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Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Thought that was it re the 'Ulsterma' quip alright. ;)
Can't agree with the Taylor situation being the same as the granny rule though, at least those players selected via the granny rule had some sort of blood tie to teh country, Taylor had no such tie and was simply eligible due to being a UK citizen born abroad.
Didn't realise that rule specific to the UK had been superceeded by the Qatar ruling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerMilla
Lad, power in numbers. always has been always will be.....as the whole arguement you and others posed, the human right of anybody to decide....
For once the FAI seem to have played bllinder on this one. They stayed relatively quiet throughout only releasing statements when required. Recognising that it was a sensitive issue. As opposed to the IFA, Howard Wells and their friends in the media who were shooting their mouths off at every available oppertunity.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maroon 7
Thats not an entirely new thing up there now is it ;) empty vessels and all that....
You must be referring to a different case. I meant Andrew Driver, of Hearts. I can't find the exact reference, but here is an extract from a Scottish Newspaper article:Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
"Awardee Driver misses Scots caps
Hearts winger Andrew Driver picked up the SPL young player of the month award [for September] but admitted that he has no chance of another accolade - a Scotland cap.
The 19-year-old was born in England and must look there for further honours.
"I moved here when I was 11, so I've grown up in Scotland," said Driver, who scored in victories over Hearts and St Mirren during September.
"I even scored for the schoolboy side against England. I was eligible because I was at school here."
Driver had considered challenging the ruling but has admitted defeat.
"The British countries have an agreement where you're only allowed to play for a country if you've got blood relatives, so I've no chance," he told the Sunday Mail as he picked up his Clydesdale Bank award.
Oldham-born Driver praised the Hearts youth system, from which he graduated to the first team.
"Hearts have brought through a lot of players recently," he told the club website"
Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Nah, thats not the one EG.
If you were only interested in those that want to play for you, FIFA's decision means nothing. In fact it might increase the players that want to play for you. This statement of yours is pathetic. 'I'm not interested in players who don't want to play for NI. I just don't want them playing for anyone else if they're not interested in NI.' Pretty sad IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
It's supposed to be about Mutual respect actually. You know, you've got an Irish passport - I've got a British, you vote for one party - I vote for another. You come from one tradition, I come for a different one. I don't see why respecting a players decision to play for the country he's been a citizen of since birth should be any more polarising that any of the above.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
It would have polarised and divided the North further still to force Nationalists to play for a team they did not identify with and wanted no part in.
Taylor's case is not identical to the "granny" players; however, i was merely making the point that he was eligible for NI under the Rules which existed then, exactly as the "granny" players were entirely eligible for the ROI, even though some of them had no more affinity with their "new" country than Taylor had.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er
And by now seeking that FIFA's Rules be applied correctly (as they see it), post Annex, the IFA is being entirely consistent with its previous practice of applying the Rules correctly in order to select Taylor.
However, if another Taylor came along, we would not select him (though God knows, we could do with a replacement for him, soon)
Absolute madness. If that lad came from Indo-China or Antartica he might have a Scotland cap by now.Quote:
"The British countries have an agreement where you're only allowed to play for a country if you've got blood relatives, so I've no chance," he told the Sunday Mail as he picked up his Clydesdale Bank award.
Oldham-born Driver praised the Hearts youth system, from which he graduated to the first team.
"Hearts have brought through a lot of players recently," he told the club website"
Just to remind you of some of the tosh you've posted on here (we'll leave Madeline McCann out of this BTW) is the smug assertion that the IFA had this in the bag. Then there was the claim that FIFA don't tolerate 'political influence', suggesting that the Irish government could not raise the case against FIFA without fear of the FAI being thrown out of all their competitions. Now, the bucky seems to have kicked in again, and you are suggesting that the all powerful Ma-FIFA were knobbled. Who by? The FAI? The Irish government? Uncle Gerry and Uncle Martin ringing up and saying 'we know where all you lot live'?Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
You are a class act EG, there's no doubting that. :D
Just to clarify FIFA would allow Andrew Driver to play for Scotland. However he is not eligible under a private arrangement between the 4 UK football nations which imposes private rules on who can play given that they share a common nationality.
Exactly that's why I asked about naturalisation earlier. If the lad has lived in Scotland for 8/9 years then surely he should be entitled to play for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie
edit - if above post by gspain is correct then surely the agreement between the four associations should be amended to rectify the situation.
