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But the Irish hubs will be staffed by locally based pilots who will continue to benefit from the local wages, terms and conditions etc. That is where the pilots unions have a part play. If the routes out of Dublin/Cork/Shannon are profitable they will stay here and will be staffed by Irish recruited pilots. That's how private companies operate. Surely the pilots knew this when they took shares as part of the privatisation.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
...for fear that an airline behind such a takeover would sell, move or otherwise dispose of assets like the Heathrow landing slots. Pretty much exactly what Aer Lingus themselves are doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bald Student
So do we have to wait for Aer Lingus to move on Dublins Heathrow slots before the state decides it's time to intervene? As things stand there's little point I can see in the state having any stake in the airline at all.
Question for me? Well I didn't raise any points about the unions but I'll chuck in a speculation that it's about protecting their terms of employment. Belfast rates today Bratislava rates tomorrow?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dotsy
The original crux of the matter has been lost - what is Shannon worry ?
loss of the slots to a world hub or loss of slots to the UK ? as there could be solutions to either
As regards Aer Lingus, pensions are a ticking time bomb, companies are changing them as they appear to be unsustainable . It was not envisaged that people would live that long after retirement.
Within reason local pay and conditions seem reasonable to me, for years there has been a London weighting due to the cost of living. I personnally dont think its unreasonalbe.
3 flights a day to Shannon are not in the national interest. Thats the long and the short of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie
Great article in yesterdays Tribune parodying the same thing going on in the UK and the laughability of expecting the whole Cabinet, including the Taoiseach, to end their holidays to address it. The article also rubbished the "research" produced by IBEC and the pro-Shannon lobby about the claimed economic damage the withdrawal would cause. Eg. over 50% of respondants said the loss of the Heathrow route would negatively impact their ability to ship cargo.............when Aer Lingus stopped shipping cargo on its European flights years ago :rolleyes:
Also, Belfast International's catchment area takes in all of Donegal and some of Sligo, Leitrim, Cavan, Monaghan and Louth as well, which further complicates the Goverments position as they can't be seen to favour one area over another.
So says you ORA. It's a profitable, well subscribed route is it not?Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
Then they were comparing an apple with an orange and furthermore a big apple with a small orange and further again I think you and the Tribune know that.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
You're not going to get me sticking up for IBEC. Those fcukers want it both ways and anyways the whole time.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
One of the annecdotes I heard that convinced me it was wrong that these flights were being cut -for I can only ask you to take my word for it that I didn't instinctively think it was a big deal -was told by an American tourist.
He comes over to this neck of the woods on golf holidays so he's the type of high spend per head tourist that the "hospitality sector" (for whom I've no love incidently as I think they offer a product that's as often as shoddy as it is pricey) keep telling us is the way tourism here has to go.
I can't remember where he said he was from but it wasn't one of the Aer Lingus serviced US hubs. He flys from the US to Heathrow and transfers through to Shannon and from there makes his way to the golfclubs of Lahinch, Adare, Killarney, Waterville etc...
You make it more difficult for the likes of him to spend his money in this region and he won't come. "Sure he can fly into Dublin" I hear a throng say. The research is there -Americans who fly into Dublin by and large don't go far beyond it. Is that we want? More Dublin-centric concentration of visitors.
Anyway ...just an annecdote.
I'll give you Donegal but you are seriously reaching with the rest for anything other than cheaper package holidays to the Costas. At the northernmost tip of Monaghan you're about equidistant between Dublin and Belfast Airports. In anywhere in Louth but half a mile offshore of the Cooley Peninsula you're a 40-45 minute drive from Dublin Airport. It's a trip I make from Co. Monaghan fairly frequently.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
Sligo and Leitrim are as much In Shannons catchment as they'd ever be in Belfasts.
