Its not a drogs thing as im well aware that at the moment Zayed is far short of international standard, but to draw thiis conclusion
"Zayed had his chance too - Crewe rejected him. So he's a failure too"
pesamism in my book.
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Its not a drogs thing as im well aware that at the moment Zayed is far short of international standard, but to draw thiis conclusion
"Zayed had his chance too - Crewe rejected him. So he's a failure too"
pesamism in my book.
And you don't think something that's happened in real life by people who know much more about judging players than me (and Crewe would be among he best in England for that) would be counted as realism?
You're right, and in his case, he would have deserved a call up when in Cork.Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
I can't agree with this though. You're not honestly suggesting that Behan is anywhere near the same class as Doyle are you?Quote:
the same as Behan has not been called up.
Doyle was average enough at Cork IMO until a run of form (out shone by O'Callaghan, O'Flynn, Fenn etc.). The second he scored in the Championship he was Ireland material.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Or you could do what people were actually suggesting and give them a chance as subs. No one asked that they go straight inot the first 11.
How about Gamble instead of Darren Potter
Or Mooney instead of Shane Long?
Nope. Still not good enough. Potter out, Gamble in still doesn't add up. There's a reason Gamble dropped as low as non-league football while Potter didn't.
There's a reason Roy O Donovan was sent home as well...does the reason still exist now?Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
You don't seem to think that players can develop as players while playing in the LOI
There's a reason Shane Long couldn't get his game for City ahead of Roy. Players develop. Just because it may have been true that they werent good enough years ago doesnt mean they arent good enouhg now
Obviously. But you're talking about the exception rather than the rule.
Of course. But an international team is made up of the exceptions.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
When are there no more exceptions in the league right now?
I think they simply aren't recognised as exceptions until they move.
Doyle certainly wasn't considered City's best player for the majority of his time here. And the vast majority of City fans would consider a fit John O flynn to be the better player. Yet even if we had a full season this year of a fit John O Flynn he wouldnt get near the national team.
Right now I couldnt say there are very many I would consider for the national team from the league but thats not a reason not to look. This season could see the emergence of the next Doyle, but they shouldnt have to move abroad to get their chance
Exactly, the better Irish players will only choose to stay when they see opportunity is there at International level. Hopefully Trappatoni will be selecting the top LoI players from now on and players further a field than Britain.Quote:
Originally Posted by micls
No, I'm suggesting that the reason he wasn't called up was because he wasnt signed by an English club :confused: The point being, both players went on good scoring runs for an eircom league club. One was snatched away in dubious circumstances, the other wasn't. The former was given a call up, the latter wasn't. The defining difference here being that Kevin Doyle was being touted as an international prospect from the day he put pen to paper at Reading, despite having achieved about as much before then as Denis Behan has now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Schumi
Actually, at least Denis has some medals :p
They shouldn't have to move abroad to get a chance but the fact is they do, whilst there may be players in the league who might have the potential to play at the highest (higher) levels of the game they're never gonna prove that by playing EL footballQuote:
Originally Posted by micls
I reall don't mean to cause offence but if Gamble were potentially a great player, he'd not be still at Cork
Foreign teams spend a fortune on scouting and ever since Doyle was snapped up they've been spending even more of their scouting budgets in Ireland....if there were any potentially great players in the EL they're gone now, Gamble is 26(?) now, his chances are long passedQuote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
Isn't that point equally applicable to players going on a good run of form in League 1 or League 2 in England and not being called up? The way I see it is that the Premiership and Championship are a standard above the EL and Irish coaches have viewed playing at this level as a prerequisite for an international cap (USA tour notwithstanding). There will of course always be exceptions, and the EL players selected will fall into this category, however I fail to see this as a playing in England versus playing in Ireland argument. IMO, if an Irish player moved from League 1 or 2 to championship, he would then be more likely to get a call-up.
Even the Scottish Premiership is viewed as a lesser league outside the top two, yet where are all the people clamouring for Noel Hunt's inclusion ahead of Clinton Morrisson? At the end of the day, as EL fans, we are viewing things through slightly rose-tinted glasses.
On the what level the League is at question, it's a bit disingenuous to try to lump it into one of the English divisions. The level of football is much more condensed than here - just a function of a greater number of clubs - so the top clubs would be 2 or 3 divisions ahead of the bottom clubs - similar to if you took the Scottish teams - Celtic and Rangers would be good premier sides, Stirling and Morton would be Conference.
