Player eligibility row

To be 'fair' to them, the settlers in the North weren't just grumpy Presbyterians from Caledonia with an axe to grind....


And to answer Danny on the 'Scots-Irish', isn't it, 'Ulster-Scots' ??

Though you'd feel sorry that Ireland, Scotland or even England should be lumbered by any association.....
:eek:

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Scotch-Irish, isn't it?

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Is that a blend or a malt?

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Originally Posted by punkrocket

Is that a blend or a malt?

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It's an identity crisis

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Originally Posted by co. down green

And the IFA are continuing to make full use of the rules with Nigel Worthington’s selection & fielding of former Republic Of Ireland u16 international John Gorman in their friendly game against Turkey yesterday.

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(English-born) Gorman qualifies for NI on the basis that he has a grandparent from Coleraine. I do not know on what basis he formerly qualified for ROI.

Anyhow, all we ask is that the general principle whereby you may represent a Football Association outwith whose jurisdiction you were born only if you meet certain Eligibility Criteria (parent/grandparent/residence), be applied equally across all 208 Member Associations of FIFA.

Unfortunatly for you, there is no such general principle in the relevant FIFA articles of eligibility and the IFA are not part of that "we ask".
The IFA are not campaigning for the general principle of article 15 to be changed from "Any person holding a permanent nationality that is not dependent on residence" to players just born within the boundaries of an association.
They are asking for the current rules, as they are written, to be applied.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Anyhow, all we ask is that the general principle whereby you may represent a Football Association outwith whose jurisdiction you were born only if you meet certain Eligibility Criteria (parent/grandparent/residence), be applied equally across all 208 Member Associations of FIFA.

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How humble... As much as you'd like you delude yourself/promulgate the illusion that you're not being all that demanding or antagonistic with "all you gently ask", you know as well as everyone else - or, at least, should, because you clearly have the mental capacity to see beyond the blinkers - that that would require the revocation and re-wording of article 15 of the FIFA statutes. That is something that FIFA is evidently not prepared to do and CAS has no jurisdiction to force them to do so.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Anyhow, all we ask is that the general principle whereby you may represent a Football Association outwith whose jurisdiction you were born only if you meet certain Eligibility Criteria (parent/grandparent/residence), be applied equally across all 208 Member Associations of FIFA.

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You are wrong!

They are being applied equally. All people from NI have the birthright to an Irish nationality, as endorsed by the Unionist community in 1998, but also applied beforehand.

All the GFA agreement did was to confirm that the Unionist community and UK government ALSO recognised this fact (along with the northern nationalist community and Irish government who already held such a view, AND WAS ALREADY PART OF THE IRISH CONSTITUTION, AND THEREFORE LAW).

As the IFA are a BRITISH organisation (and display all the trappings of one, including proudly being reigning British champions), it is therefore logical that anyone who wishes to apply their IRISH nationality must do so by playing for the FAI team.

• The law is there
• There was a referendum
• It was endorsed by everyone (including YOUR community, doh :D)
• It will remain
• Get over it

Your (perceived) issue is with the Irish constitution/law and therefore the Irish government, not the FAI, and not FIFA!

You need to start petitioning members of Leinster House and trying to get some sympathetic TD's to get the Dail to vote for another referendum (which would be required under law) to change that aspect of the constitution.

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"An amendment must first be approved by both Houses of the Oireachtas (parliament), then submitted to a referendum, and finally signed into law by the President. Aside from constitutional referendums, the constitution also provides, in extraordinary circumstances, for a referendum on a normal bill known as the ordinary referendum, but none have yet occurred."

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So you need:

1. cross party support
2. approval from the Seanad (I would recommend you contact this man)
3. signed off by the President, Ardoyne's own Mary McAleese (who must have read the OWC forum)

You could also argue that Shane Duffy's "defection" is in extraordinary circumstances. There hasn't been one yet, but hey, why not give it a try?

Quis separabit

Ha ha, good comeback there.

Not sure why we would ever take a certain person seriously, given they regularly refer to us by the 'b-word' on the :rolleyes: ever delightful free-thinking OWB MB (with numerous others), and went to the time and not inconsiderable expense of creating a banner thanking a certain cheating Frenchman......

Whats funny/ironic(or maybe not at all) is the fact that EG is an intelligent, articulate and well-thought out poster, though we have seen in the past he doesn't fully understand the wording of certain articles. Yet he goes to the trouble that all the other narrow-minded, trouble making ignoramouses go to. That is the real worry, if you think about it.

