Roy Keane

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Originally Posted by Junior

Just out of interest Emmet, who is it that you have professionally managed? Just so I can ascertain whether your analysis of management is worth listening to/reading or not.

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Man Utd, AC Milan and Juve...

Kidding of course...

Who did you manage?

You missed my point entirely, but I'm not surprised. You have people on sites like this saying Keane did a bad job, he should have qualified for the Europa League, he should have done this or that.

And I am saying that's a superficial analysis. If you dig deeper, you will see that to do that you have to score points against some of the top four teams, which is very difficult to do. You also have to do better than teams like Aston Villa and Man City. Then you have Everton, Spurs. Then you have tricky teams like Boltan who even the big boys struggle against.

It's an incredibily tough division and anyone who says otherwise is an idiot.

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Originally Posted by Emmet7

Man Utd, AC Milan and Juve...

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all on football manager :D

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Originally Posted by Emmet7

I shouldn't bite either.

So you think Richard Wright is a great goalkeeper then? The guy is famous for letting in soft goals at Arsenal, Everton and seems to be continuing on that form.

And it's clear you didn't read what I said about Clough and Ferguson, and Ferguson hardly belongs to what you call a golden era of football. The fundamental principles of football never change, something you seem to have a problem with and your analysis is superficial and restricted to simplistic Keane bashing, or analysis that is mere comic book hero or comic book villain, good manager or bad manager. I for one get tired of such analysis.

Last week we all had to listen to people saying Rafa Benitiz has spend millions at Liverpool and apart from a supposedly flukey Champions League he was a poor manager. This week we have the same pundits and commentators saying what a great manager Benitiz is. It's the same usual Bullsh*t artists who jump on the manager bashing or manager adoration bandwagons, ie people who know Sweet F.A. about football.

When you have professional management experience under your belt, and get out of your armchair, then maybe your analysis of Keane's management might be worth listening to. Until then you should acknowledge that the Premiership is the toughest most competitive league in the world bar none, and you are competing against clubs with the most expensive squads bar none. Even 80 million spent is pittance compared to Man Utd, Chelsea, Man City, Liverpool and so on.

Yeh but if you want to go down the route of comic book heroes and comic book villains, that's fine, but I won't go down it with you. Supposedly bigger clubs than Sunderland, eg Newcastle, Middlesborough and Leeds are languishing outside the top division, yet people want to bash Keane for keeping Sunderland up.

It's a tough division, when you recognise that, then we can talk further.

And I have said before I am no fan of Keane, but to say he is a bad manager based on 12 or so games is pure rubbish. If the chairman lets him stay the season, we can all decide at the end of the season.

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What utter bullsh1t. I read exactly what you wrote about Ferguson and Clough but if you don't believe that the game has changed since Clough took over Derby in the 70's and Ferguson took over at Man U in the 80's, particularly when it comes to the amount of time managers get in a job when results aren't going their way then you're an even bigger idiot then your half baked ramblings on this thread amongst others would indicate. Go and check what other teams spent in comparison to Sunderland when RK was in charge and come back to me when you base what your talking about on facts. Check what those teams above Sunderland when RK left outside the top 4 spent and all.

'When you have professional management experience under your belt, and get out of your armchair' :rolleyes: Give me a break.....

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Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er

What utter bullsh1t. I read exactly what you wrote about Ferguson and Clough but if you don't believe that the game has changed since Clough took over Derby in the 70's and Ferguson took over at Man U in the 80's, particularly when it comes to the amount of time managers get in a job when results aren't going their way then you're an even bigger idiot then your half baked ramblings on this thread amongst others would indicate. Go and check what other teams spent in comparison to Sunderland when RK was in charge and come back to me when you base what your talking about on facts. Check what those teams above Sunderland when RK left outside the top 4 spent and all.

'When you have professional management experience under your belt, and get out of your armchair' :rolleyes: Give me a break.....

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What are you raving about??

You are on about this golden era you keep talking about.

Right some facts for ya so... Brian Clough bought the first million pound player in Britain, Trevor Francis. He also bought the most expensive goalie in Britain, Peter Shilton. He had a record of buying in players rather than building from scratch. Ferguson has largely bought success. Mourinho bought success at Chelsea. Wenger when he was successful bought success with Berkamp, Henry, Pires, and so on.

Shankly bought success, Paisley bought success, Daglish, Souness and so on, again in your golden era.

The problem you fail to understand is 80 million nowadays cannot buy you a league title, nor a top four finish nor even Europa League qualification.

