Troy Parrott F AZ Alkmaar b.2002

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Originally Posted by Kingdom

Then you've no understanding of the matter at hand, at all, because it's entirely relevant to this particular player, from that particular environment, and from that particular community.
and where are you pulling the 125 games at Serie A/PL stat from?

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It isn't relevant Kingdom. I want to engage with this idea that Parrott is better than Kulusevski, but instead I got a quote from Parrott that he was bucking his game up, trying 110%, etc. It's great that he's working harder on his game and it seems to be working, but none of that makes him technically better than Kulusevski. None of it has anything to do with technical ability. And I (and others) get a bit cynical/tired of Irish players being hyped up excessively pretty much because they're Irish.

Kulusevski has 124 senior games for Atalanta, Parma, Juve and Spurs per his wiki.

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Originally Posted by Razors left peg

Ive not watched Kulusevski so I cant give a comparison. Did he play for Sweden u21s against Ireland with Parrott in the team a few years back under Kenny? If so back then Parrott looked probably the best player on either team

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Yes. Parrott started the game on the bench (which was to the utter surprise of the Swedes – they rated him so highly). Mind you, Conor Coventry was identified as our key player for the team’s functioning.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

It isn't relevant Kingdom. I want to engage with this idea that Parrott is better than Kulusevski, but instead I got a quote from Parrott that he was bucking his game up, trying 110%, etc. It's great that he's working harder on his game and it seems to be working, but none of that makes him technically better than Kulusevski. None of it has anything to do with technical ability. And I (and others) get a bit cynical/tired of Irish players being hyped up excessively pretty much because they're Irish.

Kulusevski has 124 senior games for Atalanta, Parma, Juve and Spurs per his wiki.

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Have I said Parrott is better than Kulusevski? I think Parrott is better (technically) ability-wise – one aspect of his play. This does not equate to Parrott being the better player. Indeed, I questioned in my initial post yesterday whether he’ll longer-term get into the Spurs team and when asked (by you) if Parrott is potentially better than Kulusevski, I responded “not necessarily”. For the record, I thought Parrott was poor, borderline dreadful, from what I saw during his time with Millwall and commented in my initial poor that “his adjustment to senior football has been slow to say the very least”, commenting it is only recently, the past 4 to 6 weeks, that noises “suggest he has turned a corner”. Further commenting that “he really needs to kick on from here” is not excessively hyping him up. He has a long way to go to recover the standing he had when on the fringes on the Spurs team.

We can all read Wikipedia pages btw.

I was assuming the "better technically" in my post as you've clarified that.

I still don't see anything to back it up - he's been anonymous whenever he's played for Ireland (no particularly impressive technique on evidence), he was dropped by MK Dons late last year, and while it's great to see he seems to be adjusting to the third tier well now, the gap between his level and Kulusevski's is enormous. I don't see how a recent burst of (welcome) form can translate to being technically better than someone with 125 games across Serie A, the Premier League and the Champions League. You can't rack up that many games by age 21 without being technically quite good.

And while I take Kingdom's point that technique can be an objective view hard to put into words, it isn't remotely covered by someone saying three times in the one quote that they're now applying themselves 110%.

So at the end, we're left with another seemingly outrageous claim about a young Irish player - a foot speciality lately - with not even a clip or two to really back it up. You can see why people aren't convinced surely?

Tiring self-appointed police are quick to dismiss positivity hints surrounding Irish players, yet willingly gush over foreign players they nothing about beyond a quick skim of a Wikipedia page.

To inform Kulusevski’s Wikipedia page - he made the most of a move to, at the time, a newly promoted Parma team (Parma’s third promotion in 3 years – (did Parma need to fill out the quality of the squad for Serie A and, from that, a higher-than-normal willingness to give promising players the opportunity?)). This attracted the Juventus interest. He has made plenty of appearances for Juventus but from the bench – he has not established himself as a first team starter with Juventus and hence, I suspect, the willingness of Juventus to let him go to Spurs on a long-term loan deal. He does have plenty of senior caps for Sweden but he is arguably still somewhat on the fringes and only recently showing indications of establishing himself in the first 11. If he establishes himself as a first team regular at Spurs, likely if Conte stays at the helm, he will become an automatic regular for Sweden – because Sweden like us, don’t have a huge talent pool of exceptional players, and a Swedish regular for a middle of the road PL team like Spurs is sufficient for automatic selection at national team level.

