John Giles resignation and Stan

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

Who do you want to see play in our central midfied. I agre Kilbane and O Shea have to go. But put forward a positive idea. Give me 2 names that you would like to see in our central midfield versus Cyprus and the Czech Rep.

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I would play me and one other....I think I can do anything Kilbane can do.
so the next question is who to replace O Shea with. I think you might be an "O Shea" type player....if you know what I mean....;)
I would pick anyone but two players who dont actually play that position. its easy really. just pick two central midfielders. the ones we have the mo are not central midfielders. insert two central midfielders here. how simple can I make it for ya. and eirebhoy I said Shaktur Donsesk. that lad doesnt play for them!

True. He plays for Shaktar Donetsk, a completely different team.

Bill, I think you're going mad.

possibly...
If I am Ive been driven to it....:(
holding midfielders and the modern game:mad: ....am just waiting for the Pele wouldnt last ten seconds in the modern game comments....

Hey, at least nobody's referring to it as "the Makelele role", like he's the only cnut who's ever played that role. Some small scrap of comfort for you perhaps.

I have a vision of you getting progressively madder, like Inspector Dreyfuss in the Pink Panther movies.

I think a rest is required :)

for all our sakes!

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Originally Posted by Billsthoughts

I would play me and one other....I think I can do anything Kilbane can do.
so the next question is who to replace O Shea with. I think you might be an "O Shea" type player....if you know what I mean....;)
I would pick anyone but two players who dont actually play that position. its easy really. just pick two central midfielders. the ones we have the mo are not central midfielders. insert two central midfielders here. how simple can I make it for ya. and eirebhoy I said Shaktur Donsesk. that lad doesnt play for them!

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Who should replace O Shea and Kilbane. I do not want Kilbane or O Shea anywhere near our central midfield. Name the players you think should play.

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Originally Posted by Billsthoughts

I would play me and one other....I think I can do anything Kilbane can do.
so the next question is who to replace O Shea with. I think you might be an "O Shea" type player....if you know what I mean....;)
I would pick anyone but two players who dont actually play that position. its easy really. just pick two central midfielders. the ones we have the mo are not central midfielders. insert two central midfielders here. how simple can I make it for ya. and eirebhoy I said Shaktur Donsesk. that lad doesnt play for them!

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Also just to correct you there O Shea does play that position. Not very well but he does play there for Man Utd. He played there last night.

Shoot me now..

I've deleted the last 2 posts by NeilMcD and Billsthoughts. PM each other if you want to continue your conversation.

I noticed that post of neils was sitting there all day and you didnt delete it.
yet when I respond both are deleted.

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Originally Posted by eirebhoy

PM each other if you want to continue your conversation.

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I think a date would be more appropriate. Maybe over dinner somewhere. :)

If your going to ask Eirebouy out just PM him....

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Originally Posted by eirebhoy

Arsenal - Gilberto
Aston Villa - McCann
Blackburn - Savage
Bolton - Campo
Charlton - Faye
Chelsea - Makelele
Everton - Carsley
Fulham - Diop
Liverpool - Alonso
Man City - Reyna
Man Utd - Carrick
Middlesbrough - Boateng
Newcastle - Parker
Portsmouth - O'Neil
Reading - Sidwell
Watford - Mahon
West Ham - Mullins

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Not all Holding Midfielders by any means.

Alonso? The most talented old-fashioned playmaker I've seen in ages. I think it was kenforee who spelt this out better than anyone here recently: there's a world of difference between a holding midfielder and a deep-lying playmaker. Carrick likes to spread the ball around from deep but can he hold?

Savage? Tough tackling maybe but by no means a holder. And so on. Of about half of the above I'd cite Jon Douglas as similar in style (maybe not ability :)). He puts himself about & has a bit of bite. Totally different to holding.

I'm going to use a pretty odd example: me!

I was a goalie in LSL for years, but dropped down a league for my last 2 yrs to play CB. But in training I insisted there was no benefit to me keeping nets on an astroturf pitch with hockey goals. It was totally unrealistic so I frequently played central midfield in our practice matches.

Boy was I untalented. Those here who know me can testify. Tall & gangly, I make Peter Crouch look muscular. I was a classic "head down" player. If I looked up I tripped. But I knew how to show for a pass & give a pass. I was an OK tackler & I was pretty decent at simply shepherding my opponent into a position where he'd have to pass it away. My instincts were defensive but I got forward too.

Why did nobody say I was playing in the holding role? I was just a midfielder. It wasn't trendy nomenclauture in the 90s.

Was I effective? In a perverse way, yes. My teammates knew I couldn't do anything with the ball. I didn't have the ball striking skill to hit the ball further than 20m without it slowing down to a trickle. If I took a corner it rarely made the front post still airborne.

But because of this my closest team mates ALWAYS showed for the ball. A lot of the time I could actually find the best one to give it to aswell. Having given it I didn't just put my hands on my hips, I'd move into space & show for it again, usually hoping it'd go to someone else. The result? We kept possession, moved for each other & generally played some pretty neat football. The better ball players were fed with good possession. A watching pundit might even have admired the role I played, but maybe that's stretching it.