If they dont have the agreement well then the whole point of having a four different teams witll go out of existance and they would be logically forced into having a UK team.Quote:
Originally Posted by charliesboots
Surely they could just amend the agreement to allow for people to be naturalised as per FIFA regulations for other countries (or more stringent if they wish).Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
I mean if you're born in England with English heritage but move to Scotland when you're a few months old, live there you're whole life, consider yourself Scottish and want to play for Scotland, you should be entitled to.
Not arguing with you, but by that logic why would we have 2 Irish teams picking from the same territory.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
This suggestion by FIFA, means that in effect we could have 2 Idenitical teams, in terms of eligibility.
It would be possible for example, within FIFA's rules for the RoI to field a team of U21 Dubliners, in a friendly, and then for NI to call them all up and use them in a Senior International?
Bravo, chaps, Bravo.
For the record, I would rather that, you could pick our players and we couldnt pick yours. Fair, No. But at least it would differentiate between the two teams.
As was said before on this thread we might as well rename the Teams Ireland A, and Ireland B, if this ruling goes ahead.
(Of course, you would be Ireland B, as we were originally called Ireland, and are the original association. :p Tough break, but there you go) :D
Couldn't really work though, the likes of Chris Sutton and Alan Thomspon would have become eligible for Scotland after playing for Celtic for two years, that's what the respective associations want to avoid.Quote:
Originally Posted by charliesboots
They wouldn't if they were over 21 when deciding as per the FIFA rules (I think)Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er
They can avoid it by making people choose their nationality by 18. Would also stop the Clinto Morrisons of this world...Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er
They already have this, and the age is set at 21.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
As said in a previous post, because of this rule FIFA would need to make it clear what someone born in Northern Ireland's 'default' team is.Quote:
3. If a Player has more than one nationality, or if a Player acquires a new nationality, or if the Player is eligible to play for several Association teams due to his nationality, the following exceptions apply:
(i) Up to his 21st birthday, a player may only once request changing the Association for which he is eligible to play international matches. A Player may exercise this right to change Associations only if he has not played at “A” international level for his current Association and if, at the time of his first full or partial appearance in an international match in an official competition of any other category, he already had such nationalities. Changing Associations is not permitted during the preliminary competition of a FIFA competition, continental championship or Olympic Tournaments if a player has already been fielded in a match of one of these competitions.
As I said, we'll have to rely on patriotism. Just like the old days.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absinthe
I've already quoted my most recent post (31/10) where I openly acknowledged the possibility that FIFA might decide in favour of the FAI. Find me one post where I ever claimed that the IFA had this "in the bag".Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
As for "political interference", there has been no such interference that I'm aware of, or have alleged, in the FAI's presentation of their case (nor of the internal running of the FAI, for that matter).
I have consistently argued that should FIFA make a determination - and they haven't yet, btw - any attempt by politicians to subvert, thwart or otherwise interfere with it would not be tolerated by FIFA.
Nothing which has occurred in the last 48 hours has changed that.
As for my "got at" reference, maybe I should have used the less perjorative term "lobbied". Whichever, even John Delaney gave no indication that he knew or guessed FIFA might suggest the latest compromise, when he spoke to RTE on his return from Zurich on Monday 29/10. Since he was rushing back to sack poor Stan the following day, he was in sore need of some good news to announce, yet the best he could come up with was that at least FIFA weren't going to make their determination retrospective i.e. Gibson was OK.
Therefore, someone or something in the intervening week presumably persuaded/caused/lobbied etc someone in FIFA to suggest this third way (compromise), as a means of allowing FIFA to avoid having to come off the fence.
Not really, LR. These things work both ways i.e. had Andrew Driver been born in Scotland but brought up in England, the SFA could have objected to his representing England.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie
Tbh, this is merely an agreement which serves to protect the three smaller nations, since many talented young footballers from NI/Scot/Wales go to English clubs when they are 16 (even earlier?). Assuming they don't get tied to their country of birth in the meantime, within two years they would be eligible under FIFA Rules to play for England. And considering the (usually) greater chance of qualifying which England offers, plus the enormous financial earning potential offered by England over the others, plus persuasion by Agents (even club managers), at least some might be tempted.
