Isn't that the game where Barca had 60% of the possession and missed a string of golden chances which miraculously left Benfica with a chance to grab a winner in the last minutes. Some escape.Quote:
Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo
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Isn't that the game where Barca had 60% of the possession and missed a string of golden chances which miraculously left Benfica with a chance to grab a winner in the last minutes. Some escape.Quote:
Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo
You're right, Eboue should have been sent off-- twice. Can't believe the ref let that go.Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlosIRL
Eboue should have gone, no doubt. Puyol & Marquez should have also under the current laws of the game. I can't beleive the ref missed that and I'm sure you can't either. Even if the referee takes the easy option out, you'd expect a booking at the very least. Despite what some people are suggesting, nobody will convince me that playing against Henry on a booking for over 60 minutes isn't a completly different scenario than playing against him without one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marked Man
I'm all for referee's being regimental & applying the letter of the law as you so obviously are too.......as long as they apply it for everyone of course. That's what I openly hoped for on this very thread before the game started and sadly that wasn't what we got in my opinion. Lehmann issue was spot on, everything else including the free awarded to Asrenal before the goal, shocking.
There's no sour grapes towards Barca. Beating Arsenal, Chelsea & Milan makes them worthy champions.
An interesting issue alright. Lehmann actually been superb all season both in Europe & the League. I'd him nominated as Arsenal's Player of the Year by January such where the nature of his performances. Sad way to end such a great run but he had to go. He's been very gracious in admitting that himself. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Donegalcelt
As a side point, I would also like to credit the whole defence for having the longest defensive record in European Cup history. Truely a huge feat for a defence so often critiscised.
So the problem is not sending Lehman off it is not sending 3 other players off as well. 9 v 9 and I wonder whether the referee would have been criticised then for ruining the game 'as a spectacle'. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlosIRL
By the way the laws state a player is sent off if he (among other things):
4. denies the opposing team a goal or an obvious goalscoring opportunity
by deliberately handling the ball (this does not apply to a
goalkeeper within his own penalty area)
5. denies an obvious goalscoring opportunity to an opponent moving
towards the player’s goal by an offence punishable by a free kick
or a penalty kick
Note it says opponent, and not team as in number 4. Lehman denied Eto'o an obvious goalscoring opportunity. Even if play had been allowed to run on (as it should have been) and Giuly scored, Lehman still had to walk.
The reaction of the tv commentators about the referee ruining the game is ridiculous. It is not the referee's job to make the game entertaining (using this logic players like Ronaldinho should be exempt from ever being sent off), it is his or her job to enforce the rules.
Arsenal also moaning about the offside equaliser. I think Eto'o was probably offisde when Larsson touched the ball. But from the assistant referee's view it was impossible to know if Larsson touched it. Eto'o was onside when the ball was played through and Larsson's touch only slightly changed the direction of the ball. I didn't know he had touched it until I saw the replay. So, a bit of common sense must prevail there.
There is a lot of blame put on the ref for being inconsistent - and overall he had a poor game - but the players must also take a lot of blame. The amount of diving and similar cheating was crazy (and it led to Arsenal's goal). Henry got booked because of Bommel's reaction. It was not an easy game to ref IMO.
I actually think he was right not to send Eboue off. A yellow and a strong warning were what were warranted in the context of the moment. The rule book doesn't legislate for context, yet all the good referees get acclaim for their handling of certain situations. So much of a referee's performance depends on subjective decision-making. I also agree totally that Van Bommel's(?) reaction to Henry's tackle made it very difficult for the ref.
Lehmann's comment about two very good sides playing at a far higher tempo than the games is played in Norway was fair, but more blame should be apportioned UEFA's way for the appointment. The referee was very fair in his post-match comments and I commend him for it. Arsenal's only genuine complaint about Eto's goal should be that it'd usually be given offside, wrongly, but that's the way it usually works. Puyol & Marquez should have been booked & I think that did have some effect. That IS a genuine complaint.
