I fully agree - I dont want any French players on the Irish team.Quote:
Originally Posted by Condex
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I fully agree - I dont want any French players on the Irish team.Quote:
Originally Posted by Condex
All those big words then you go and spell 'nationalism' wrong...;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Student
Whooooah!!! Hold on. So you think that Onwubiko is playing for Ireland because of what, exactly? National pride. Firstly he wasn't born in the country - and let's get that little bit of insignificance out of the way, because welcome to the modern world of migration, that means Jack sh*te. And even if he was, again what exactly would his cultural connections be with Ireland. If you think Italians are attached to family, clan, tribe (call it what you like) then you haven't met most sub-saharan africans where their cousins are their brothers and their distant relations are their cousins.Quote:
Originally Posted by eirebhoy
So we have someone - not necessarily Onwubiko - who has followed the country of his parents all his life, but decides for convenience, ambition, pressure even, to play for the country of his birth. What exactly do you think of this man's principles? Enzo Scifo did it. I'd add Kevin Gallen aswell, as I know people who knew him as a youth.
Quit this sh*te about why Onwubiko picked Ireland. You don't know. It could be that he feels as Irish as Guinness. It could also be because he's thinks he's got no chance of getting into the Nigerian team. Ever thought of that one?
I want players representing Ireland who regard themselves as Irish. That's pretty much all I want. I don't want to talk just about Onwubiko as I know nothing about him but I'm pretty sure Zidane regards himself as a Frenchman while I seriously doubt Andy Townsend thought twice about his Irish granny. The same way I doubt Wayne Rooney considers himself anything but English.
A lot of 2nd and 3rd generation Irish on here get offended when one of us doesn't treat Townsend, Aldridge, etc. as Irishmen. McCarthy, Kilbane, Breen, Connolly are as Irish as any of us. They regard themselves as Irish. That's all it basically comes down to with me. Obviously they'd have to qualify too.
btw - What side of the fence are you on?
I kinda know him (and his family). For one thing he can't play for Nigeria as his family sought refuge from there, meaning he can't ever go back...Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
He himself, feels Irish. He speaks with a think Dub accent, he goes to school with all the locals, his dad bought him an ireland jersey years ago and he "supports" the national team.
Cocky little **** mind...
That's a nonsensical statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Condex
I don't know, don't care.This an Ireland forum, about the Irish team.Quote:
Whats the point in supporting a team thats not Irish
The point of a national team is to gather together a team of the best nationalsQuote:
I thought that was the point of a national team
available and beat the shíte out of different national teams gathered together from their nationals.
I wish the young lad all the best with his future and would love him to be running out for Ireland in a few years time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
That isn't the same as being born in Ireland (or the Republic). Not footballers themselves, but have you ever heard of Horatio Herbert Kitchener or Henry Wilson?Quote:
Originally Posted by eirebhoy
I've got a lot of issues about Townsend, but as someone not born in Ireland myself and only one parent from there, I think it's a bit ill befitting of me to look down on him. We all know he supported England against us in Euro '88. We all know that it was him that persuaded the Irish team wear black armbands on the day of Diana Windsor's death. Enough said!Quote:
Originally Posted by eirebhoy
I get offended by sweeping statements about half the team not being Irish.Quote:
Originally Posted by eirebhoy
What do you mean by that?Quote:
Originally Posted by eirebhoy
That seems the qualification for Irishness amongst a few Irish 'fans' I've met over the years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
Dodge, obviously you know the bloke. Without anything else, he is entitled to Irish citizenship. That's all I care about. I'm not going to judge Ireland's players on what they are or aren't. What I'm pr*ckly about is that because one player speaks with some form of Irish accent, he's more Irish than someone whose ancestors arrived with the Celts, but whose parents had to emigrate due to lack of work.
I agree 100% with you. I've said 100s of times on here I've no problem with 2g Irish or even 3g. I have a problem with some of the mercenaries (Townsend, Houghton, Holland etc) but the majority are proud to be Irish (note this has nothing to do with their pride in the Irish team, which I put down to professional pride more than anything (Townsend being a better pro than say John O'Shea...).Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
I put the accent in there for some but it wouldn't matter to me
You should read The Atlantean Irish by Bob Quinn. Turns out the Irish are African after all! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Condex
Also Lopez should read it too. The Irish are not and never were Celts. In fact it is dubious that there were any "Celts" anywhere.