I keep repeating myself here. The teams Keane was competing against, the West Hams, Boltans, Newcastles, Aston Villas have easily spent 80 million in the last 5-10 years if not more. As has Middlesborough and Leeds. There are teams who have spent more money than Keane now in the Championship and League One.

You have to splash the cash just to stay in the premiership. He started off at Sunderland with League One players such as David Connolly who were never going to do it in the Premiership. He was forced to compete against teams in the Premier League, the value of which were several hundred million Euro. Even the value of a team like Aston Villa is over 100 million.

You need to spend big just to compete.

The argument that he spent more in a season than other clubs is an incredibly incredibilty stupid argument. This is not feckin League Two, or one step above non-league. This is the Premier League, the richest, toughest most competitive League in the world.

I've wasted enough time arguing on this thread, and countering dumb simplistic arguments, I won't waste any more arguing with people who think managing in the Premier League is a doddle.

And for the last time I repeat this, it's not what the guy spent but the value of the team at the end of the season. The value of the Everton, Villa, Tottenham teams were worth over 100 million. Villa had Gareth Barry for fecks sake, they didn't need to spend big, ditto Tottenham and Everton who had spent big over a long stretch. Keane inherited poor players at Sunderland, very poor players, the same players who were relegated the previous season with the lowest points total in Premier League history.

Much of the money he spent was to get them promoted by buying prove Championship Players such as Connolly. He then had to buy more players who would do a job in the Premiership. If you are competing against a team of players such as at Villa who are worth 100 million, your own team needs to be worth that as well.

That's the reality of Premier League Management. Mick McCarthy who isn't a bad manager found out that without spending money you go straight down again.

Right I've wasted enough time on this thread.

At present Ipswich are 6 points off Barnsley in 20th and have lost fewer games than the immediate 5 teams above them. The club have the finance and playing staff to at least pull their socks up by 20 games and at least be out of the relegation placings. It would be fair to say that a team desperately struggling for form and points by the turn of the year will almost always sack the manager. Otherwise the debate is a nonsense, leave it to the actual fans of Ipswich to debate the rights and wrongs of their manager and everyone else just follow their own side.

Ipswich will win on Saturday, mark my words.

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Originally Posted by Emmet7

it's not what the guy spent but the value of the team at the end of the season.

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I prefer to think that it's not so much what you spend, it's what you get for it.

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Originally Posted by Emmet7

The problem you fail to understand is 80 million nowadays cannot buy you a league title, nor a top four finish nor even Europa League qualification.

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Just as a sample to prove what utter garbage you're spouting, Roy Hodgson spent £27m (under £20m net) over one and a half seasons after taking over a Fulham side heading for relegation in December 2007 and qualified them for the Europa league in 7th last season.

Your posts are so full of uninformed nonsense I really couldn't be arsed debunking the rest.

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Originally Posted by Emmet7

When you have professional management experience under your belt, and get out of your armchair, then maybe your analysis of Keane's management might be worth listening to.

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Originally Posted by Emmet7

Man Utd, AC Milan and Juve...

Kidding of course...

Who did you manage?

You missed my point entirely, but I'm not surprised. You have people on sites like this saying Keane did a bad job, he should have qualified for the Europa League, he should have done this or that.

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Did I miss your point entirely? really? Were you not implying that unless youve managed someone professionally your opinion isnt worth a $hite?

I havent managed anyone but then again I didnt imply that you had to have doneso to have a valid opinion.

For the record, I havent posted an opinion on whether RK has done well or otherwise in professional management but I suppose you failed to see that whilst on your little crusade.

I was a big fan of Keane as a player, I thought he did well to bring Sunderland up in his first management role, I was very disappointed with how he left Sunderland and thought that it showed he was lacking in some of the qualities in management that we knew he had as a player - the fight. Regardless, I hope he does well with Ipswich - early days lets see how it goes.

