Printable View
There was no comparrison per se though. The original poster simply stated that if Staunton had a record of 14 games, no wins, 8 draws and 6 defeats he'd be getting slaughtered.Quote:
Originally Posted by Den Perry
Someone agreed with that and you replied 'It's not true' despite the fact that'd you'd probably be one of the people on here dishing out the stick! Honestly, you couldn't make this stuff up......
i have to agree with den here,how could you possibly compare keane to staunton,keane got sunderland to the premiership where they remain,everything staunton touched was a disaster and i think this is simply the point den is trying to make,its not a keane can do no wrong rant,its simply putting it in contextQuote:
Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er
FFS, no one has compared them!!Quote:
Originally Posted by hooper74
I'll ask a simple question. If Staunton was managing a team where he'd spent millions and hadn't managed a win in 14 games would he be getting stick on here? Yes or no please.
Yes..
At least Stan has won a match with Darlo. :)
Keane is a proven manager and by proven I mean won promotion in the tough league that is the championship. And you don't have to be a premiership manager to be proven.
He started from a very low base at Sunderland. Comparing his spending with big four clubs is nonsensical. They had each spent close to 500 million euro by the time Keane started competing against them.
And having mediocre results at Sunderland, given their resources and budget is the equivalent of a top four team finishing 2nd or 3rd in the league.
I wish people would get real. Sunderland are not going to break into the Top 4 in the premiership. To finish in the top half of the premiership would be like winning the title for Sunderland.
He brought SUFC from rock bottom to mid table of the premier league in less than two years. That was a very good achievement.
As for Ipswich, he has little money to spend it appears and stuck with some god awful players. You cannot do much without money and with poor players. Just ask Mick McCarthy about that and his time at Sunderland.
probably a better ipswich squad than last seasonQuote:
Originally Posted by Emmet7
Keane has been poor this season but been unlucky too.I think if they get one win they could go on a bit of a run. I know there is alot of lads on here that are delighted to see Keane struggling as a manager now, and alot of the same lads are big Mick McCarthy fans. But lets not forget that McCarthy got a team relegated with the lowest points total ever in the Premiership. If people are saying now that this run with Ipswich is proof that Keane is a crap manager and is always going to be a crap manager, what did that run say about McCarthy?
Personally I think that it takes most people a couple of jobs before they get enough experience to become a decent manager because there is no comparison from their playing days and it takes time to adjust.I think Steve Bruce is the perfect example of this. Even McCarthy to a certain extent.He is a much better manager now than when he was manager at Millwall or his early Ireland days because he has learned along the way.
Annoyed at myself for commenting on this thread again but sometimes its hard to shut up:)
Nobody is denying that there shouldn't be heavy training at the end of the season. But they could have gone to Japan to do light training. Mick wanted to go to Saipan to acclimatise. The best place to acclimatise to Japan is... well, Japan. The Japanese had world class facilities prepared with pitches as smooth as snooker tables and the best medical facilities ready to deal with niggling injuries after a long season. Japan was the best place to go for a bit of light training. And the Japanese countryside is a wonderful place to relax. And they are a golf-mad country as well, so everyone is catered for. But Mick had a "mate" in Saipan who told him to go there. Mick didn't bother checking the place out himself. This is highly unprofessional.
Saipan is a jungle island thousands of kilometres away in a sweltering climate with a sun so strong that it's a wonder that Steve Staunton didn't die of heat stroke. The "pitch" they did their light training on was covered in potholes and Steve Finnan was injured by it. The players had to get changed under a tarpaulin tent!!! And in between light training they could have been studying the opposition. Do you think they were doing that in Saipan? They were in their hole. It's a shame Denis Irwin wasn't there rooming with Keane, as he could have complained to Denis about it. But Mick had long pestered Irwin into early international retirement...
In fairness it was very early in the season and Sunderland's position in the table wasn't an accurate reflection of the team's ability or resources, if memory serves, they were the biggest spenders in the championship that season(could be wrong) so getting getting a team with Sunderland's resources promoted after an early season blip is hardly an amazing achievement, decent job yes but the way some people claim Keane saved them from being relegated to league 1 is ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmet7
I thought that Saipan was a recommendation from Ray Tracey which the FAI endorsed having sent a couple of people out to check it out. Not absolving Mick of any responsibility here but I think it is a little unfair to pin it on him alone.Quote:
Originally Posted by brine3
All of the other players were aware that Saipan would be a very light workload (Roy himself suggested that maybe he missed that briefing as he joined the squad late after Niall Quinn's testimonial). I distinctly remember Shay Given saying it was very hot but a good place to relax.
Going to Saipan was a weird decision and not a wise one. However, even if Ireland had gone directly to their world class training facility in Japan I still don't think Roy would have played in that world cup. There was a lot more going on than a dodgy training pitch and having the wrong type of footballs.
I didn't know he managed Sheff Utd too!Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmet7
Everyone knows we will never break the top 4. But after spending £80m in 2 season I would expect us to be sitting comfortable in mid-table and looking to be fighting to get into the Europa League spots. Not sitting second bottom. Keane didn't get SAFC to mid-table. We finished 3 points off relagation. I'm amazed at the job Steve Bruce is doing considering what he inherted.
Keane had money to burn at Sunderland and he blew it. He spend £10m at Ipswich already. He took over a decent squad, not as good as the one at Sunderland, but decent none the less. A side that finished 9th last term. He brought in players such as Leadbitter(£2.75m) Edwards(£1.35m) Dennelly(£0.5m) Martin(£2m) to name but a few. Thats mega money in the Championship. Add those 4 to a squad that has players such as R.Wright, Bruce, McAudley, Garvan, Walters, Quanago(sp) and Stead he has a side good enough to reach the play-offs at least. He took over a better situation than Chris Hughton.