Cork City have turned down several offers/enquiries for Gamble. He was snapped up 7 years ago and only returned because of the ITV 'crisis'. In that time he has been far more consistently the best player in the league than all the Doyles, O'Donovans and Daryl Murphys. He has been rewarded with 2 international caps and a B cap. None of his 'cappers' have played him in remotely his correct position: he was played on the right in all cases, and while well able to handle this at B level (declared one of the better performances on the day), didn't take to it in his brief stint on the right in America. Staunton then appeared to tell him to act as a second striker - i'd imagine Staunton has/had never actually seen him play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wangball
While we're telling Charlton and Reading to feck off now, if Joe remains on his current contract, he might be looking to move in June, presumably to England. If he does so, I confidently predict several more caps, perhaps even in his natural position this time. Will that mean he has become a better player? No. Will that mean that the pathetic policy of selecting internationals based on their club allegiance rather than their ability has yet again damaged the League of Ireland? Certainly.
There be the crux of the matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
If this were to happen and he was rewarded it would be because he has proven he can maintain the high level of performance at a much higher level of football.
It's one thing being the Bee's Knee's against UCD, Bray, Galway etc, quite another doing it in the Championship surely :confused:
And when in your (obviously knowledgeable) opinion will there be a time when players who ARE great players actually be playing in this league?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wangball
Or more to the point, is it (a) actually the skill/ability of the player that you look at and determine this or (b) is it the scouts shipping players across the water that you rely on to determine this?
Can you judge for yourself or do you rely solely on the geographical basis?
How is that relevant?Quote:
Originally Posted by A face
I thought his comment was dismissive of eircom League players who currently do have the ability to play at international level and i was just curious as to what degree he stood by this position, to what level do LOI players need to reach for him to deem them worthy of an international call up AND still play in this league. What is the benchmark that needs to be reached before that can happen or was his opinion just a sweeping 'that'll never be able to get one while still in this league, never ....... NEVER !!"Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Paddy McCourt, whoops, he's already played for NI.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wangball
There are NO players playing in the Eircom League who have the ability to make a contribution to the Republic of Ireland in the forseeable future.Quote:
Originally Posted by A face
If they had the ability to do this they wouldn't be playing in the Eircom League.
Surely this is an issue for the league rather than the playersQuote:
to what level do LOI players need to reach for him to deem them worthy of an international call up AND still play in this league.
Do you not realise that this is circular reasoning?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lim till i die
Secondly, if its not, what exactly are you basing that on? The graveyard?
Yep.Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
Unfortunately couldn't be ar$ed wording it better.
I'm sure anyone who wishes to try really hard will be able to glean my point from it though.
The fact that the standard of the Eircom League is for the most part gawd-awful??Quote:
what exactly are you basing that on?
The fact that even the bit that isn't is cheapened by having to play against the bit that is weak in and week out??
The fact that this good bit still isn't anywhere near good enough??
Flip your question around what would you base your opinion that their are Eircom League players who would make a big difference on??
If an Eircom League player moves to a higher level, i.e. the Championship, and suceeds then he deserves a call up because he would have proven himself in a decent league that has quite a few international players in it. Until that time a player can run rings around Bray, Derry, Sligo, Galway and the rest and still have reasonable doubts over whether they would cut it against better opposition.
There it is in a nutshell fellas
Their ability and performance regardless of who is the opposition. A good player is a good player, be it against Ballinanty or Belgrade. One would hope that our international 'scouts' have a little more football knowledge about them in order to recognise talent than simplifying things down to 'he's EL, he must be rubbish' or 'hes at a championship club - must be a 7/10' - they certainly would have been making leaps of faith if they're calling up the likes of Terry Dixon if they're going on who they've performed against.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lim till i die
The way I see it a lot of people are looking for the league to run and it's only starting to walk.
The ambition for now must be to increase the number of Eircom League players in underage squads, particularly U19 and U21. In recent years there seems to be more home based players in the U21 squad at least a couple every time. We should be looking to increase this to 5 or 6 and eventually to about 50% (distant future). This will be evidence that the league is succeeding in keeping talented players at home for longer.
Eventually this may lead a talented 21 year old playing in the league to justify a call up to the senior national side, while his Irish owners hold out for the million euro plus transfer fee required.
Do you even believe that yourself? You think a scout watching a player running rings around a 16st centre back who smokes should be recognised as much as a player of similiar ability running rings around a professional defender?Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
I mean in terms of consistency. The same good player is a good player be it against Belgrade or Ballinanty.Quote:
Originally Posted by jebus
Why did you cut out the rest of the post?
You honestly don't think the standard of the opposition should have any bearing??Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
I remember a lad playing for Hill Celtic in Division 4B in town.
Scored 55 goals in 20-something games.
Should he be called up??
For someone who gives out (misguidedly mind) about simplicity later on in the same post, that point is ridiculously simplistic
What waffle is this??Quote:
One would hope that our international 'scouts' have a little more football knowledge about them in order to recognise talent than simplifying things down to 'he's EL, he must be rubbish' or 'hes at a championship club - must be a 7/10'
One would hope British scouts have a little more football knowledge then to allow International talent to rot in the Eircom League.