Here's a list a Keane's transfers at Sunderland and how they faired

Dwight Yorke-£200,000-Success(sort of)
Ross Wallace-£1.1m-Success
David Connolly-£1.9m-Success (Champioship level)
Graham Kavanagh-£500,000-Flop
Stan Varga-Free-Flop
Lewin Nyantga-Loan-Flop
Liam Miller-Free-Flop
Anthony Stokes-£2m-Flop
Carlos Edwards-£1.7m-Success (Championship level)
Jonny Evans-Loan-Success
Danny Simpson-Loan-Success
Stern John-£300,000-Success(Championship level)
Michael Chopra-£5m-Flop
Craig Gordon-£9m-Success
Kenwyne Jones-£6m-Success
Paul McShane-£2.5m-Flop
Danny Higginbotham-£3m-Flop
Dickson Etuthu-£1.5m-Flop (Success at Fulham!)
Ian Harte-Free-Flop
Andy Cole-Free-Flop
Roy O'Dovovan-£650,000-Flop
Kieran Richardson-£5.5m-Success
Phil Bardsley-£2m-Success
Rade Prica-£2m-Flop
Andy Reid-£4m-Success
El Hadji Diouf-£2.5m-Flop
Pascal Cimbonda-£4.5m-Flop
Teemu Taino-£4m-Flop(Injury prone)
Steed Malbranque-£6m-Success
Anton Ferdinand-£8m-Flop
George McCartney-£5.5m-Flop
David Healy-£2m-Flop
Djbril Cisse-Loan-Success(sort of)

Compare that to say Steve Bruce spending at Sunderland (£30m-£14.5m=net£15.5m). If Keane is a proven manager then Bruce is the best manager in England! If Keane is struggling because of the squad he took off from Magilton what about Bruce? Better yet compare Keanes spending to Coyle or Pulis.

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Originally Posted by Colbert Report

Ipswich will win on Saturday, mark my words.

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Well, they're going to have to win sometime. ;)

Also they have a game coming up soon against Wednesday and that's a guaranteed 3 pointer. I expect them to be mid table by the new year. One win almost gets them out of the bottom three. A play off position is still a realistic proposition with some signings when the transfer window opens again. WBA and Newcastle should be automatic promotions. The rest are stuttering. It's too early to write his epitaph unless Ipswich don't record a win in the next 3.

Ipswich beat Derby 1-0. Is he a great manager now?;)

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Originally Posted by Colbert Report

Ipswich will win on Saturday, mark my words.

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BOOM goes the dynamite.

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Originally Posted by Colbert Report

BOOM goes the dynamite.

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hope you put money on it :)

I think things have been too quiet on the Roy Keane front ;)

Independent.ie

Under-fire Keane's rage burns

By James Lawton, Thursday November 25 2010

Sometimes you have to wonder where Roy Keane stores up his anger. Maybe he gets it out of the fridge or perhaps from a big box next to the dog biscuits.

From wherever it comes, though, it is beginning to look like one of the biggest factors in his continued failure to begin to match, off the field, any of the certainties he produced so often on it.

If he can't lighten up, then how can those young players he has brought into the great trials of their careers in an effort to kick-start his latest stumble of a managerial foray -- one that reached a new level of crisis with a third straight defeat for his Ipswich Town at Hull and four losses in five games -- be expected to thrive?

This is Keane reflecting on the increasing tendency of the Ipswich fans to complain about the becalmed status of their team: "They can boo me all they want. I never went into football to be popular; in fact it drives me on and I bloody enjoy it."

So far, no great problem -- there's nothing wrong with a bit of jaw-thrusting self-belief. If a football man who once single-handedly destroyed Juventus -- who were not a bad team at the time -- in a Champions League semi-final in Turin doesn't have a healthy sense of his own ability and resilience, there's not a lot that can be said on his behalf.

Corrosive

The trouble centres on what seems ever more likely to be the most corrosive element in Keane's approach to his football -- and maybe his life.


He went on to say: "I remember when I played for Ireland I got booed against Iceland because one reporter, who was an idiot and was pals with the manager, did a piece saying the fans should boo me. And guess what?
They all booed. Like sheep -- first one or two and the rest followed."

Imagine, if you had a career like Keane's, producing so clinically but also so angrily the memory of when the cheering died, however momentarily.
Everyone is damned, of course -- the idiot journalist, the idiot, sheep-like fans, and by a logical extension, the idiot manager of Ireland.

So what, really, has anything meant to Keane in terms of his relationship with the world beyond his own hard and bitter perspective?

Did he value the cheers of 'idiot' fans when he led Manchester United and Ireland so dynamically on the field, when, virtually on one leg, he guided his nation to the 2002 World Cup to the exclusion of an infinitely more gifted Holland?

Was there any value in the unstinted praise of Bobby Charlton who, in the directors box at the Stadio delle Alpi, stood and cheered his performance for most of the drama in Turin?

Keane was of course no more forgiving of Mick McCarthy in that Saipan meltdown. According to Keane, his former Irish team-mate was a crap player and a crap coach.