However, and although he is getting his game at Spurs, his performances have been patchy – some very good performances with less than good performances, for example, Boro cup game rating: “Dejan Kulusevski – 5.5 – Not his best game in a Spurs shirt. He struggled to keep up with the pace of the game and gave the ball away a lot in possession. Definitely had some nice moments but looked a case of a lot of football in a short space of time since joining.” - https://www.spurs-web.com/spurs-news...middlesbrough/) and sub appearance against Southampton – “Dejan Kulusevski – 5 – Kulusevski didn’t really add a lot and Spurs missed Moura when he went off. - https://www.spurs-web.com/spurs-news...o-southampton/

All the above is not to disregard his achievements to date. He is a good player in the infancy stage of his career, still developing consistency and his full potential.

As for Parrott, I like the look of him (haven’t read the Wikipedia page), but he needs to kick on. An outrageous claim that may be.

We should all be a **** a Hoop about Troy Parrott’s recent form.

I'd be quite happy to take "patchy" form at Spurs (two goals and three assists in six games) over patchy form at MK Dons (two goals in five months) tbh. Nothing in Parrott's career matches to what Kulusevski has done. It's all at a much lower level, which makes it very hard to compare technical ability - a lower level gives you more time to look good for example, and that's a big factor. Parrott has done next to nothing at senior international level against better players, for example. Him giving 110% says nothing about his technical ability.

There's "positivity hints" and there's the overly-effusive praise many here have been quick to heap on any young Irish player who gets a few games for a mundane club to be honest. Parrott is improving, which is great. But let's not go full "45-60 international goals" on him like. And challenging those comparisons isn't negativity or the thought police or other nonsense like that; it's trying to bring a bit of realism into things.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Nothing in Parrott's career matches to what Kulusevski has done.

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Troy Parrot – 10 senior caps, 2 goals
Dejan Kulusevski – 20 senior caps, 1 goal
Source: Wikipedia.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

There's "positivity hints" and there's the overly-effusive praise many here have been quick to heap on any young Irish player who gets a few games for a mundane club to be honest. Parrott is improving, which is great. But let's not go full "45-60 international goals" on him like. And challenging those comparisons isn't negativity or the thought police or other nonsense like that; it's trying to bring a bit of realism into things.

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Is this directed at me? I've recently suggested on this forum that he could be moved down to the bolster the U21s ......

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

I'd be quite happy to take "patchy" form at Spurs (two goals and three assists in six games) over patchy form at MK Dons (two goals in five months) tbh. Nothing in Parrott's career matches to what Kulusevski has done. It's all at a much lower level, which makes it very hard to compare technical ability - a lower level gives you more time to look good for example, and that's a big factor. Parrott has done next to nothing at senior international level against better players, for example. Him giving 110% says nothing about his technical ability.

There's "positivity hints" and there's the overly-effusive praise many here have been quick to heap on any young Irish player who gets a few games for a mundane club to be honest. Parrott is improving, which is great. But let's not go full "45-60 international goals" on him like. And challenging those comparisons isn't negativity or the thought police or other nonsense like that; it's trying to bring a bit of realism into things.

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Firstly... this debate is nonsense. Kulusevski is performing regularly at a level higher than Parrott. That means something. Parrott has two years to catch up. That means something. They will both likely go on to have decent international and club careers.

Why i am quoting you, Stu, is that you have included Kulusevski's goals and assists in 6 games and then compared to Parrotts goals in five months (goals only - despite having at least two or three assists with those goals and assists likely coming in the last 5 games). For one of the players being compared, you deleted one indicator of technical ability from the statistical argument that you put forward. That is a disingenuous form of argument.

The Anto Stokes point is good, Roy Keane famously said that Stokes was the technically best footballer in the Sunderland squad. He’s also a bit similar to Troy in that neither has electric pace.

I’m stretching the point entirely but no one would have batted an eye if someone said Troy was a better technical footballer than Shane Duffy. We can all separate technical ability from overall ability.