Yes, but while a good player against Belgrade will be a good player against Ballinanty, the reverse may not be true. Regardless of what we may wish to be the case, moving from EL to Championship is a step up in difficulty and not every good EL player will be capable of making that step.Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
However, I do take issue with the situation whereby a player moves to the Championship and is automatically called up without having played any significant number of games.
Cause that's the part I was dealing withQuote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
and your point about a good player being a good player is wrong by the way. Ever heard Ferguson or Wenger talk about seeing some players with promise, but having to make a judgement decision based on who they have played against and how they have done? Both, and probably every other manager worth his salt has gone for one player over another based on how they have done against decent competition. Hence Clinton Morrison deserves a call up more than Jason Byrne, Curtis Davies doesn't sign for Arsenal whilst at West Brom after Wenger decides 10m is too much for a player who has only played Championship football and Gamble is left on the shelf at Cork.
That's me out of this thread, your point is non-sensical and I'm not getting drawn into another one of your bored afternoons on the internet
I don't think anyone would argue that that isn't wrongQuote:
Originally Posted by bigmac
Of course I do. I don't think I ever said it shouldn't. However, it shouldn't be the be-all and end-all, because the alternative is discarding our national league as simply not viable in terms of players. When should that attitude change? Cant we just do this right before then?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lim till i die
They aren't, and if Joe Gamble's contract isnt extended soon, they wont.Quote:
One would hope British scouts have a little more football knowledge then to allow International talent to rot in the Eircom League.
It should be a pretty large wedge I'm pretty sure anyone with the most basic knowledge of football would agree!! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
National League not viable in terms of players??Quote:
because the alternative is discarding our national league as simply not viable in terms of players
WTF??
More waffle I'm afraid Gav.
Unless of course you're talking about international players. In which case our national league isn't viable. Obviously
Thats both of us covered so :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Lim till i die
well, obviouslyQuote:
Unless of course you're talking about international players.
for the most part, and I'm guessing its subjective. keep going though, answer the rest; When would it qualify as viable? Should we completely discount ELOI players before that point? If not, how should they be judged?Quote:
In which case our national league isn't viable. Obviously
I think I sort of answered that a few posts back. It may have got lost in yer little argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
To be viable the league needs to be providing a substantial input to teams at U19 and U21 levels. Players need to continue to impress in B squads and the U23 squad needs to prove a team made up of home based players can be competitive internationally.
I'm on the no player is good enough at the moment side of the fence. I don't think this has to always be the case, but, I do think it's more likely to be a young player coming trough the ranks, before a big move abroad that deserves a chance in the senior squad, rather than an older player returning from cross channel.
I'd agree with that, I'm not contending that the ELOI is awash with international footballers. Indeed, an awful lot, even in the premier, are rubbish. However, I do think theres at least one diamond amongst the mud - you can probably guess who by now, and more importantly, I think its entirely counter productive to simply dismiss the ELOI and its players. For the future of football on this island, we cannot expect England to train and develop all of our players as they bring in more and more foreigners, so any motivation in trying to keep kids at home would be good. For the sake of some expense, is respecting our league with even 1 professional scout too much to ask?Quote:
Originally Posted by passinginterest
But WHY?Quote:
Originally Posted by bigmac
Look at Doyle - it only took Reading 6 weeks to turn a decent eL player into a top class player worthy of his 1st international cap - shows the quality of coach (and scout) they have over there:eek:
(now, can anyone tell me, was that irony or scarcasm?):rolleyes:
Years from now when at least eight of the top ten clubs in the country are operating at the level of the Championship in England*Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
At the moment the number of clubs doing this is zero.
*Not that that is a great standard, but it will have to do.
For anything other than "B" Internationals and underage level then yes IMHO.Quote:
Should we completely discount ELOI players before that point?
Frankly, if Joe Gamble (who I assume is your diamond) is serious about wanting to represent his country at the highest level then he should move to England.Quote:
If not, how should they be judged?
Irish clubs bringing through top class youth is crucial for what you want alright.Quote:
For the future of football on this island, we cannot expect England to train and develop all of our players as they bring in more and more foreigners, so any motivation in trying to keep kids at home would be good.
But that too is years down the line.
Would be nothing other than tokenism.Quote:
For the sake of some expense, is respecting our league with even 1 professional scout too much to ask?
9 page threads tend to make me avoid them like the plague, so dunno if anyone has made this point; but as I see it, there's a possibility, however slim, that Trap & Tardelli will approach the LoI question with fresh, relatively unbiased eyes in assessing its best players. I suspect past managers, some more than others, would have come from the biased, British sensibilities that lower league teams would be automatically superior to the best Irish ones. Perhaps Tardelli will view it with a fairer eye (although the answer may still be the same of course).
One things for sure; someone, some journalist, at some point, is going to ask the direct question "but what about the LoI Trap?" and then the firm answer will be got.