All that anger, all that contempt and maybe the first emotion is only intensified by the fact that while McCarthy fights on in his effort to preserve Wolverhampton's place in the top flight, with more than a modicum of philosophical resignation and humour, Keane continues to languish within the walls he has built for himself.

In East Anglia he is as short of impact -- and, it has to be said, class -- as when he stormed away from Sunderland without a kind word for anyone he left behind, including a generous American owner and benefactor, and Niall Quinn, who had set up his opportunity despite being labelled 'Mother Teresa'.

The bottom line is written in large and sombre lettering. Everyone else is wrong.

If you eat prawn sandwiches and go to football for light relief, a bit of a diversion, you are wrong.

If you get worked up about an apparent lack of progress in the team upon whom you lavish at least some of your dreams and not inconsiderable amounts of your hard-earned money, you are wrong.

If you think that Wayne Rooney was wrong to hold Manchester United to ransom, after playing diabolically and behaving diabolically, you are also wrong.

However, players, even those picking up the best part of £250,000 a week, are not wrong to toss the concept of loyalty into the dustbin because they are treated like pieces of meat -- always have been, always will be. On the other hand, United are the greatest club in the world and demand absolute respect.

This was Keane after a second straight loss and the first sound of boos:
"Last week we had four players from last season's youth team and another four loan players still learning their trade. The fans have a right to express their opinion. I've no problem with that.

"We can't kid ourselves -- if we're not performing we're going to get criticised. But what the fans did last week was wrong in my opinion. They didn't support the team. How can you support the team by booing? It's wrong and way over the top."

Extraordinary

You might say that going over the top is Keane's specialist subject, one maybe exemplified by his extraordinary justification of the rancid, dangerous vendetta he waged against someone else he deemed to be wrong -- Alf-Inge Haaland.

Keane stored up his resentment against Haaland for over three years, then delivered an atrocious tackle which he confessed was intended to "hurt". No remorse, no reflection -- Haaland had been wrong, Keane right. Same old belligerent story.

So it goes, on and on, but when does Keane stop and think that maybe the world is not actively involved in a conspiracy against him? Does he ever reflect on the gifts that the game has brought him, the life of ease and security which now can only be a fantasy for many of his compatriots, not to mention the frustrated Ipswich fans?

The question - especially ahead of this weekend's crucial derby against Norwich - seems reasonable and is provoked not least by the unavoidable impression that the anger is building only on itself. When everyone is wrong, it helps to have a little evidence that you might just be right.
Unfortunately, at Ipswich it remains as elusive as ever.

- James Lawton

I like James lawton but that article is not exactly insightful

Especially since I think they are around only 3 points off the play-offs. Two straight wins and they are back in contention and the criticism is forgotton. It's a funny old game.

Roy Keane goes missing at Ipswich Town

http://www.joe.ie/football/football-...-town-008008-1

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Ipswich Town manager Roy Keane hasn’t been seen at the club training ground since their defeat to Preston at the weekend, according to club captain David Norris.

The under-pressure manager hasn’t been in contact with the players following the loss in the nPower Championship despite the squad holding a crisis meeting yesterday.

“We haven’t seen the manager since the game,” said Norris.

“I think the manager was especially disappointed after the weekend. I think it was a good chance for us to turn it around and we haven’t done that.”

The Tractor Boys continue to free fall in the Championship with the defeat to bottom side Preston their sixth straight league defeat.

Speculation has been rife in weeks over the security of Keano’s job and the pressure seems to have taken its toll on the legend.

Norris, however, is of the opinion that Keano has handling the situation well and tkes the brunt of the stick.

“When you’re on a run like we are, everyone’s going to be under pressure, particularly the manager,” Norris said.

He’s happy to take the flak and deflect the pressure of the results on to himself to take the pressure off us so we can continue to try play our game.”

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Keane: I'm Not Walking Away
Thu 16th Dec 2010 11:25
Blues boss Roy Keane says he hasn’t thought about walking away from Portman Road despite the current poor run of form which has seen his side drop to 18th in the Championship. The Town manager spent some a few days in Manchester earlier this week reflecting on the Blues’ woes.

That inspired some comments

"If he's not going to walk away, perhaps he could run?"

"or crawl"

"Can we have a break Roy..................from you!"

"Can't remember the last time I went to Portman Road thinking, we'll win this one! Now it's more like, hope we don't lose by too many"

If Keane jumped ship again who in their right mind would employ him? If he wants to be a manager for much longer then he's going to have to win some games.