I think Troy’s issue is and struggles are that he needs to figure out what he is. He’s unlikely to have the pace, height or strength to be a Number 9 in a top two English league. I don’t think right now that he quite has the vision to be a creative number 10 lying deeper as a third midfielder. I’ve never seen it work out well out wide, probably due to the lack of pace. For ireland underage, he was at his best playing off Adam Idah as the Robbie Keane to his Niall Quinn or Dimitar Berbatov. But you don’t really get many teams playing 4-4-2, so I guess you’re looking for a team playing 3-5-2. Maybe I’m being harsh on him but for the most part, he’s looking like a good technical footballer playing out of position wherever he’s gone

All good points. I think you need to let him drift to get the best out of him, let him do his own thing so to speak (I recall McCarthy barking at him to stay in position against NZ but that countered his natural tendency to "drift"). But he needs to earn that role to be given that responsibility. And to get there, he needs to conform to team structures which he has struggled to do in senior football to date – (bar recent positive noises).

hes playing in his best position with mk dons imo . 3-4-2-1 / 3-4-3 with him inverting from the right. hes definitely that roamy kind of player behind a striker as opposed the being the main man up top. id be disappointed not to see him start in the coming windows friendlies in a similar role.

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Originally Posted by Jd2793

hes playing in his best position with mk dons imo . 3-4-2-1 / 3-4-3 with him inverting from the right. hes definitely that roamy kind of player behind a striker as opposed the being the main man up top. id be disappointed not to see him start in the coming windows friendlies in a similar role.

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Got my post in a split second before yours, but we’re seeing the same thing. Harping back to Kulusevski I know, but he started out in a central position but got his opportunity playing out wide - ie he can effectively adapt to that asked of him. The question is can Parrott adapt? - as we haven't seen that in his senior games so far. Great he talking about 110% and all that, as maybe the attitude and application wasn’t there before, but until he finds conformity to structured attacking roles, he’s as good as playing Duffy as a wing forward. But again, the recent noises about his performances sound good.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

There's "positivity hints" and there's the overly-effusive praise many here have been quick to heap on any young Irish player who gets a few games for a mundane club to be honest. Parrott is improving, which is great. But let's not go full "45-60 international goals" on him like. And challenging those comparisons isn't negativity or the thought police or other nonsense like that; it's trying to bring a bit of realism into things.

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This is not a new thing by any means!

I thought Stephen McPhail and Richie Partridge were destined for 50-cap careers at least. Thought Paddy McCarthy would be the Irish captain by the age of 25. Thought Darren Potter, Owen Garvan and Darron Gibson would be our midfield for the entire post-Staunton era. Thought Daryl Murphy would end up outscoring Kevin Doyle for Ireland once they both broke through, and Anthony Pilkington was the answer to our prayers on the wing.

I also thought Seamus Coleman wasn't up to much as a defender (after Di Maria roasted him in a UEFA Cup game around 2010) and that Shane Long was too raw and technically poor to ever be a long-term Ireland striker.

We all do this. It's part of the fun.

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Originally Posted by ifk101

Troy Parrot – 10 senior caps, 2 goals
Dejan Kulusevski – 20 senior caps, 1 goal
Source: Wikipedia.

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Yes - both Parrott's goals against a tiring part-time Andorra, and Kulusevski's against Croatia in a Nations League game, seeing as you crave context.

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Originally Posted by ifk101

Is this directed at me? I've recently suggested on this forum that he could be moved down to the bolster the U21s ......

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The comments about positivity hints, thought police, and Parrott's technical ability were made at the poster who made those points, yes.

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Originally Posted by SkStu

Firstly... this debate is nonsense. Kulusevski is performing regularly at a level higher than Parrott. That means something. Parrott has two years to catch up. That means something. They will both likely go on to have decent international and club careers.

Why i am quoting you, Stu, is that you have included Kulusevski's goals and assists in 6 games and then compared to Parrotts goals in five months (goals only - despite having at least two or three assists with those goals and assists likely coming in the last 5 games). For one of the players being compared, you deleted one indicator of technical ability from the statistical argument that you put forward. That is a disingenuous form of argument.

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I agree with your first point.

