Weren't you just proven wrong about that claim of yours?Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
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Weren't you just proven wrong about that claim of yours?Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
Birdseye Potato Waffles, they're waffly versatile :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
Why are you wasting your time?Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
When it is other clubs who are 'promoted' on non footballing issues, like my beloved United for example, they are fair game, but when you mention that, rather than invite an existing club to replace the Limerick outfit of Danny Drew, they went and 'promoted' a new entity ahead of every other existing club, without them kicking a ball (and at least United did compete the season they were, ahem, 'promoted') you are being stupid.
I know, I know, here comes the rantings of Jebus, but just wanted to make that point . . . .
What claim? Is the eircom league of Ireland not a selective, exclusive league which picks its clubs for the most part on the basis of their merits as a 'franchise' than any particular measurement of footballing skill? Such an exclusive club, for instance, that in the past 'club members' have had the right to exclude another club by vote, or in the present, the National Association can pick and choose its competitors at will?Quote:
Originally Posted by jebus
I'm not saying that its a good thing but its a strange thing to gloss over and then complain about similar actions elsewhere.
In all fairness, given that Limerick is touted as being in the AIL I think the L37 guys are taking a fairly consistent line. Limerick 37 coming into being was more of a scheme to get Danny Drew out than anything else from what I can tell, and a fair few of the L37 lads have made it clear that they thought it wasn't right.
I hold my hands up, admit my error and apologise if that is the case, I just thought this latest pontificating was a bit rich considering the recent history of football in Limerick, that's allQuote:
Originally Posted by Mr A
I think you missed this post.Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodquayBoy
Best post on the AIL proposals so far-Quote:
Originally Posted by jebus
Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Whoosh.............Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodquayBoy
While jebus is being consistent in the face of huge potential benefits for his club, I don't think anyone has denied that. The inconsistency, with every ELOI fan in this thread that is guilty of it, lies in decrying the selection process for the AIL as "franchising" without recognising that (almost?) every club in the eircom league is currently there either because they were elected to it or because the FAI cherry picked them to be. Opposition to the AIL would be better placed against claims of it as a panacea for Irish football or as unworkable in terms of the season cross over, than because of its "exclusiveness". Indeed, I'd imagine with the clean-slate attitudes they have, the 'organisers' would look at that as a sales point rather than an issue!Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
lets face it gavin we can argue the legal and moral aspects till we are blue in the face but the opposition comes from the clubs who will be disinfranchised ,this ail was set up to cater for the interests of a few select clubs and nothing will convince me otherwise.
When Limerick 37 were 'promoted' to take the First Division there was no league below it. The League had a space to fill, so we didn't take anyones spot, L37 wanted that spot and they were put in at the lowest rung on the LoI ladder at the time as the most able of the clubs who applied. How would that compare with Limerick 37 being promoted to the top division of a series of All Ireland leagues in place of a number of more deserving teams? And that is even leaving aside that it was the FAI's intention to replace one Limerick team with another from the startQuote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
That just proves that Limerick 37 is a franchise, which I have no problem with by the way, and you are contradicting yourself. If another team from Dublin or a small team from Junior football wanted to apply, I doubt they would have been accepted instead of L37.Quote:
Originally Posted by jebus
Alright, allowing any club to exist is a franchise, but I still don't see how allowing Limerick 37 into the bottom rung of the LoI to take up a vacant spot is the same thing as promoting Limerick 37 to the top division of an AIL at the expense of quite a few clubsQuote:
Originally Posted by sullanefc
Its not the same thing, obviously. Its marginally more cringeworthy than including Dundalk or Galway (cough) in a Premier division. However, because such precedents are already set, and football on this island has already, since the 80s, been less about actual ability and more about suitability as a 'representative of an area' for the league (prime example, of course, being our own existence) ... you're arguing on emotive, subjective grounds about what is franchise football and what isn't, the arguments lack the clear definition of other arguments such as "the NI teams are rubbish and the novelty would wear off quickly" or "it introduces too many complications in terms of the football associations and european representation"Quote:
Originally Posted by jebus
That's all I wanted to hear :) I realise this AIL is probably going to happen, and that it has it's benefits, and I also realise that football competition on this island has often not been about what goes on on the pitch, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with itQuote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
Not a case of 'whoosh' at all, I understand your point on the AIL, you missed mine on the fact L37 were in the national league at all, a franchise was ceated in Limerick to replace a franchise, so as subsequent posters said, there is history on this whole franchise thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lim till i die
Anyway, I also agree with the suggestion that the proposed league, as it stands, stinks to high heaven, and it won't be much of an all Ireland league with 2 - at most - Irish Legaue clubs
Lord God, how many more times does this need to be said, allowing a club into the bottom rung of the LoI is not the same as putting a club in the top division of the AIL/LoI. If you think all football clubs in national leagues are franchises then fair enough, but the only thing comparable with putting a Limerick team in the AIL top division without having earned it in footballing terms is Galway being put in the LoI Premier League without having earned it in footballing terms, so can we leave this 'every clubs a franchise' thing behindQuote:
Originally Posted by WoodquayBoy
Why leave it behind when both of you are right?Quote:
Originally Posted by jebus
Because whether football clubs in essence are franchises is not the issue, I mean do any of you actually like football as a sport? I can't see why people who claim to be football supporters don't see the problem with thisQuote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
Thats because like me you're a stubborn **** who always thinks he's right.Quote:
Originally Posted by jebus
I've no problem with franchises in cork or limerick or wexford as we need the country covered. I've also no problems with an AIL with the cream of each league represented, as long as promotion and relegation is a part of it.