It was playing these midweek practice matches on astro that has largely formed my footballing philosophy. It's a simple game. You don't need to be that good to be in a good team. An effective midfield pairing usually consists of a pair whose skills complement each other's. Little & Large. Morecambe & Wise (not Larry). Ideally, one should be a talented ball user, the other a bit more cautious & preferably a good tackler. And so on. However, this by no means suggests that a holding midfielder is essential or that management & tactics are irrelevant. Of course tactics are important..

Holding role, holding role. It's just trendy nomenclauture & in my opinion it's misunderstood in most cases anyway.

Anyway, I thought angry Bill could use a bit of a lift given his pending mania, and also a lesson in making a point.

Good post Stuttgart.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Not all Holding Midfielders by any means.

Alonso? The most talented old-fashioned playmaker I've seen in ages. I think it was kenforee who spelt this out better than anyone here recently: there's a world of difference between a holding midfielder and a deep-lying playmaker. Carrick likes to spread the ball around from deep but can he hold?

Savage? Tough tackling maybe but by no means a holder. And so on. Of about half of the above I'd cite Jon Douglas as similar in style (maybe not ability :)). He puts himself about & has a bit of bite. Totally different to holding.

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Maybe our definitions are different then. :) I know that Alonso has put more passes than anyone at Liverpool and actually more tackles than anyone at Liverpool.
http://home.skysports.com/optastats....verpool&cpid=8

Alonso is actually my ideal holder. He'll sit in front of the back 4 and will always be in the best position to take a pass and usually take the right option in redistributing it. He may play much more long balls than someone like Makelele but they're all holding midfielders in my book. Pirlo is exactly the same type of player as Alonso while Gattuso would be the equivalent of Sissoko.

Savage you may have a point as I can't say I watch a lot of him or Blackburn but he again is the 2nd highest passer at Blackburn aswell as the highest tackler by far.

Actually, just looking at wiki and your definition would be correct by the book. I just put playmaker and holder all in the one definition. One or the other is required in a team these days. They say Pirlo, Alonso, Essien, Carrick and Xavi are playmakers. I just put them in with the holding midfielders. At the end of the day they all sit in front of the defence, rarely get involved in the other side of the pitch and guarantee the team a lot more possession when they're in the team.

Can I ask what you would put down as the difference between playmakers and holding midfielders? Alsonso, Xavi, Carrick, Pirlo and essien are certainly the most deap lying players in their teams. If Alonso is playing then Sissoko doesn't play the holding role, he just runs all over the pitch. Same goes for Pirlo with Gattuso.

For me a holder is the guy who sits on front of his defence, an advanced centre-back almost, who having broken up play or received the ball from defence gives and takes simple passes. His emphasis is fundamentally defensive, but as a midfielder distribution is important.

I call Alonso / Carrick / Gravesen / Kavanagh style players as playmakers as they have a range of passing, long & short. Hence the "simple" in italics above.

Makelele is probably the most obvious example of a holder in my view. I don't watch Chelsea now that Duff is gone but I thought Essien got forward far more often than Makelele, no? It's not the point though.

Today's nomenclature drives me mad. Why isn't a deep-lying playmaker still a playmaker, i.e., the guy who dictates play? Current fashion is to call the Zidane / no. 10 / in-the-hole role as playmaker, exclusively. A playmaker doesn't have to be so advanced. In my mind calling Alonso a holder is almost insulting to the man. I'd pay money to watch that guy just kicking a ball against a wall he's so elegant. The most watchable player in England in my view.

I edited my post to use the facile Morecambe & Wise example as an effective combo but it's true. A bit of bite, mobility & guile is what makes midfield tick for me. And what makes a team tick: balance. Not everyone needs to be a world beater in a good team.

The difference between Makalele and Carrick for example is Makalele is a tackler sniping around your ankles winning it back and giving it to the more creative players. Carrick tends to cut out passes with his positional sense and then can either give it short or has the ability to hit long accurate passes. Tactically they both occupy similar areas of the pitch between the back 4 and halfway but they do the job in a subtley different way.
From an Irish perspective we have a Makalele type in Carsley and possibly O'Shea (if someone could make him believe he was playing for united when wearing a green shirt!) but with the possible exception of Stephen Ireland I don't think we have anyone in the Carrick mould. Personally fully fit I'd have Carsley and Steven Reid in the middle, Carsley to sit and Reid to do the box to box work.

I think we are all agreed though that what a midfield is a combination of winning the ball back, playing the simple pass, not losing the ball, getting box to box and creating chances for forwards and wingers. This can come in the form of one player i.e Roy Keane or more likely in the form of 2 players. How these skills are held by which player is not so important as long as the midfield 2 hold these attributes.

Agreed. In our case it may even require 3 players. Now what's Stan's e-mail address?

