For a month or two anyway.

Ah isn't the FAI a grand organisation altogether. Lie, cheat, spit, curse and fart on all the clubs around you if you are Derry City and what reward do you get? A little bit of a dressing down and a virtually free pass into the first division. Yet if you abide by the rules and run up some debt then feck off, wither and die if you are Kildare County.

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Originally Posted by harps1954

So, if the 'old' Derry City is no more, does this mean that the 'new' Derry City is exactly that - a new club with no history. Does it mean that the 'old' Derry City is dead and that it's history died with it. Will it mean that the 'new' Derry City are founded/formed in 2009 and that all honours etc. are part of the 'old' Derry City - or is the 'new' Derry City just a continuation of the 'old' Derry City. Bascially what I'm asking is this: Is the Derry City that will play in next season's First Division a brand spanking new club which is setting off in it's first season, or is it the old club with all it's history under new ownership?

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It's a non-question in fairness Harps1954.

Don't forget that our club arose from the ashes after a 13yr absence and joined an entirely separate league in a different footballing and political jurisdiction, yet that didn't affect any of our history, honours etc. So in your scenario, a quick change in legal trading terms would have no affect.

Claims on silverware in footbnall, only ever seem to be an issue when they're contested e.g. MK Dons asd AFC Wimbledon. And even in that case the Franchise agreed to relinquish all claims on Wimbledon's history and honours.

Sorry to disappoint. But at least you'll have the opportunity to try to undo oiut 98% undefeated record against Harps next season.... :)

The last few pages of this thread have been crazy reading to say the least

DCFC were forced to leave the IL in the 70's and over thirty years later it would appear that there are some on here that are suggesting that we are forced back into the IL again

Don't know how the actual process for re-admitting Derry works, but the fairest solution would be to ask both them and all A Championship teams to apply. Derry would win a unanimous vote on merit, and everything would be fair and above board.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Sorry to disappoint. But at least you'll have the opportunity to try to undo oiut 98% undefeated record against Harps next season.... :)

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And we'll hold on to our 100% 'Never kicked out of the league for massive, systematic cheating' record.

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Originally Posted by Scrufil

Ah isn't the FAI a grand organisation altogether. Lie, cheat, spit, curse and fart on all the clubs around you if you are Derry City and what reward do you get? A little bit of a dressing down and a virtually free pass into the first division. Yet if you abide by the rules and run up some debt then feck off, wither and die if you are Kildare County.

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That makes no sense at all. Kildare chose to feck off, Derry are fighting hard to stay alive.

I've always called on the FAi to be as hard as possibe with obvious cheating. Instant relegatin is fair enough for most "crimes" committed by our clubs, including Derry in this case. Kicking them out of the league serves no purpose whatsoever.

If they get their license, there's absolutely no reason why they shouldn't be allowed in the first division.

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Originally Posted by Scrufil

Ah isn't the FAI a grand organisation altogether. Lie, cheat, spit, curse and fart on all the clubs around you if you are Derry City and what reward do you get? A little bit of a dressing down and a virtually free pass into the first division. Yet if you abide by the rules and run up some debt then feck off, wither and die if you are Kildare County.

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You think the FAI are bad?

Whatever you think of John Delaney, he has probably done more, personally, for the club than the IL/IFA have in the forty odd years since the first time they wouldn't let us play in the Brandywell, against Anderlecht.

They weren't overly worried about there being no senior football in Northern Ireland's second city. Coleraine are tolerated, because they're part of the furniture, while the 'big teams' would rather the likes of Dungannon, Limavady and Institute played somewhere else (too far to travel don't you know). And of course they let Omagh Town feck off wither and die.

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Originally Posted by Dodge

That makes no sense at all. Kildare chose to feck off, Derry are fighting hard to stay alive.

I've always called on the FAi to be as hard as possibe with obvious cheating. Instant relegatin is fair enough for most "crimes" committed by our clubs, including Derry in this case. Kicking them out of the league serves no purpose whatsoever.

If they get their license, there's absolutely no reason why they shouldn't be allowed in the first division.

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Agree completely. It goes without saying that Derry City have been a tremendous asset to the LOI. They have been punished for rule breaking and restarting in the 1st division is appropriate.

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Originally Posted by corkharps

Those this mean that the Derry city playing in the first Div next season have never beaten Harps?:cool:

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No and what makes matters even more unfair, any points deduction we get will be off set by the usual 9 points we take from Harps;)

Surely this means that DCFC are out of the Setanta cup or will that be fudged as well I wonder..

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Originally Posted by Dodge

That makes no sense at all. Kildare chose to feck off, Derry are fighting hard to stay alive.

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Dodge you surprise me. Or do you have a source for this statement?

I have read, I think it was on the official forum, that the problems of Kildare were brought to the FAI. AFAIK we had a meeting with the FAI informing them of the serious financial state the club was in.
But we were told the FAI couldnt help us so the club was left with no choice but to fold.

From what I remember this was taken from a local radio interview given by manager Joey Somerville.

Looking at the events in Derry we were definitely not treated in any way similar but merely pushed aside.

Wet fish in face...

Its not the action towards the top "glamour" clubs but the obvious inaction towards the smaller clubs that p***es me off.:(

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Originally Posted by Nedser

This might be veering slightly off-topic, but TBH I'm not sure what the topic is anymore, so anyway. I don't know whether there was a written agreement between DCFC and Cliftonville, but WRT to the 2nd question, it's very hard to believe that Celtic would have given any guarantee about what squad they would bring. It was an international weekend, which means Celtic could not have guaranteed the availability of any player who might have got an international call up (which is most of their squad).

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22 Celtic players were on international duty that weekend. Add to that the known injuries at the time and any notion that this was the reason that Derry called off the game because of the squad is rubbish. The game was called off because Derry didn't get of their arse and market the game. At the time it was cancelled, less than 48 hours beforehand, they had only sold circa 200 tickets. Derry knew exactly what calliber of player to expect on an International weekend when they agreed to play them on that date.