Tell that to Jack CharltonQuote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Tell what to Jack Charlton, that an Irish passport holder is a citizen of Ireland.Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
That citizenship bestows nationality. That being granted an Irish passport allows the person to be a recognised as an Irish national. And if you're good enough you can play for your country. Don't you think that Charlton already knows all that?
I have no issues whatsoever with Townsend or anyone else who's played for us (...not even Butler -his being ****e notwithstanding.)Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
Frankly I'd be surprised if Townsend didn't follow England. It's not for us to judge him lesser just because his folks didn't send him to céili classes ala Kilbane -or for his considering the death of royal to be something worth a black armband. That's dual nationalism for you. It might seem conflicted or disjointed sometimes but how bad.
I've two cousins (Irish mum English dad) who play hurling and so called gaelic football for their local club and are Clare mad. They were togged out in their white shirts and were in observable, palpable distress yesterday as they watched the England rugby team taken to the cleaners.
That's just how they were raised and fair play. Whatever works for them.
You should read the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Turns out a few Jews rule the world through capitalism and communism. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
The fact is that, linguistically the Irish and Scottish languages are almost identical, and are closely related to other so - called 'Celtic' languages. If there were no Celts, so be it, but these languages developed differently from other European language families.
So the Irish came from Africa? I think you'll find that we all originally came from there. There's no denying that the Irish are made up of more than Celtic tribes. Normans, Saxons, French, Spanish, and even Blacks. Ireland had a large number of black slaves in the country over two hundred years ago, who on emancipation, mostly intermarried - common law or properly - with the host population. It might be that some of Ireland's fiercest racists might have an African ancestor closer than a Milesian.
Still, if it makes you happy, then IMO someone whose family has been in Ireland for two thousand years since they left Africa, but whose parents emigrated through lack of work, is no less an Irishman than an African that turned up ten years ago.
With three English grandparents, I'd be surprised too. I have no issue with Townsend holding an Irish passport or playing for Ireland. Like Onwubiko, I couldn't care less his reasons, if he can do the job and is qualified. However, if he found the death of FOREIGN ex-royal distressful then he should have cried off sick like half his other country did in what I clearly remember was the largest outpouring of faux grief I'd ever had the misfortune to witness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie
I think its takes a little bit more than a passport to be Irish...Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Lopez : Nice piece of Fisking....Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
Whatever you think to be Irish is your subjective opinion. To be an Irish national a passport is enough evidence of that. To be a national one has to satisfy a number of criteria. This criteria has been well satisfied in Emelka's situation. If you don't agree with that then take it to Off Topic forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Condex
The Irish football forum is not a place to discuss the value of what you consider it takes to be Irish.
gaysir:Don't lecture!!Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
The post from Condex about how the French national team has very few 'French' playing is what brought about my original statement.
When you look at the size of the French population compared to Ireland it is something that could become reality in a relatively short period of time when you consider how much things have changed over the last 10-15 years.
It's no different than having 15 kerrymen playing gaelic football in a Dublin shirt. I'm sure that wouldn't be popular with the Dubs support even if they did win an All Ireland!
Re Billybunter, yeh you can have my tickets..............it'll be a while though!
'French' what's that classification then? what difference is there betweeen a 'Frenchman' and a Frenchman? Which one is Henry or Bartez?Quote:
Originally Posted by Reddladd
Same rules apply for France as with any other country, only passport holding national citizens are eligible to play for the national teams.[/QUOTE]
It's a much more complicated issue that has been presented here.
It is legitimate to ask, how many are too many? Put another way, is Ireland still Ireland if (over a relatively short period of time, please keep that in mind) Irish people are a minority in their own country? Is a massive displacement of an existing population with several others a good or a bad thing? Perhaps it is or perhaps it isn't but we should be able to discuss this issue openly.
Now this young man may very well be as Irish in spirit as anyone but that does not mean we can't discuss the dreadful abuse of the asylum system or the very real issue of minorities in Ireland.
Again, this is a complicated issue and one that has profound ramfications that go beyond football.