I thought Arsenal were great on the night, but I'd like to see Arsenal being big enough to acknowledge that their own failings (missed chances, Eboue failing to pick up Eto, goalie being beaten twice at near post, Lehmann's error of judgment) were the principal reasons for losing the final. Just like the famous defeat at Old Trafford where Graham Poll had an absolute shocker of a game allowing the Neville brothers and Van Nistelrooy to kick lumps out of Arsenal without punishment and missing Rooney's dive, Arsenal ignored the failings on their own doorstep - they lost the game because despite having overcome Poll's lenient tolerance of MUFC's tactics, their passing & ball retention went to pot completely in the 15 mins before MUFC scored, Vieira & Campbell being most culpable. If Arsenal just move on & get on with it they'll have a lot more respect from neutrals.
Looks as if I was correct and that they'll be announcing today that he'll be signing on again for a few more years for the Gooners.Quote:
Originally Posted by OwlsFan
I am a bit fed up with all the critique of the referee. Up to the present day its still an exception that a player gets booked for diving. No referee would have booked Eboue (on one yellow) EVEN if they saw clearly that he dived.
The linesman flagged. It appeared an obvious enough foul.
But still Arsenal were left with the hard work to get the goal, with a brilliantly executed free kick/header
It appeared an obvious dive to me...
Either way it doesn't really matter. Had to laugh at poor little Thierry moaning about centre halves treating him roughly. Thats their job...
a relative rarity for Arsenal, yet something Chelsea does as a matter of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
One team beat them twice. Atletico are quite a poor team. So why couldn't anyone else.....?Quote:
Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo
*attempts to change the record again*Quote:
They are a good side, but a decent manager, with a fairly good squad, can come up with a plan to smother them.
The same old stuff about Barcelona traipsed out every year...I suppose their defence is dodgy as well..? :rolleyes:
Runaway Spanish league (commonly regarded as the best league in the world)champions 2 years in a row and now convincing European Champions...and yet they are only 'a good team':rolleyes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Well said Stuttgart, I find it an annoying trait of such a side that likes to play lovely football. When they get beaten it seems that they use every other reason under the sun other than the fact that they were beaten fair and square by the better team. I think this cost them when they got beaten and Old Trafford in that they nevre got over that defeat for a long time. I think if they had of accepted it more graciously than they may have gone on a better run.
[QUOTE=KarlosIRL]But Neil, nobody including the Arsenal players are blaming the ref for the sending off. I don't how many times I have to say it, but he got it right.
QUOTE]
I think in fact you are wrong there, some people have blamed the ref for the incident, one being Sepp Blatter, others being Andy Gray. I blame him also for not letting the play go on give the goal and send Lehmann off. In my view that would have been the correct decision to give.
I believe anything Andy Gray says should be taken with a pinch of salt.
Listened to a bit of his commentary, and even knowing the outcome and what was happening at that time, he was still totally unbearable
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
I'll rephrase then - no one at Arsenal FC is blaming the referee for the sending off. Doesn't stop people making ridicuolous claims about Arsenal being sore losers. The Henry interview that some people are referencing to the goalkeeper incident and the loss is available on Sky Sports website for all to see.
The comments Henry made on the overall performance of the referee were absolutely spot on. People must have missed or refused to hear Henry say 'that the referee got the sending off right' and that he didn't think he 'cost us the game'. It was his performance overall that was questioned and not the twisted thoughts the likes of Harry Harris would have people believe. The misquoting of what Henry actually said is unbelievable.
Of seven issues for mandatory yellow cards in the laws of the game he missed at least 5 of them on a regualr basis. As just one example people have tried to brush off the likes of the Edmilison issue which is there in black and white as a cautionable offence that was never followed. Apply the laws fairly for everyone and there can be no complaints
You can't demand one action and then hide away from all the others as most people seem to be doing
By beliving he still got the call wrong on the Lehmann incident you only further the case of why such ineptness was allowed in a major final. The fact the man himself has changed his view on the incident and what he would have done again speaks volumes on his own performance.
Not being funnt but if you were to analyse every game and give yellow cards for every bookable incident, I'd be fairly sure you'd be left with 7 v 7 and those 14 booked. Wednesday game was no different. I think Reitoir's review of the performance earlier in this thread is excellent and fairly informative
The ref had a stinker in my view and he was not up to handling the game. However I think if you lose a game you are better off not even mentioning the ref or his performance.
Henry should have given an interview saying that Arsenal were fantastic he was proud of his players for playing so well with ten men and that Barca are a great club and congratulations to them End of story.