And St Pats obviously.........Quote:
I've also no problems with an AIL with the cream of each league represented, as long as promotion and relegation is a part of it.
Why is it not the same, because it involves your precious Limerick and so to think otherwise would hold you up as a hypocrite? It doesn't matter what level of rung you lot were shoveled in at, there was no open competition for the slot, no invites offered, one struggling joke of an entity in the 'sports capital of Ireland' (snort) was brought in to replace another - a club with no football pedigree was sudenly catapulted onto the national scene.Quote:
Originally Posted by jebus
Look, you think one thing, I think the other, neither of us are going to change our minds, so we'll leave it at that
Galway boy gets offended, big surprise, even when I'm holding Limerick to the same standards as Galway you lot just can't leave it go can you. If you can't see what the difference is between allowing a club in at the bottom, as opposed to fast-tracking them to the top then there's no hope for you in society in general to be honest, cause that's just plain idiocy.Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodquayBoy
But at what point will that stop? Say the AIL decide Cork City FC aren't all that they can be as a football club, would it be just for them to throw Cork City FC out of the league and replace them with Cork Rovers FC (say)? What about if they decide Bohs and Rovers would be better served as one entity to push the AIL forward in Europe and they tell both clubs to merge or be kicked out and replaced with Bohemian Rovers? What if Linfield were getting the biggest attendences in the AIL but had a bad year and were relegated, would the AIL decide that they don't want Cobh Ramblers (say) taking their place as they don't bring as much to the table as Linfield and so deny Cobh their promotion?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
Why get personal?
You say there is a difference I say there are similarities
Sorry I mistook your last post as something other than the usual drivel Galway fans shovel around here when I'm involved in a thread. I didn't realise calling me a hypocrite and insulting my club wasn't personal. I still think if you can't see the difference between Limerick 37 being granted an open spot in the bottom division of the LoI, and Limerick 37 being jumped ahead of established clubs to the top division of an AIL then you're a moron.Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodquayBoy
For the record, the FAI did invite applicants for the two open positions going into last season's First Division. Given that Mervue and the rest of the newcomers in A Championship weren't deemed suitable for a First Division licence this time around I fail to see how they could have been last year. So the FAI must have decided that since the two most suitable applicants for the First Division were the two who achieved the licence then they should be put in the First Division, make any more sense now?
Apology accepted, now lets move onQuote:
Originally Posted by jebus
What would make you think that this could happen? And what would make you think it couldn't happen in the current set up? Dublin city weren't elected into the league, they just assumed a place (new club etc). Limerick's old club got shafted out and replaced by L37. Galway promoted on the strength of a DVD? Even the bizarre splitting of the old NI one league system was a joke.Quote:
Originally Posted by jebus
You're thinking the AIL can't be better than the current system, I'm thinking it can't be any worse.
in fact it could be much worse however we proberly should hold our fire until we see the final proposal but whats on offer at the moment is pure crapQuote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
The problem is that Franchising on geographical and/or financial grounds is fundamentally incompatible with Promotion & Relegation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
Let us say Cork or Limerick are included essentially in order to "cover the country", rather than for their footballing prowess. At the end of the first season or two, they will get relegated, to be replaced by better footballing sides, even though the promoted sides may come from a region already well served.
For example, for the opening season of the AIL, franchising might restrict Belfast to two clubs - let's say Linfield and Cliftonville (presently 1st and 2nd in NI). But the following season Glentoran (presently 3rd in NI) could very well get promoted from the (old) IL. Would they be denied their place, since the AIL League organisers might not want a 3rd Belfast side to replace e.g. Galway (the only Connacht team?)