Your one short my friend its four (4) flights to shannon and just on a little side runner lads. 3 years ago i flew dublin madrid with aer lingus, it flew into one of the good terminals 1 or 2 not sure. Last year i was over again this time i might have well landed in north africa such was the distance of the terminal (4) from the other infastructure links. To my surprise the aircraft alongside of me was a ryanair flying to shannon :eek: The point being aer lingus have been selling off their valuable slots at international airports for some time now doing the cheap ryan air thing. If a replacment carrier on the very profitable Shannon Heathrow route can be found i say **** aerlingus. They shall pull out the atlantic routes as well in march but i will miss the rather athletic attractive air hostess living down the road from me ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
Whats that got to do with the national interest? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie
Another extremely critical report in todays Indo saying that the only reason that this story got oxygen is because we're in the middle of silly season when there's nothing else to write about.
As for your American tourist example, he can fly to one of the US destinations served out of Shannon and go that way, and save 4 or 5 hours. Anyone who travels long-haul regularly avoids Heathrow like the plague when they can.
Easy. He can fly to Cork. For every problem there is a solution. :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie
I believe I said strategic infrastructral interest, regional and national. They're asset stripping infrastructure from the midwest. I note you don't contest that it's a well subscribed profitable route ...not that I think that should be the be all and end all either.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
...that's very naive of you if you genuinely believe that ...and why the hell should I give a flying one what anyone in the Indo is saying anyway?Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
The only "silly season" relevance in all of this is Aer Lingus timing of the announcement as they wanted as many of the dail and cabinet away on holidays as possible to minimise the risk of a concerted political reaction. If it had gone just a little more smoothly for them I strongly suspect Corks Heathrow slots would be gone by now too.
...He probably can ...he just most likely won't.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
Concerted political reaction? Are FF capable of that? O'Dea changes his mind on the importance of it during an interview - he certainly doesn't see it as a big enough issue to give up his merc if the Government don't save the route...Quote:
Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie
I think it is hilarious watching O'Dea squirm! Can;t wait for Cullen to be wheeled out, since it was him who went on about the strategic value of the government stake.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
Ryanair have really thrown the cat among the pigeons now with their increased stake; correct me if I am wrong, but in round figures the shareholdings are:
Ryanair 30% (29.4% to be exact)
Govt 25%
Employees 20%
Pilots 2.5%
Denis O'Brien 2.5% (?)
Other investors 20%
Corporate governance has its rules here, and minority shareholders have rights, but the government can easily overturn the decision with the shareholding split as it is given Ryanair's public pronouncements.
(Pure speculation here, but my guess is that this was a sweetheart deal promised by Bertie at some point in the northern talks)
I severely doubt this.Quote:
Originally Posted by monutdfc
About 3 months ago it was announced Belfast and Birmingham had been shortlisted as they two possible locations for a new AL hub outside RoI.
I've no doubt Belfast International (a privately owned airport by a foreign listed firm) put together a great package and the NI Executive may have given some kind of support but to say that its Bertie's decision is preposterous.
Its in the interests of Shannon-backers to spread this but the idea that a publicly listed firm make a major policy decision based on the will of the Taoiseach is beyond belief.
What you are saying is that the key stakeholders in AL, all who are shareholders and are rewarded for profit maximisation threw this out the window at the behest of a little gift to the North as thanks for peace? :rolleyes:
Why can't people get it into their heads that Aer Lingus are moving to Belfast because they can make more profits?!
You don't have to agree with it, but I can't see why people are stupid enough to believe the crap the Shannon lobby are continuing to spew out...
In a publicly listed company profit maximisation generally is the be all and end all!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie
We're back to the uselessness of the Government's minority holding.
Completely agree with you in relation to FFs reaction and the lack of backbone in any of their ranks. But if this had been announced while the dáil was sitting it'd have seen the government hauled over the coals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
Aer Lingus timed the announcment to minimise reaction to it.
Agree with you again. This has sweet feck all to do with the Peace Process, restoring devolution or any other similar.Quote:
Originally Posted by ORA
Three in a row we agree on. Where I reckon we differ is on the whether or not they should be allowed just up stumps and go ...or particularly whether they should be allowed take the Heathrow slots with them. The prevention of such moves was Martin Cullens stated reason for the government retaining the 25%.Quote:
Originally Posted by ORA
The Tribune said that you'd need 75% of the shareholders to overturn the board's decision. (Sounds like a strange figure to me - I'm only repeating what I read).Quote:
Originally Posted by monutdfc
He'll be incandescent after reading Fintan O'Toole in today's Irish Times:Quote:
Originally Posted by monutdfc
According to O'Toole (and he puts forward a reasoned argument), O'Dea's stated position is unconstitutional!