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Originally Posted by geysir

Unfortunatly for you, there is no such general principle in the relevant FIFA articles of eligibility and the IFA are not part of that "we ask".
The IFA are not campaigning for the general principle of article 15 to be changed from "Any person holding a permanent nationality that is not dependent on residence" to players just born within the boundaries of an association.
They are asking for the current rules, as they are written, to be applied.

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I was not referring to what is stated in FIFA's Articles etc, ot how they have been interpreted/applied.
I was merely stating that the basic premise for international eligibility is that a player is eligible due to birthplace (only) to represent solely the National Association within whose jurisdiction he was born. For 207 Member Associations of FIFA, this means just one Member Association, but the 208th (NI), it means two (IFA and FAI).
Are you saying that this is incorrect?

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Originally Posted by dantheman

You are wrong!

They are being applied equally. All people from NI have the birthright to an Irish nationality, as endorsed by the Unionist community in 1998, but also applied beforehand.

All the GFA agreement did was to confirm that the Unionist community and UK government ALSO recognised this fact (along with the northern nationalist community and Irish government who already held such a view, AND WAS ALREADY PART OF THE IRISH CONSTITUTION, AND THEREFORE LAW).

As the IFA are a BRITISH organisation (and display all the trappings of one, including proudly being reigning British champions), it is therefore logical that anyone who wishes to apply their IRISH nationality must do so by playing for the FAI team.

• The law is there
• There was a referendum
• It was endorsed by everyone (including YOUR community, doh :D)
• It will remain
• Get over it

Your (perceived) issue is with the Irish constitution/law and therefore the Irish government, not the FAI, and not FIFA!

You need to start petitioning members of Leinster House and trying to get some sympathetic TD's to get the Dail to vote for another referendum (which would be required under law) to change that aspect of the constitution.

So you need:

1. cross party support
2. approval from the Seanad (I would recommend you contact this man)
3. signed off by the President, Ardoyne's own Mary McAleese (who must have read the OWC forum)

You could also argue that Shane Duffy's "defection" is in extraordinary circumstances. There hasn't been one yet, but hey, why not give it a try?

Quis separabit

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The GFA is utterly irrelevant to the question of international eligibility of Irish-born players, for two reasons (at least).
1. The GFA makes no reference to Football, neither do FIFA's Statutes etc make reference to the GFA;
2. FIFA presently recognises the right of someone born within NI to represent the FAI outwith the normal parentage/residence requirements, on account of the fact that such people are automatically entitled to Republic of Ireland citiizenship as a birthright. This birthright has been available since 1921 i.e. 77 years before the GFA was even conceived.

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Ha ha, good comeback there.

Not sure why we would ever take a certain person seriously, given they regularly refer to us by the 'b-word' on the :rolleyes: ever delightful free-thinking OWB MB (with numerous others), and went to the time and not inconsiderable expense of creating a banner thanking a certain cheating Frenchman......

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Yep, I've used what you sensitively term "the b-word" - and make no apology for it.
And the banner didn't cost me or any of the other originators a sou.
Though I would happily have contributed to it, both for the amusement it caused in France, and the amusement it caused in Ireland. Speaking of which latter, I am pleased to see that many ROI fans had the maturity and self-confidence to see the banner for what it was (a wind-up).
Whilst those ROI fans like yourself who are so thin-skinned that they immediately cried "handbal...", er "foul", merely added the cherry to the icing on the brioche

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

Whats funny/ironic(or maybe not at all) is the fact that EG is an intelligent, articulate and well-thought out poster, though we have seen in the past he doesn't fully understand the wording of certain articles. Yet he goes to the trouble that all the other narrow-minded, trouble making ignoramouses go to. That is the real worry, if you think about it.

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If by "certain articles" you are referring to the application by FIFA of their Eligibility Articles etc to the Irish situation, then I would point out that not once have I ever stated in any of my numerous posts on this topic on this forum that FIFA would come down on the side of the IFA.
In fact, I was always careful to state that I thought that they might go either way - even after John Delaney was quoted by RTE at Dublin Airport as stating that the FAI had "won the battle" (Gibson), but "lost the war" (eligibility generally) as he flew home to sack Steve Staunton the following day.
Neither have I denied it when FIFA subsequently appeared to do a U-turn from Delaney's understanding and come down ultimately on the side of the FAI.

Of course, accepting that something may be so, and accepting that something should be so, are two different things entirely - even if you appear incapable of discerning it from what I and others post in this respect.

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Or as they've already rebranded him, "Johnny Gorman", FFS.

Perish the thought he should 'sound' Irish....