In the end, you've got to accept that football is relatively more popular and successful in some towns/areas (e.g. Derry), and relatively less popular/successful in others (e.g. Limerick, even Cork).
Or at another level, if there were, say, 5 franchise places for Dublin and Belfast combined, I guess you'd have to split this 3-2 to Dublin.
However (and without meaning to be controversial), if you take a long term view, you could argue that Belfast is/was traditionally the 'soccer capital' of Ireland, not Dublin. Therefore, any artificial, non-footballing constraints imposed by franchising could serve only to suppress the "natural order" of things, such that a 3rd, underperforming Dublin side might be preserved at the expense of a 3rd, overperforming Belfast side.
As Mr. Spock might say, "It's football Jim, but not as we know it!" ;)
In fairness the FAI have been in charge for one year, and bar the initial licensing fiasco I don't think they have made many mistakes. It was wrong of them to take out Limerick FC to get at Danny Drew, but to be honest Danny offered Limerick 37 the name of Limerick FC (for a fee of course), but the people who were then in charge of L37 thought it best to move away from the negativity surrounding LFC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
Besides that though they have negotiated this TV deal with RTE, which is a big advance for the league, and more importantly, are a completely independent organisation in charge, one who will try and best serve the league's needs. I fail to see how putting a profit driven buisness in charge of the league, it's clubs and their futures can be anything other than a step back
Who else applied to replace Limerick FC at the time that they were replaced by Limerick 37? Nobody. It's not comparable to the current prospect of Limerick being invited to join the other nine 'top' teams in the proposed AIL ahead of Cobh, Harps, Sligo, Bray, UCD and whoever else.
I am somewhat of an oddity amongst my fellows because I think that Limerick 37 are a new and seperate club but even I recognise that many of the personel both on and off the pitch and virtually all of the fan base crossed over. The whole episode was basically an underhanded stunt by the FAI to squeeze out Danny Drew. Even at the time most Limerick fans, while glad to see the back of Drew, recognised and highlighted the underhandedness of this.
Likewise my disgust at Galway's 'promotion' a couple of seasons back had nothing to do with the club involved and everything to do with the fact that I utterly opposed to promotions being decided by off the field criteria. If this makes me a bad person then so be it. This is why (and Jebus and whoever else) are quite appalled at the prospect of L37 being invited to skip up a couple of rungs on the ladder and take our place at the top table. I don't believe it is comparable to L37's origins. That club took a place that was vacant and that nobody else had shown any inclination to fill. There was also a clear link between that club and the one it was replacing (in the same manner of Fiorentina's current guise amonngst others).
Apologies if this appears to be massively off-topic. As far as the AIL setup currently proposed goes it was best summed up below with the reference to canals (and if it was to be beheaded and left in an Ireland shirt I'd have few complaints).
You mean the merger in 1993 never happened? You mean the LOI president hasn't always been based at 80 merrion sq?Quote:
Originally Posted by jebus
WOW, thats naivity on the highest scaleQuote:
are a completely independent organisation in charge, one who will try and best serve the league's needs.
So professionals running the league is bad? Platinum have been succesful in every area they've entered. They have people with solid LOI connection amongst them. Until we see exactly what they have to offer, I see no reason to doubt them. And "leaked" press stories don't countQuote:
I fail to see how putting a profit driven buisness in charge of the league, it's clubs and their futures can be anything other than a step back
ealingGreen, franchises have existed in our league for years. The current Cork, Limerick, wexford and sporting fingal team are all franchises, in real terms.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man_argumentQuote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
Nobody said professionals running the league is bad. But I'd rather professionals out to improve the league than professional money-makers.
:DQuote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
I'd prefer succesful people in the business of sport running it than the mixture of "jobs for the boys" and well meaning amateurs that are currently running it.Quote:
Nobody said professionals running the league is bad. But I'd rather professionals out to improve the league than professional money-makers.
I'm referring to the FAI taking over the entire setupQuote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
I could say the same about trusting a bunch of buisnessmen to have an interest in anything other than their pocketsQuote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
They got off to a bad start by not fully discounting that G6 nonsense, this geographical promotion is another x against their name for me, so I'll leave it til the third strike to completely denounce them. Suffice to say they need to make their plans for the structure of these leagues more clear if they are to garner support for them. With that in mind I would say that they have made a complete balls of introducing this idea to us, and so don't inspire confidence in quite a fewQuote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
Now, now SLK we've talked about this.Quote:
Originally Posted by sadloserkid
As usual, you're nowhere near as odd as you'd like to think :)
Not to mention our beloved Hellas Verona. ;) :pQuote:
There was also a clear link between that club and the one it was replacing (in the same manner of Fiorentina's current guise amonngst others).