Instead he wanted to ramble on for about 5 minutes about the ref and then the performance of two of the players for Barca Ronaldinhio and Eto and having a go at their personality was bang out of order in my view and I expected more from him. He should realise that ETO scored a goal and was involved in the major incident of the game which was set up by Ronaldinhio.
Also Arsenal FC have given out about the First goal and said it was offside. This despite the fact you saw on Sky on Wed night it was onside and doubt should always favour the attacking. Paul Merson and Guillit and Redknapp all said it was onside.
The point is Arsenal should not even be chatting about the referee in my view as it just comes across as sour grapes.
You are right of course but the laws are the laws. Many of them I don't agree with. The referee gets paid to use them as directed and even more so when such a prize is at stake. Sadly he didn't. Both teams I felt had huge grounds for complaint on that score.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
In one of Collina's last games in Italy, he was fooled by some three obvious fresh air contacts, followed by blatant leaps in the air and the icing on the cake roll overs. But if it's Collina who misses them then its the player's deception comes into question.
I don't think any referee deserves to get away with that type of performance. People are quick to attack players when they don't perform and Henry has every right to have a go at him. I would be disgusted for any player to not show the type of passion that Henry does especially when it's very much justified. :) :)Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
I didn't see anything on Sky. You do fail to mention that Wenger questioned the offside amongst a 5 minute chat where the focus was praising Barcelona & his own players very highly as you had wished. It's a tiny aspect of what was a very sporting interview.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
For my money and some others, Eto'o is offside when Larrson touches the ball. It happened so quickly so I don't blame the linesman. I don't watch Sky here in Canada but I've watched the incident on video numerouss times and I'm still of the opinion he's offside but only at Larssons touch. Sometimes you get those, sometimes you don't but you've every right to feel agreived by it.
Of course during the game the advantage should be given to the attackers but if he's offside, he is offside and if it was Ireland we would all feel hard done by that.
No, its been proved Eto'o was onside. Marginally but he was.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
Well I haven't seen anything to prove it onside and I assume 3 minutes after the game neither had Wenger even after watching the footage he was presented.
He's adamant that the tv footage he was shown in Paris showed it differently and I have to say what I have seen concurs with that view albeit very marginal and easily missed in my opinion :)
Till I see whatever proves it otherwise, I stick by what I've watched on video numerous times although of course I could be wrong. :)
You are :D
Don't blame Wenger for questioning after the game BTW
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlosIRL
If someone says that the Ref should have been wearing a Barcelona shirt after he makes one decision that cost Barcelona a goal and made another that gifted Arsenal a goal, how can anyone think anything else other than that he's a sore loser?
If the ref was inept (which I don't think he was), he was inept for both teams.
And the fact that he's now second guessing a decision which even you say he got right doesn't show anything about his performance; it shows only that he's feeling the pressure now with everyone claiming he should have ignored the rules and let the keeper stay on.
You obviously haven't listened to the interview. He accused the referee of wearring a barca shirt in relation to the treatment he recieved. You like so many others have totally taken his comments out of context. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Marked Man
He said himself that the ref was right on the sending off and didn't cost Arsenal the game but complained soley on the standard of the refereeing with regard to himself. He was spot on and I'm still waiting for someone to prove that differently. :rolleyes:
Watch the interview again as you do Henry a terrible but not surprising in-justice.
Do you honestly believe that Campbell and Toure weren't going in just as hard on Eto and Ronaldinho. I can think of one foul on Henry (mis-timed tackle by Marquez) but he certainly wasn't kicked up and down the park. He was just marked tightly by quality defenders.Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlosIRL
have you seen the itv interview - the context of that one was most definately sour grapes and accusing the ref of costing arsenal the match. in this case he is definately in te wrong, understandable considering it was minutes after losing such a big match, but he should have the grace at his press conference today to take back his comments.Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlosIRL
I think a straight red for a tackle from behind was rescinded straight after the 1998 World Cup, when there were red cards everywhere. I don't recall any Barca challenge worthy of a straight red.Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlosIRL
So now we know that the ref. made a brilliant on the spot decision that the first "Larsson goal" was onside. One of the most crucial/brave/ expert refereeing decisions since..... Frick gave us that last minute penalty.
IMO there is some method to Wenger's moaning about the refereeing standard. Moan enough with false allegations like Mourinho did against Frick last year and Uefa will give the referee you want next time as Chelsea got then with Merk being appointed in the return game.