On the stats - I don't have the assist details for Parrott. Happy to add them in, though of course they're still in the third tier.

You can say it's a disingenuous form of argument - I don't think it is. I took Kulusevski's Spurs stats for convenience and compared them to how long Parrott took to score the same amount of goals at a lower level. Certainly it's not a complete argument, and I don't claim it is, but I think other arguments - such as the how having more time in League One than the Premier skews comparisons of technique, or how having played 100+ Serie A/Champions League games before joining Spurs implies a fairly decent base level of technique - would come to a similar conclusion. I've challenged ifk101 for a counter argument, and all that's come back is a quote from Parrott saying he's trying 110%. Now that's a disingenuous argument.

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Originally Posted by Supreme feet

This is not a new thing by any means!

I thought Stephen McPhail and Richie Partridge were destined for 50-cap careers at least. Thought Paddy McCarthy would be the Irish captain by the age of 25. Thought Darren Potter, Owen Garvan and Darron Gibson would be our midfield for the entire post-Staunton era. Thought Daryl Murphy would end up outscoring Kevin Doyle for Ireland once they both broke through, and Anthony Pilkington was the answer to our prayers on the wing.

I also thought Seamus Coleman wasn't up to much as a defender (after Di Maria roasted him in a UEFA Cup game around 2010) and that Shane Long was too raw and technically poor to ever be a long-term Ireland striker.

We all do this. It's part of the fun.

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You were probably justified on McPhail in fairness - he had a rough time with injuries. Partridge was a big hope for a while at Liverpool too.

But 50 caps as an expectation is actually quite moderate and sensible. It's not the same as 50 goals, or the Parrott) Kulusevski comparison.

I think you can have some fun talking up players and still not get utterly carried away like has happened here, as a glance through some of the underage threads will show. There's a balance.

Well said Supreme Feet. Stu, read the room.

Do you not think there's a difference between SupremeFeet's "McPhail could get 50 caps" (entirely reasonable) and "Ferguson could get 50 goals" or "Parrott is technically better than Kulusevski"?

Cos I think there's a huge one. And other posters seem to agree -

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Originally Posted by Jd2793

kulusevski has played nearly 6000 minutes at serie a level. parrott has had one good loan spell in league 1 , can you stop with the nonsense.

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Originally Posted by kennedmc

It's a complete load of nonsense. One of them has already played 100 games at serie A and pl level scoring 17 goals! Outstanding for an attacking midfielder / winger at 21 years of age.

The other (less than a year younger) is finding his feet in league one. Hopefully Troy will make it as a PL player in a few years but he has a good bit still to go.

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Though I think it was ifk who claimed recently that Buffon in his prime would concede as many goals in the LSL as a standard LSL keeper, so maybe not quite the best judge of player...

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Originally Posted by Supreme feet

This is not a new thing by any means!

I thought Stephen McPhail and Richie Partridge were destined for 50-cap careers at least. Thought Paddy McCarthy would be the Irish captain by the age of 25. Thought Darren Potter, Owen Garvan and Darron Gibson would be our midfield for the entire post-Staunton era. Thought Daryl Murphy would end up outscoring Kevin Doyle for Ireland once they both broke through, and Anthony Pilkington was the answer to our prayers on the wing.

I also thought Seamus Coleman wasn't up to much as a defender (after Di Maria roasted him in a UEFA Cup game around 2010) and that Shane Long was too raw and technically poor to ever be a long-term Ireland striker.

We all do this. It's part of the fun.

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I thought Idah was going to be crap and thought Connolly was going to be brilliant. I think I was way off.

Theres been plenty over the years. Earlier this season I had written off Obafemi and thought Parrott might not be as good as we thought either. There are definite signs recently that both could still be excellent.

Hell, I even thought Lee Trundle would be amazing at one point!

Everyone does it. I thought Ger Crossley would get around 100 International caps with maybe 50-60 goals. He was that good. Or so I was led to believe by the likes of Saint and Greavsie.... I still have a few boxes of Ger apparel I thought would be worth a fortune one day in storage. I just can't part with it.

True story...about 10 years ago, pre pandemic, I was dining at Crackbird in Dubs and ran into Ger. He was gracious. I have a picture somewhere.