And in any case, it is not inevitable that the Association of the player's birthplace will object. The example of Driver is one where the lad appears "a cut above" i.e. both countries want him. However, should the lad not likely be good enough to represent England, the FA can always waive their right to tie him to them.
As for the comparison with youngster from e.g. India or China who moved to live in England, the FA doesn't give a stuff about his home Association; if he wants to play for England and he's good enough, they'll have him. John "My Jamaican Guy" Barnes, anyone?
or FIFA came up with it themselves ?? Dont forget that the Irish team could conceivably lose players to Northern Ireland under this ruling. I doubt the FAI lobbied for this particular result.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
It's entirely possible, I suppose, that the legal/technical "experts" heard the case presented by each Association, came to the preliminary conclusion that the Rules favoured the IFA (which both Associations picked up on), so prepared a Paper for the relevant Committee to authorise.Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerMilla
At which point, in order to avoid having to find in favour of one Association over another if at all possible, the Committee sent it back with an instruction to try to find a suitable compromise. At which point, somebody or other with no understanding of the reality on the ground, hazarded that if the FAI were allowed to pick players from NI, might not the IFA be satisfied by being allowed to pick players from the ROI?
At face value, this might not have appeared unreasonable, since the IFA would have had no cause originally to have stated why picking ROI-born players was not something which they would want to do, nor something that would ever benefit them more than once in a blue moon.
And, as you say, the FAI presumably didn't mention it, either.
Strange, I must say.
Anyhow, that is why I used the term "got at" - it might just as easy have been someone within FIFA, even with the best of intentions (however misguided).
"got at" smacks of suspicions of underhandedness and also sour grapes to be honest. Anyway I expect the IFA to appeal this decision. This is far from settled.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
More likely that Howard Wells is a díckhead and FIFA are being consistant in interpretation and application, that Howard still demonstrates his inability to grasp FIFA statutes, that Howard has delusions that he knows better than FIFA legal dept.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Just as it´s extremly unlikely that when using the term "got at" you had that "someone within FIFA, even with the best of intentions" in mind.
I've read the psts so far on the topic and my view is clear.
The status quo should remain untouched, in my opinion it does not need changing. We all know Northern Ireland has a vast community who feel they are Irish not British or even Northern Irish. This right is backed up by the Good Friday agreement. My Da's from Belfast. Asking him to turn out in front of the British national Anthem at Windsor (if he was gud enough!) is a no brainer, though i understand the anthem situation for Rugby isnt perfrect for Ulster Unionists!
I'm happy enough to go along with FIFA's ruling as at least it keeps the status quo the same.
In fairness Ealing Green, you are clearly a very intelligent debater! Your points are clear and backed up. I just disagree from my side. People in the North should be allowed play for ROI (for all the obvious reasons) and people in the Republic shouldnt be allowed play for you're team (though ill accept the comprimise as it will change nothing on the ground). Thats just how I feel despite your excellent arguments.
It would seem clear this happened. Dermot Ahern made a statement to the press, so i would assume the Irish Foreign office was working behind the scenes. Given that the 2 governments are rarely parted on policy towards the north i would say there was a fairly high chance the British Foreign Office was doing similar.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
As Gibson is from Derry, John Hume may well have made a phone call to Sepp Blater, and introduced himself as "Nobel peace prize winner John Hume".
The IFA were arguing an unclear FIFA regulation (which contradicts others) should take precedence over the GFA, which is generally now held as one one the worlds most successful peace deals ever.
They were offered no serious political backing by Unionist politicians on this one. It was naive in the extreme of the IFA to think there would ever be any other result. To think that FIFA would baulk at national governments lobbying them because of what happened in Greece was equally naive. In Greece the government effectively took over the FA. This was very different.
The IFA need to take a long look at the damage they have done themselves in the eyes of the nationalist community, which will be compounded if they succeed in getting DC out of the Irish Premier League. We are not stupid and simply insisting rules are applied to suit your political agenda is as obvious as some of the IFA's old techniques.
They have driven a(nother) wedge between themselves and nationalism. In future i would advise them to pick their battles a bit better
Since when did they do this? By the way the Irish Premier League sounds like an ALL-IRELAND league too ;) Or a concoction of two anyhow :)Quote:
The IFA need to take a long look at the damage they have done themselves in the eyes of the nationalist community, which will be compounded if they succeed in getting DC out of the Irish Premier League.