Stan has the worst job in England. Now thats what you call a God awful squad with no money. If Stan keeps Darlo up he sould be made manager of the year!
As MeathDrog said, Even Darlington have won a game under Stan!
Spot on!Quote:
Originally Posted by Morbo
"Roy" win a game its getting embarassing
And you are making it hard for some of your die-hard supporters to claim that you are a good manager.
This really needs to be moved from the Ireland thread.
This thread has become a nonsense to be honest.
When Brian Clough joined Derby County as manager, they finished 17th in the old Division 2 the previous season.
Guess where they finished after his first full season in charge as manager? 18th!! One place worse.
But the season after that they won the Second Division, the season after that they finished 4th in the old first division and a couple seasons later they won the League and qualified for the European Cup where they got beaten by Juventus in the semis' thanks to a dodgy ref.
And Clough spent massively in his first few seasons at Derby. The team that won the League was completely different to the one he inherited.
But if some people on this thread had their way, Clough would have been sacked at the end of his first season in charge at Derby.
The same goes for Alex Ferguson. He was apparantly within one game of being sacked in 1990 after 3 poor years at Man Utd.
Give Keane a chance. If he keeps Ipswich up in his first year, that should be good enough. If he doesn't get Ipswich promoted within his first 3 years, then maybe he deserves the sack.
But as I have said before I have no time for people who want instant results in football.
As for Sunderland, they were an absolute joke before he took over, everyone acknowledges that, whether they had decent players or not is beside the point. He turned them from the worst team in the division to the best within 6 months. But clearly that's not good enough for some people.
And regards the 80 million he spent, again I point to the fact that some of the big 4 spend that in a transfer window and that's on top of the hundreds of millions in talent they already have. Keane was faced with a situation of buying 3 or 4 30 million Euro signings as the big clubs usually do in a transfer window, or else buying 9 or 10 10 million euro players. There is a world of difference between a 10 million Euro player and a 30 million Euro player. There is no use having a Fernando Torries or Drogba up front without other world class players to feed them the ball.
In the end at SAFC Keane's downfall was that he bought a lot of average players who still cost between 5 - 10 million Euro yet who were still not able to compete with the more established teams who had players worth 20 - 30 million Euro. It's a situation which will always plague teams like Sunderland.
I shouldn't really bite but it's pointless hankering back for a golden era of the 70's or 80's, football doesn't work like that anymore for better or worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmet7
Your excuses for RK are the nonsense here. Obviously there's a difference between the top top players and the players the likes of a Sunderland will attract. Sunderland aren't competing with the top 4 and in any case it's rare enough you'll see anyone spend £80m in a transfer window. I dont think Arsenal have ever done it for example. The point is that Sunderland were spending more then the bulk of teams in the league and yet were getting worse results then the bulk of them. They barely stayed up first season up and were heading for the drop the second season before he bottled it. That's bad management. He's also spent more then most (if not all) of the teams in the Championship this year (as he did at Sunderland in the Championship) and hasn't won a game yet. There's something wrong there and he's a way to go before he proves himself to be anything other then a chequebook manager.
How you can say keeping Ipswich up is good enough in his first season when they were 9th when he took over and have spent £10m since is staggering.
I shouldn't bite either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er
So you think Richard Wright is a great goalkeeper then? The guy is famous for letting in soft goals at Arsenal, Everton and seems to be continuing on that form.
And it's clear you didn't read what I said about Clough and Ferguson, and Ferguson hardly belongs to what you call a golden era of football. The fundamental principles of football never change, something you seem to have a problem with and your analysis is superficial and restricted to simplistic Keane bashing, or analysis that is mere comic book hero or comic book villain, good manager or bad manager. I for one get tired of such analysis.
Last week we all had to listen to people saying Rafa Benitiz has spend millions at Liverpool and apart from a supposedly flukey Champions League he was a poor manager. This week we have the same pundits and commentators saying what a great manager Benitiz is. It's the same usual Bullsh*t artists who jump on the manager bashing or manager adoration bandwagons, ie people who know Sweet F.A. about football.
When you have professional management experience under your belt, and get out of your armchair, then maybe your analysis of Keane's management might be worth listening to. Until then you should acknowledge that the Premiership is the toughest most competitive league in the world bar none, and you are competing against clubs with the most expensive squads bar none. Even 80 million spent is pittance compared to Man Utd, Chelsea, Man City, Liverpool and so on.
Yeh but if you want to go down the route of comic book heroes and comic book villains, that's fine, but I won't go down it with you. Supposedly bigger clubs than Sunderland, eg Newcastle, Middlesborough and Leeds are languishing outside the top division, yet people want to bash Keane for keeping Sunderland up.
It's a tough division, when you recognise that, then we can talk further.
And I have said before I am no fan of Keane, but to say he is a bad manager based on 12 or so games is pure rubbish. If the chairman lets him stay the season, we can all decide at the end of the season.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er
You may think it's staggering, but in fact it's quite typical of the mindset of many people who will defend Roy Keane in any situation regardless of what logic suggests.
I believe some of these people are not in fact wind up merchants but are quite sincere and have actually managed to convince themselves that they are correct.
Just out of interest Emmet, who is it that you have professionally managed? Just so I can ascertain whether your analysis of management is worth listening to/reading or not.