The us and them mentality is what racism feeds off. There is only one race of people on our poxy planet - the human race.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fergie's Son
Irishness cannot be easily defined but I think it's pretty much agreed that feeling Irish is the most important aspect of it. A few examples;
Are Stephen McPhail and Ronan O'Gara Irish. Both born in the United States but brought up in Ireland. Yes they are.
What about Paul McGrath? Born in England to a Nigerian father but brought up in Ireland and identifying himself as being Irish. Yes he is Irish. I certainly wouldn't mind a team of Paul McGraths.
Is David Kelly Irish? Born and brought up in England to Irish parents but brought up as an Irishman living abroad. He is Irish.
Likewise Pat Dolan. As much as I don't like him he cannot be blamed for not being born or brought up in Ireland. What's certain is that he identifies himself as Irish (despite lying about his birthplace to increase his Irishness, which I feel is very disrespectful to the likes of David Kelly above). He is Irish.
Yare Jebefume, an old friend of mine who's parents fled Nigeria in the 70's and moved to Ireland. He grew up in Ireland feeling Irish. He is Irish.
People need to look beyond accents, colour, religion etc and accept that Irishness comes in many different forms. Emelka Onwubiko is Irish if he feels Irish.
The most important thing to me is that we have a team representing Ireland that want to represent Ireland as it is the country they associate themselves with. I couldn't give a sh!t if none were white, none were catholic once they felt Irish. That's how they would represent me, by being Irish too.
whether it would be popular or not is moot ...but with neither interest nor familiarity with the rules of the GAA I know you're matter of factually comparing an apple and an orange.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reddladd
I'll leave it for someone who knows their GAA stuff to blow you out of the water on this one though.
Surely fisting? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Condex
I don't think either had Irish accents, so you're wrong! ;) Actually you could add someone like Cathal Brugha and Robert Briscoe to Pearse and Dev. The latter's parents being both Lithuanian Jewish immigrants.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheepstealer
That's good enough for most Irish football fans.Quote:
Originally Posted by charliesboots
Lionel Richie you'd really want to read my post again.
Other posters here inferred that my post was akin to what a member of the BNP might say. Their words, not mine.
I am not affiliated with any political party and don't feel the need to be, though my family would be FF.
If you don't know anything about Gaa then don't worry yourself about it!
Lastly, 'Rivers of blood speech', get over yourself. Talk about over reacting!
Post re-read. Tongue in cheek noted this time (though sentence structure could've been better) ;) Fair enough Reddladd. Apologies. :oQuote:
Originally Posted by Reddladd
Tony CascarinoQuote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
BohsPartisan, it sounds like you have some views on this subject....care to share them?Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
Straying into off topic area here but, Atlantean Irish is a serious work that is very well researched, its not a crackpot theory.Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
Not denying it. Add Manx to that. It doesn't make them "Celtic" though. It is believed that Scotland and the Isle of Man (Mananan Mac Lír - Irish sea god) were colonised at one time by the Irish. The Irish were known in ancient times as Scotti.Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
No disagreement either. Was just throwing a spanner in the works of the "what it is to be Irish debate"Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
My dad is English.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lopez
Maybe the whole Irish/Celts-not Celts thing could get its own thread in current affairs.
Tony Cascarino had zero claim to Irish citizenship, yet no one is saying that its a disgrace he played for Ireland. Why? because he scored goals. If he was black though I'd bet there would have been more thorough research into his ancestry.Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
My point about Charlton was that he was more concerned about assembling a team of footballers than worrying about if they were Irish or not. If they weren't Irish, they could be made so.
To be fair I think the Cascarino thing only came out when we wrote the book and before that only Cascarino and and a few close friends new about it when he reaslied it about 60 caps into this Ireland career. It was an unfortunate thing to happen for Cascarino to be honest. Not that I am a great fan of his.
Quote:
Originally Posted by charliesboots
what about James Connoly - is he not Irish??
Are you saying the Protocols are? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
Only joking - too much accusations of racism flying around here. I haven't read the book. I remember a series during the eighties, whose one resounding memory for me was the sexual intiation of a drink made of sperm and menstrual blood. However I've read a review on Amazon, and it leaves open a few questions. 'The Gaelic language itself is non-European' is one. It's syntax is similar to other European languages, including Romance/latin, even though the Romans never got to Ireland (as conquerors rather than tourists). E.G. Tu is the same word for you, and there are two verbs for to be in Irish. Also, the word for two stretches the breath of Indo-European languages being the word for two in Punjabi, Urdu and Hindi (the most eastern, Bengali, uses du).