Am I giving Arsene more credit than he deserves?
Worked for Chelsea this year in the Cl didn't it? Don't think they complained about refs this year at all
I really do feel reluctant to bring into question Arsenal's renowned sense of fair play, their pedigree in this area has set high standards but was there any particular good reason why the ball was not returned to Barca after it was put out of play when Henry was injured?
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlosIRL
My view is you are better off as a manager or a player congratulating the other team and complimenting your own team and then getting on with it. Bringingup the issues in relation to the ref comes across as sour grapes. You can analyse what he said many times but he did say the Ref should be wearing a Barca shirt. If that is not an inflamotory remark about a ref I dont know what is. He also made inflamatory remarks about ETO and Roanaldinhio also saying they were not proper players or proper people.
Granted that Wenger and Henry congratulated Barca and complimented them also but this is the least I would expect from any club or person.
If ireland went out to the ETO goal I would not feel one bit annoyed by the ref or linesman as the goal was onside. When you get Paul Merson saying it was onside and Liam Brady then you know its onside. Merson was like Phil Thompson in a lot of his comments the other nigth but he was fair on that one.
In my view players coming out and having a go at a ref after a game no matter who they are if they are Robbie Keane, Steve Staunton Henry , Shearer I dont care it does not sound good especially after you have just been beaten in a final.
The same referee who distorted the outcome of Euro 2004 by refusing to book 3 or 4 Greek players against Czech Rep in the SF because he knew they were carrying yellow cards. He wasn't there to be a humanitarian!Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Robbie Keane could have had a hat-trick in Basle in Oct '04 except for a series of marginal but definitely wrong offside calls . eirebhoy even posted the stills on this site as evidence. But it was hard to complain too much as 99 times out of a hundred those offsides are given. Deep down Arsenal can feel unlucky that the linesman made such a good & courageous call but they can't feel aggrieved.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
Anyway, I'm hoping Arsenal can do a Bayern Munich.
Wednesday's game just goes to show how precarious the divide between success & failure is as a goalie. Or rather how absolute success & failure is in that position: Lehman's save from Riquelme vs his foul on Eto. Reyna's performance in 90 minutes against West Ham vs being the hero of the day 40 mins later...
Henry, as quoted in several sources:Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlosIRL
'I don't know if the referee was wearing a Barcelona shirt because they kicked me all over the place. If the referee did not want us to win he should have said so from the off.
'Some of the calls were strange. I believe the referee did not do his job. I would have liked to have seen a proper referee.'
He added: 'Maybe next time I'll learn how to dive. I expect the referee to do his job but I don't think he did.'
No sour grapes there, right? A terrible injustice I've done him indeed (to use your overblown terminology).
I wanted to post this up just to say that I've reached a point of no return on this and am really growing bored of defending the many half truths, twisted quotes and gutter press 'facts' thrown out at almost everything I post in relation to Arsenal.
I do wonder why I even bother posting when I know what the responce will be and who will say it. I used to think I contributed something here when it comes to Arsenal but I really question that now. Really just getting tired of it all to be honest. It's a pity because I honestly feel that there are some really good knowledgeable football people here who get lost in the rubbish. I've just had enough of all the double standards & well hidden personal insults to be honest. I'm tired of constantly having to repeat myself. I've just wasted too much energy here in fairness and am not going to leave myself open for a keegan-esque outburst in the future.
So I'm done when it comes to Arsenal on foot.ie . I like to compare it to Highbury closing it's doors. No doubt there is an Emirates out there, shiny & new, to pick up the Arsenal baton on foot.ie :ball:
Cheers :)
Just when I was thinking to become an Arsenal supporter next season because Emirates is by far my favorite airline.
Karlos, you don't have to feel that you have to defend the context of Arsenal's every action and word, just let some of the stuff go, besides being hard work
I wake up this morning to hear an interview with the Gunner golfer Ian Poulter, all the time was spent on a long rant about that CL referee.
Reacting tactically and emotionally to bad decisions made in the game are also part of the game.
This afternoon Munster were subject to an absolute howler of a decision in the Rugby cup final. After the game it was not mentioned. I wonder why :)
No, go on to win it having been beaten in a previous final!Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzo
Were you there?