Agree that watching O'Dea squirm is the main positive out of all of this.
How the man can take his current position is beyond me..... The duplicity of many of this FF govt is absolutely staggering. No surprise really, but they continue to plumb new depths.
All this talk of Govt "buying" Heathrow slots is ridiculous. If thats the desired aim, much quicker and more efficient to renationalise Aer Lingus (not that I'd particularly agree with that).
You forgot Willie O'Dea wasn't actually in the cabinet that made the decision to Privatise Aer Lingus and he most definitely wasn't one of them wheeled out to defend, and Tony Killen wasn't part of that Government either. It was all the fault of the last Rainbow...
:confused: Formal decision was taken in 2005 iirc and O'Dea's been in Cabinet since 2004.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
It may have been a broad policy objective going back before the last Govt but I'm fairly sure it went to Cabinet in 2005.
But you'd swear otherwise by the reaction of the two of them in particular. Whatever about no mark back benchers and councillors, those two were at the heart of Government when the decision to privatise was made, and remain at the heart of Government now when the Government could use it's stake to save all known life forms on the Western Seaboard.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
FF are bored with being the Government so they want to be the Opposition too. FG & Labour can be disbanded so can have 1 party state...Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
O'Dea would be feck all use as a Defence Minister if we ever have an actual Armageddon. :eek:
I'd rather have Bruce Willis in charge of things.
They could dust off that photo of him pointing the gun at the camera.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry The Saint
That would scare off superpowers.
If Aer Lingus board get their way there won't be any Heathrow-Cork flights soon enough either.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
Heard other politicians on the airwaves last week, saying that this could bring down the government in the autumn. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie
No chance whatsoever. If anything was shown by the last election, it shows that the public don't care about Shannon, the poor transport/infrastructure, the health crisis, e-voting fiasco, the rising inflation levels, etc, but showed that the only thing that mattered was how much they have in their pocket at the end of the week.
Despite leading one of the worst-performing governments in recent history, 78 FF TD's were elected in May, which says it all.
Is there any basis for that, or are we just throwing around idle accusations now?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie
Nice way to deflect the topic... :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie
The fact is golfers & other tourists can still get to the South West.
Has anyone reconciled Ryanair's long-stated position on pressuring Aer Lingus to sell all its Heathrow slots and using its voting block to hold and EGM to make Aer Lingus retain its Shannon-Heathrow flights?
Yeah, no one actually expects them to be at anything here but **** stirring.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
What crisis? :mad:
People in the mid-west obviously need to get their heads around what it means when a Company is floated on the Stock Exchange.
Writing a report on the upcoming EGM for some of our institutional investor clients with Aer Lingus holdings will be interesting - I wonder if house style will allow me to use the words "****-stirring" when talking about Ryanair? Maybe if it appears in the press I can quote it.
Besides - who'd want to use Heathrow anyhow - they are losing a lot of luggage down a black hole lately. They seem to find it about six weeks after you come back from holiday.
Maybe you are better off flying via Paris after all.
I've no problem conceding it's predominantly a hunch. Maybe you'd like to outline the factors keeping them in Cork that don't exist in Shannon? Aside from ease of access for Corkonians.Quote:
Originally Posted by John83
...for now Pete. I won't say I told you so when Corks turn comes ...and it's coming.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete
I think they know full well what it means now. ...and those who voiced concerns about the privitisation process at the time were called backward, protectionist, nay-sayers who needed to get with the times ...and besides the state was keeping a share in the company so that it could protect the strategic heathrow slots.:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by exiled_gufc_fan
Maybe ...so why's Paris or one of the Londons peripheral abandoned battle of britain fighter bases good enough for the mid-west but not good enough for Belfast?Quote:
Originally Posted by exiled_gufc_fan
I'd suggest a combination of higher load factors and average seat price driven by the fact the Cork area is home to more large international businesses (eg pharma sector) than Shannon/Limerick and lower costs given that Cork is a a growing hub for Aer Lingus so check-in, baggage handling and ground services all benefit from economies of scale.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie
Again, not rocket science.