Once DC were promoted they decided to cut the league to twelve (allegedly) in the hope DC wouldn't finish high enough to stay in. This will be based on on and off the field criteria, in the knowledge that DC will struggle as they have only recently been promoted to the Premier League
http://www.uefa.com/footballeurope/n...id=595823.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtowalsall
No offence mate, but you would be better off concentrating on trying to poach our 'Nationalist' players, for the rest is just a pipe dream.. there will never be a United Ireland team under the Irish tricolour in Dublin.. the same way some Nationalist players feel they can't play for us, there is no way we would go down there and support that. You will never get a Northern Ireland supporter to feel like that about the Republic of Ireland. Never. Remember, we have been to hell and back already with our National team, and will gladly do so again, because at least they are ours, and represent us. Nothing to do with sectarianism, or any particular 'hate' for the Republic.. it is just that you are you and we are we :)
Of course.. if you wanted to 'unsplit' and rejoin us, we would welcome you back with open arms ;):D though to be fair, you would be just swapping one set of inadequate suits for another..
I increasingly am irritated by this decision, as someone said above (was it EG?) this sounds like a bright idea from some Swiss bureaucrat who knew nothing about Ireland. It reminds me of the story of Mickey Rourke going to NI and being stunned that there were people there that wanted to be part of Britain (he thought it was an all nationalist community with the British army in occupation).
In reality there is now no difference between the 2 Irish teams (with the possible exception of 2G players). What we'll end up with is a unionist team (NI) and a nationalist one (ROI). I'd like FIFA to explain whether this is a precedent. Would they have done this if 10% of the population of NI felt themselves Irish? Are they going to allow Germany and France to share a common player pool on the basis of 'Germans' in Alsace?
The logical thing to do was to say, there is something unusual about this situation so players born in NI can decide once and once only before the age of 18 that they wish to declare for the ROI. Once they have played for any underage NI team they are not eligible for the ROI.
OWC is absolutely insane at the moment. By far the worst I've ever seen it, including that NI speak English, sing GSTQ and have the queen's money 'Full Stop', as well as saying that previously the member supported anti-sectarianism but now he doesn't care if they fly a King Billy flag over Windsor, and none of the mods or patrons are saying one word to anyone except the ROI lads, and then for such sectarian obscenities as 'The English, Scottish and Welsh FA's won't get involved because it doesn't concern them' - which was threatened with a ban from the site!
Prior to this proposal they were in the main just staying on the right side of 'passionate' without going overboard but now they're riled all the true feelings on the issue really come out.
And they wonder why our boys don't want to play for them?? Well played FIFA.
This is about protecting the rights of Irish people in the north so they can play for their country.Quote:
Originally Posted by cavan_fan
If that means one team of nationalist and one team of unionists then it is the IFAs fault for holding the rest (80%) back who want an all ireland team.
As long as Ireland can pick from the 32 counties im happy!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtowalsall
It isn't 'allegedly' at all, it is complete ******...you obviously don't know about the whole DC situation, but needless to say, they will be in the new league.. as long as they sort out their ground, or at least start to do what they said they were gonna do over two years ago.
There are reasons we are trying to sort out the league.. mostly it is to try and hit the smaller 'a pitch with a wee wall and no support' teams, and make them aim higher.
I saw that they are banning ireland fans left right and centre for offering a differnent opinion. Sad!
Quote:
Originally Posted by shanekerins
I haven't been on OWC, but are you sure you are right about them being banned? Northern Ireland supporters are rightly incensed that we can't rely on the ability to pick players from our own very small player pool.. I'm raging myself.. especially as I thought we had crossed that invisable barrier. Now, I'm not saying for one second I thought all young Nationalists all of a sudden thought that NI was all hunky dory.. but I though that political baggage had been left behind. Obviously not.
At least they can get registered!Quote:
Originally Posted by kingdomkerry
I tried to register using the same username that I use here and the registration was never validated , I emailed the admin on the site and I got no reply , that was a few months ago now!
Just register with a different name. You cant even view the boards unless you are registered. Ive got banned twice the second time i said nothing inflamatory and the first time i just told it as it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by gustavo
Anyway looks like you cant get in to it now there are so many people on it!