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The ball bounced inside our 6 yard box so it wasn't overhit. A ball bouncing in the six yard box within a crowded penalty area is never harmless. McShane tried to let the ball bounce out of play but he shouldn't have done so as he had lost sight of Henry. I'd agree he should take part of the blame, but the ball in was something Richard Dunne could have dealt better with and Liam Lawerence looked lost as to what to do there as well.
also henry was offside from the free kick and was behind mcshane as a resultQuote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
Yeah, fair enough D69er and it's not something I have a strong opinion on - it was blatant handball that was the main problem after all. That said, it's playing with fire to allow a guy like Henry in behind you and my vague recollection is that he could have taken command and just "got rid".
The ball should never have come that far though, I think Dunne missed the flight of it under (unfair?) pressure from Squilacchi. On that basis, I'm not sure it was that overhit - it should / could have been met earlier, no?
I thought he was all at sea from the moment he came on in pace of O'Shea. His first involvement was a bad foul after he got caught in two minds whether to go in for a 50/50, he hesitated then committed and took the guy out.
This is probably a bit unfair, but so many images of goals conceded involve McShane just being on the coattails of the scorer (or provider) either chasing back or covering the line. That suggests to me that either he's very committed to covering for others' errors (as was the definitely case last weekend against Cardiff) or he's desperately trying to rectify his own bad positioning.
Good enough player, very committed and generally worthy of a squad place - there's nothing not to like about the guy and fair play to him.
(edit - sorry, didn't see IFK's post above, I thought the last post was D69ers on the previous page).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
I'd give that he could have got himself in a better position between Henry and the ball but it's a,nonsense to say any ball bouncing in the 6 yard box is dangerous, a ball that's played so quick that's it's clearly bouncing out of play unless a player plays basketball or GAA with it is as harmless as it gets. Any semi competent official does his job and no one would have given McShane's positioning or decision making a second thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxw1-Id91lQ
Watch this video.
You'll see McShane walking like a crab as the ball drops.
Any decent defender who's switched on and sharp would anticipate that Dunne mightn't get to it (he's definitely being impeded) and be ready for it dropping to him.
Bottom line is the goal should have been disallowed so a bit harsh to blame Shane for the refs/lines-mans mistake.
Debatable if he dealt with it well but fact is Henry had to cheat to keep the ball in so from that point of view
Shane dealt with it well. Maybe he could have cleared it but equally he could have put it in his own goal or knocked it
across the front of the goal.
He may well have judged it was impossible for Henry to legally keep the ball in, which the evidence seems to show is the case.
Equally he may have had no idea what was going on, but again bottom line is the goal should not have been allowed.
Bit harsh to vilify him over it when the ref, linesman and Henry are the real villains here.
Anyway best of luck to him in the premiership, he will probably, need it, I am sure his critics are foaming at
the mouth ready to pounce on any mistake!! :)
I've seen the goal hundreds of times at this stage. I've already said this positioning was poor. But what would you have wanted him to do with the ball, put it out for a corner and cede possession? The ball was clearly going out of play, the correct decision was to let it go out of play rather than give away a needless set piece which would have put us under pressure again. Henry doesn't handle the ball twice then nobody notices McShane's positioning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixer82
McShane had poor positioning, he was completely unaware of the presence of Henry which is where the fault in his play was. Henry had to foul the ball to keep it in play yes but it was such a fine line, it was a matter of millimetres and he could have controlled it legitimately. It certainly wasnt clearly 'an overhit pass'. We were all at the other end of the ground and my heart was in my mouth when the ball went in. The ball needed to be cleared and if that had resulted in a corner so be it, that happens numerous times throughout a game when there is danger to be dealt with. To say that McShane would have been crucified for giving away the corner I think is stretching it a bit (though no doubt some muppets would of course look to criticise him for anything he does).
Anyway, there are plenty of other examples of McShanes limitations, we dont need to focus on this one, where as has already been stated the real culprits were the cheat (Henry) and the imbiciles officiating.
Good luck to him in the EPL - I hope he gets his chance and makes a fist of it, there is certainly no doubting his strong mental atrributes thats for sure and the Hull boss has put faith in him, he has experience at this level - Hopefully his confidence is high.
Sadly McShane has been and probably always will be poor for Ireland. Even Kilbane/Ward were/are better...
And he's a competent Championship player at best, no matter how hard he tries. Be amazed if he's still at Hull this time next year, in the more amazing event of them staying up.