Another is '[a] real kick in the teeth to racists and those who claim the Irish as a "European" Indo-European or Aryan "Race".' Is this being serious, when But I personally still go with the story that an invasion of Millesians came from Spain. However, they aren't the same people in Africa now. As for the music thing, I doubt historians in 2,000 years time will consider the Japanese as Spanish because they wear Real Madrid tops (soon to be replaced by LA Galaxy).
Apologies if I appear narrow, but being any nationality is not simplistic. We all have different politics, musical tastes, everything. The point was that I believe that a strong family bond and identity will always outbid what the state determines. Even more so in Ireland and Britain which are not totalitarian societies, seeking to idoctrinate a formal identity (most of the time at least).Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
Tony Cascarino was first capped under Hand, so Jack had nothing to with his playing for Ireland. He was ineligible, but not in the way you thought. If his mother had opted for Irish citizenship (I think she was the one that was adopted) - as I can remember - he would have been OK. She refused. I know for a fact that adopted children (both from birth and by a remarried parent) are entitiled to Irish citizenship if the adopting parent is Irish.Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
Yes but these languages exerted an influence on North African languages stretching from india through Iran to the middle east and North Africa. I think the series you refer to was directed by Bob Quinn too. I think he does make some leaps of the imagination but over all it is a compelling hypothesis.Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
On the Milesians, I don't dispute they probably came from Spain, but the Milesian "invasion" or migration was probably quite small. There is evidence to suggest that the roots of the Irish language are actually pre-milesian (with the people of Newgrange and the Céide fields. (The word Doire means woodland but placenames bearing the word would have had no woodland when the Mlesians arrived, but would have had in neolithic times.)
I'd also say its a stong possibility that the Milesians themselves came from a previous migration from North Africa.
SERIOUSLY THOUGH, MODS, CAN THESE OFF TOPIC POSTS BE MOVED TO AN APPROPRIATE FORUM?
eh, adoptive children are treated in the same way as natural (probably not the right term) children. He had exactly the same claim as if he was born to his parents. He should have zero respect for using such a pathetic line to sell a book though.Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
But as was pointed out his mother was not an Irish citizen. She never availed of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
Anyway, I'm not arguing the rights and wrongs of Cascarino's caps here, just using it (and the whole Cgarlton era) as an example of double standards with regards to this Irish/Nigerian chap.
What Makes Posters on here Think that the Immigrant population would be Less inclined to consider themselves Nigerian/Romainian whatever than the Like's of Andy Townsend or Ray Houghton who though born in another country considered themselves Irish because of there ancestory.can people on here not see the Irony or is it just that Ireland is so special that everyone wants to be Irish, Jaysus I thought it was only the yanks that thought like thatQuote:
Originally Posted by lopez
My view is that you can have somebody born in Ireland but with a heritage of Nigeria play for either Ireland and Nigeria and there is no problem in that
In addition you can have somebody born in England with Irish heritage and they can play for Ireland or Nigeria and I have no problem either way with that.
Finally you can have the old fashioned way of born in Ireland and playing for Ireland. They are all valid in my view as long as the person is not doing it purely out of convenience or purely for career purposes.
At Last some senseQuote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
I've been following Ireland all my life, always had an Irish passport, never had a British passport, and never considered myself British or English. But I've just been called up for the British pie-eating team in the forthcoming World Pie-eating qualifiers. I haven't got enough talent to make the Irish pie-eating team which has been my life-long ambition. But anyway, I'm thinking of saying 'f*ck my principles, I love eating pies (favourite is Steak & Kidney, but am partial to a decent Melton Mowbray). Someone tell me if that isn't as much a move for convenience or career purpose than some of the players that have represented Ireland?Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
The wackiest claim to an Irish granny I've heard was a Serbian I met in Belgrade before the 1998 game. He was training to be an Serbian Orthodox druid, yet claimed he had an Irish granny. Obviously never heard of Ne Temere. He didn't even know where she was from either. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Block G Raptor