My main description of the player I was describing is the player that stays in the best position possible to receive a pass. Alonso does this, McCann does this, Carrick does this and Carsley does this. They all sit in front of the defence, they all position themselves in a position where their teammate can easily pass it to them and they all then redistribute it. The fact that one may tackle more than the other doesn't come into my mind. That's the player I'm saying is required in any team and they all go under the same heading to me. :)

Riquelme and Nakamura are what I call playmakers. Again, Stutts is right but I have my own definitions. ;) You distinguish between the "tackler" and the "passer". I distinguish between the positions they take up on the field.

Right, how did this discussion start? :)

dont know how it started but it has left me pretty depressed as regards the dearth of talent in the irish midfield

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Anyway, I thought angry Bill could use a bit of a lift given his pending mania, and also a lesson in making a point.

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self praise is no praise....

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Originally Posted by eirebhoy

Savage you may have a point as I can't say I watch a lot of him or Blackburn but he again is the 2nd highest passer at Blackburn aswell as the highest tackler by far.

Actually, just looking at wiki and your definition would be correct by the book. I just put playmaker and holder all in the one definition. One or the other is required in a team these days. They say Pirlo, Alonso, Essien, Carrick and Xavi are playmakers. I just put them in with the holding midfielders. At the end of the day they all sit in front of the defence, rarely get involved in the other side of the pitch and guarantee the team a lot more possession when they're in the team.

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just wondering...do you actually get any enjoyment out of football apart from the stats??????

Just on Stephen Ireland, i know he's only get the odd sub appearance at the moment but what i saw of him last year i think the guy is a really good prospect. I think he has the potential to be a real top midfielder in a few years.

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Originally Posted by Billsthoughts

just wondering...do you actually get any enjoyment out of football apart from the stats??????

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Have you made one decent post since you registered on foot.ie? :) I seem to have to explain everything to you but if a player is going to be sitting in front of the defence in the best position to receive a pass then you'd expect him to have the highest passes per game in the team.

Bill you should stop replying to the poster and just reply to the posts.

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Originally Posted by Billsthoughts

self praise is no praise....

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i never said it was a good lesson

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Originally Posted by eirebhoy

Have you made one decent post since you registered on foot.ie? :) I seem to have to explain everything to you but if a player is going to be sitting in front of the defence in the best position to receive a pass then you'd expect him to have the highest passes per game in the team.

Bill you should stop replying to the poster and just reply to the posts.

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Its a relevant point to make. You seem more interested in stats than actually what you are watching. Like these statistics prove anything. Its football its not an exact science. If it was we would all be rich men. you seem to think you can scientifically prove anything to be true. I dont agree with this. thats not football its trainspotting. This is a very relevant point to make when you come on and dismiss other peoples posts out of hand. Stuttgart you seem to have just backed up everything I said only you feel the need to make smart comments at the end so as not to offend Neil and Eirebores sensibilities.

I made my points clearly.
1)There is no law to say we have to play a holding midfielder.
2)And who I would replace the current central midfield with is irrelevant to me pointing out that they are not up to the job. any other debates that people were tryin to start are their own business.arse all to do with what I was saying.

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Originally Posted by Billsthoughts

This is a very relevant point to make when you come on and dismiss other peoples posts out of hand.

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Who's points have I dismissed? Since we've been debating this you've yet to actually make a relevant point. As I said in the pm, I asked what team doesn't play a holding midfielder and you replied with the first teams that came into your head. Neil asked who you'd play in the centre of the Irish midfield and you said you'd play there.

Stuttgart is actually having a debate with us. If we make a point he'll challenge it, you just dismiss it without reason.

Bill who made the statement about Giles and Dunphy and Houghton knowing nothing about the modern game.

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Originally Posted by Billsthoughts

Stuttgart you seem to have just backed up everything I said only you feel the need to make smart comments at the end so as not to offend Neil and Eirebores sensibilities.

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Well, we had actually been agreeing on this issue all along. My recent post wasn't my first comment on this topic.

The "smart comment" was meant to lighten things up a bit, up to you how you take it I suppose. I doubt Neil or eirebhoy would ever take much offence from me anyway so appaesing either of them couldn't have been further from my mind.

Stuttgart, my apologies then. I misenterpreted what you were saying. We cant all be as articulate as you but it doesnt mean we have nothing to articulate.;)
eirebouy I didnt get into an argument with you over the holding midfielders because I wouldnt have felt comfortable in arguing who of any of these players was or wasnt a holding midfielder. But I dont think this takes away from my original point about the fact that it is not written in stone that we should play a holding midfielder or more specifically Lee Carsley. A few silly digs thrown in for good measure but sure we all have our moments. so again apologies.
Neil again I didnt name players as I didnt think it was relevant to stating that two present incumbrents werent up to the role. whether the guys you replace them with are up to the job or not time will tell. But the guys there at the moment I think have had their chance to impress and havent.
Hope all three of you have a lovely weekend:)

Good man Bill. In among the anger & digs there's sense in what you say(sometimes!), and for the record, I thought the ''debating stats'' retort was quite funny.

Let's hope the Irish players find form this w/e.

Remember this thread?

As Bill said above, self praise is no praise :)

I can just about reach my back.