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I see those bigots at Molyneux are calling him "Johnny", too. Maybe it's down to that Orange Bar Steward of a manager of theirs?
http://www.wolves.co.uk/page/Academy...,10307,00.html

Meanwhile:
http://www.tribalfootball.com/wolves...d-debut-872871

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

I was not referring to what is stated in FIFA's Articles etc, ot how they have been interpreted/applied.
I was merely stating that the basic premise for international eligibility is that a player is eligible due to birthplace (only) to represent solely the National Association within whose jurisdiction he was born. For 207 Member Associations of FIFA, this means just one Member Association, but the 208th (NI), it means two (IFA and FAI).
Are you saying that this is incorrect?

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That's entirely incorrect. I suggest you read article 15 again instead of assuming "basic premises for international eligibility".

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

That's entirely incorrect. I suggest you read article 15 again instead of assuming "basic premises for international eligibility".

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How is it incorrect?
Is it not correct that if you are born in France, you may ordinarily* only represent the FFF? Or in Germany only the DFB? In Brazil only the CFB?

Are you are aware of any other territory in the world within which being born automatically confers on a player the right to choose between representing two Member Associations of FIFA?


* - Obviously there are qualifications due to Dual Nationality (parentage/residence etc)

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

The GFA is utterly irrelevant to the question of international eligibility of Irish-born players, for two reasons (at least).
1. The GFA makes no reference to Football, neither do FIFA's Statutes etc make reference to the GFA;
2. FIFA presently recognises the right of someone born within NI to represent the FAI outwith the normal parentage/residence requirements, on account of the fact that such people are automatically entitled to Republic of Ireland citiizenship as a birthright. This birthright has been available since 1921 i.e. 77 years before the GFA was even conceived.

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Of course. The point is that it's a bit rich - childish and idiotic even - to hear accusations of southern irredentism being thrown about by Northern Ireland fans when the population of Northern Ireland, including a majority of the unionist community, democratically recognised the extra-territorial applicability of Irish citizenship over their jurisdiction. Likewise, it was recognised by the government of the UK. It's perfectly legitimate and recognised on a bi-lateral basis so to make out as if its indicative of some sort of aggressive or over-reaching "foreign policy" is simply nonsense.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

How is it incorrect?
Is it not correct that if you are born in France, you may ordinarily* only represent the FFF? Or in Germany only the DFB? In Brazil only the CFB?

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That is correct alright, but it doesn't represent what you tried to pass off as a basic premise of international eligibility in the face of a written rule (article 15) which quite clearly mentions nothing about birthplace, but rather, invokes a player's nationality. It is each individual nation's right to award citizenship to its citizens as it wishes. Despite my fairly basic research, Ireland's system appears to be a unique one internationally, but a perfectly legitimate one all the same.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

The GFA is utterly irrelevant to the question of international eligibility of Irish-born players, for two reasons (at least).
1. The GFA makes no reference to Football, neither do FIFA's Statutes etc make reference to the GFA;
2. FIFA presently recognises the right of someone born within NI to represent the FAI outwith the normal parentage/residence requirements, on account of the fact that such people are automatically entitled to Republic of Ireland citiizenship as a birthright. This birthright has been available since 1921 i.e. 77 years before the GFA was even conceived.

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The GFA may not have changed the constitutional status of citizenship as a birthright but it did effectively legitimise Ireland's right to offer it and that has to have an effect on any lawmaker's thinking.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

* - Obviously there are qualifications due to Dual Nationality (parentage/residence etc)

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Why are those forms of dual nationality superior to the automatic birthright of those born on the island of Ireland?

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Yep, I've used what you sensitively term "the b-word" - and make no apology for it.
And the banner didn't cost me or any of the other originators a sou.
Though I would happily have contributed to it, both for the amusement it caused in France, and the amusement it caused in Ireland. Speaking of which latter, I am pleased to see that many ROI fans had the maturity and self-confidence to see the banner for what it was (a wind-up).
Whilst those ROI fans like yourself who are so thin-skinned that they immediately cried "handbal...", er "foul", merely added the cherry to the icing on the brioche

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Well, nice hypocrisy by you. And your bretheren. Especially coming on here and all.
No wonder the likes of Duffy (& undoubtedly many more) have left behind the paranoia and control freakery displayed on OWB.

As for that banner, whether it cost you or not, some moron went to the effort of producing it. Notice the North's 'fans' didn't go to the effort of producing one, say to mark the exploits of say, Best, Dougan or Healy.
And if you really think it wasn't a handball, well you really do need to change your prescription!