I don't disagree with the thurst of your post but I'm not having the bit in bold. It was in it's boll1x a matter of millimetres, there was absolutely no way he was even close to controlling that legitimately, he had to handle it once to keep it in play on the touchline and a second time to play it down to his foot, there's no way within the laws of physics that he could have kept that ball in legally once it bounced off the surface, to be in a position where he could have he'd have had to have been offside. I couldn't work out how he'd done it until I started getting texts abiut it at the time, once that ball went into the area and bounced where it did I was confident it was going out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Junior
It's his positional sense that's his biggest weakness, I've lost count of the times I've seen him get caught under the ball. Can't fault his heart and his self belief though, the amount of stick he gets is embarrassing tbh.
If you watch that youtube clip again fropm around 0:35 (I know you've seen it a million times but just once or twice more). Henry could have perhaps stuck out his right foot and controlled it (or played it first time) on the hop, or even perhaps raised his left thigh/knee and caught it on the upward bounce - both difficult enough to do but a man of Henrys undoubted quality could possibly have done it - The ball in to the box was certainly a danger.
You couldnt believe it at the time whilst I certainly could and it wasnt until the million texts started to come through that I knew exactly what the players were all complaining about.
But fair enough we can agree to disagree on that point, not sure why we are doing this to ourselves to be honest :o- I think we are pretty much in agreement on McShanes qualities, failings and the ridiculous amount of abuse he receives.
But he didn't do it did he? Why could not a man of Henry's quality do it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Junior
The answer is he was up against a world class defender who only let the ball bounce when Henry coudl not get it.
Thus this what happened:-
Henry waits behind McShane out of sight allowing him to let the ball bounce, had Henry got close enough to
get a foot on the ball McShane woudl have seen him and dealt with ball.
Hence Henry resorts to trickery, hiding out of sight and then using his hands.
First class defending from McShane.
No doubt we will see more of it next year.
Rule No.1 in being a defender: Don't let Thierry Henry get in behind you. He'll definitely score (In GAA or soccer)
But the fact is Henry had to cheat to score, which exonerates McShane from any blame IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixer82
The proof of the pudding is in the eating, and the pudding in this case was ball which was handled by Henry.
McShane did enough to prevent Henry legally getting the ball, I thought his position could have been better but
the fact is he did enough.
Still hate to watch it to this day though.
Never take a chance on letting it go out if a striker of that quality is behind you. it was a bad decision. He should have cleared it. Henry could have kept it in with his knee. How does McShane know what Henry's body position is when he's behind him?Quote:
Originally Posted by tricky_colour
Just clear the ball, get it out, corner throw-in, whatever. Don't let it bounce. This is Under-12s stuff.
Now as for overhit balls, see McGeady with the last free kick for Ireland in that same game
He had to make a choice, what was more likely, Henry pulling off something pretty much superhuman, or else giving away a corner. You can bet that if he'd given away a corner and France had scored, everyone's favourite moany thug from Cork would have been giving out about that as well.
Fixer, youre being ridiculously harsh on McShane. And thats coming from someone who is ridiculously harsh on McShane.
Surely Given is more culpable as he had a full view of the unfolding situation. The fact is that footballers make calls like this all the time during games - it was completely reasonable for McShane and Given to assume a wildly overhit ball was going to go out of play and that Henry was not going to pull off a manoeuvre that defied science. As it happened, he just cheated blatantly and somehow got away with it.
Hyperbole horse$hit. It wasnt wildly overhit, it landed smack in the middle of a very dangerous area, given his chance again Henry may have stuck an outstretched right boot on to it and ended up with the same end result.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
McShane didnt consider what Henry could or couldnt do because he was completely unaware he was lurking just behind him such was his poor positioning.
Just watched the video again (as much as it pains me).
Dunne is pulled over by a French player as he's jumping to head the ball. McShane has about a tenth of a second to react to this. The ball bounces in front of him, with a crowd of onrushing players, while he is facing the goal.
His options are:
-Hoof it across his own goal (suicide)
-Get a boot to it to help it over the endline (very hard to do considering the speed and trajectory of the ball. I don't think I've ever seen anyone do that from this situation)
-Hit it with his left foot upfield (Into the crowd of onrushing players, with a good chance of it ricocheting into his own net)
-Control it (He'd be stupid to try and do that in the position he was in)
-Something fancy, like a backheel towards the sideline (Again, not the time to be trying fancy stuff)
-Leave it to go (99% of the time it'll go for a goal kick)
-Hold Henry behind him while the ball goes out (Probably what he should have done, just to be on the safe side)
So maybe he could have done better, but the ball was going out, quickly, at chest height, and rising, almost impossible to control legally. I can't imagine, say, Stephen Kelly or Sledge doing much better. Maybe Carr at the height of his powers.