Quit when you are behind. So you somehow "deserve" a link to Heathrow?!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie
As much as anyone else deserves one. I can't counter the stats you haven't presented for Cork being home to "more international businesses" but I could perhaps counter that Shannon has as large or even a larger hinterland.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
My core point is there isn't a whole lot between the two and if Aer Lingus are taking the Heathrow slots away from Shannon now then the Cork ones are surely next and probably sooner than anyone thinks. I take no schadenfreude in saying it ...Unlike some here who seem to think there's a savage beauty of sorts in watching a region get a kick in the teeth from a privatised business built on a public purse.
Shannon-Gatwick would probably be a better choice as it has a lot of the connections Heathrow has & just as good access to London City.
Look loads of options to London!
Its a disgrace Cork has no connection to Luton. :(Quote:
London (Gatwick) Ryanair Daily
London (Heathrow) Aer Lingus 4 Daily
London (Luton) Ryanair Daily
London (Stansted) Ryanair 3 Daily
Final Advice to Western Naysayers - stop looking for hand outs & do something for yourself for a change.
I heard a guy on the radio (may have been Dooley as below) decrying the FF 'spin job' report. He actually said that the FF top brass were playing a dangerous game trying to put forward a case using "statistics" - "If they came down here and talked to the people I've talked to they'd realise exactly how serious the situation is".
Because anecdotal evidence beats yer statistics and facts any day of the week.
Quote:
http://www.independent.ie/national-n...s-1064116.html
Row over FF 'spin job' in shoring up Aer Lingus
Thursday August 23 2007
Fianna Fail was accused last night of engaging in "Machiavellian spin" as the Shannon row took a new twist.
The senior Coalition party claimed the Government response to Shannon protected the Aer Lingus share price.
A briefing document circulated by Fianna Fail HQ to the party's representatives along the western seaboard says the Government response to the controversy has protected the Aer Lingus share price during a turbulent week for Irish shares.
The document, entitled 'Key Facts on Shannon/Heathrow Issue', states that in a turbulent week the ISEQ fell by 2.65pc while Aer Lingus rose by 0.83pc.
"The Government response has protected the investment value of the independent shareholders, the staff and pensioner shareholders and the Government's own shareholding."
Fianna Fail members are also been told the number of business people flying from Shannon to Heathrow to connect to other flights has decreased by 34pc.
FF's Clare TD, Timmy Dooley, dismissed the document as "disingenuous spin", while the Atlantic Connectivity Alliance accused Transport Minister Noel Dempsey's department of resorting to "Machiavellian spin in an effort to row in Fianna Fail colleagues".
On the economic impact of the Aer Lingus decision, the document states: "The focus must be to protect international connectivity".
The sense of crisis in the mid-west also deepened as it emerged an Eastern European airline may be on the brink of pulling flights from the airport
I'm very annoyed at the Irish Times for printing on their front page the opinion of Timmy Dooley (FF TD) that some of the statistics "didn't stand up to scrutiny". Which ones? Seriously, one bloody example please? But no, critical reporting isn't actually valued in this country, easier just to quote him.
Confucious says " they who wear two faces, end up bewildered". Such will be the fate of O'DeaQuote:
Originally Posted by Macy
Why does Clare/Galway have 2 state funded airports? Would it not make sense to close Galway & put all the money into Shannon :confused:
The obvious solution to Dublin is a green field site 30 miles from the City, sell the current airport land in Swords & fund new airport with train link.
:confused: ...because what you call Clare/Galway isn't one place but in fact two places.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
While Shannon Airport happens to be in Clare, it's about 12 miles from Limerick city. Galway airport is, as the name betrays, somewhere in and around Galway city. It, along with Kerry and Knock, recieves some form of subvention (a good thing IMO). Shannon does not.
...if you say so. But how do you fund an airport with a train link?Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
With 3 Airport serving maybe 300k people no wonder they can't get the economies of scale to remain viable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie
Land values in Swords would pay for the entire project.Quote:
...if you say so. But how do you fund an airport with a train link?