Googlemaps tells me that Buncrana is 1km closer to Derry than Letterkenny is to Ballybofey. So if proximity to an existing club was to be an issue, it would affect them all.Quote:
Originally Posted by brendy_éire
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Googlemaps tells me that Buncrana is 1km closer to Derry than Letterkenny is to Ballybofey. So if proximity to an existing club was to be an issue, it would affect them all.Quote:
Originally Posted by brendy_éire
It's also not credible to call the old Irish league B Division a 'senior' league in any real sense btw. It was pure non-league, and also not part of a pyramid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinkicker
What's the gist?Quote:
Originally Posted by nr637
In fairness, a number of people on here have tried to tell you this on a number of occasions in response to your various lectures about the LOI not having a pyramid. It's much easier to talk about on forum than it is to deliver in reality.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
I never mentioned senior nor the pyramid system , I purely commented on their demise, how quickly it happened and their current situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
I never said you did. It was addressed to EalingGreen, who made the orignal post/reference to them. That's what your post was responding to (with my post an addiiton to it).Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinkicker
Well, you should have responded directly to the EG post directly and your post made absolutely no addition to mine. Your use of the "not credible" would imply I use false information or I'm not to be trusted. Both of which are untrue. Please be more selective of you use of words.Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
"The 2008–09 season was spent in the IFA Interim Intermediate League, but [Chimney Corner FC] gained admission to the Championship in 2009, when it was split into two divisions (Corner entering Championship 2). The club remained at this level until 2014, when they resigned to join the Ballymena & Provincial League."Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
And if you look at the recent history of the Championship, you will see that is exactly what it was/is, a part of the pyramid, incl CCFC for their final few years at that level:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NIFL_Championship
The wider point being (a ) that the town of Antrim has had Senior representation, if only short-lived, (b ) if CCFC or any other local club can get their act together to reach Senior status there is as process for them to do so, and (c ) the operation of a proper pyramid requires contant re-evaluation and reorganisation if it is to continue to offer the intended benefits.
Dundee FC and Dundee United FC:Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
https://scontent.fbhx1-2.fna.fbcdn.n...Fw&oe=67A5D510
Proximity needn't matter a damn providing the clubs in question are/were properly organised and sustainable within their own resources and support.
Honestly buddy, you need to get over yourself here :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinkicker
I meant to add that as well as everything else, Newtownabbey has never had, and Antrim town currently doesn't have, a Senior club in the NIFL because no-one has ever considered parachuting a new or existing club from either into the pyramid.Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
So you're basically answering your own question here. The places you mentioned haven't had an LOI club because either no-one has tried to get one admitted into the league, or they tried and weren't successful. It realy is as simple as that.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
It really feels like everything you say on this issue has an air of smug hectoring and superiority over the whole pyramid issue. The LOI is where it is, and those who understand football in the country understand why that is. It seems that even yourself is now finally grasping the complications involved in changing the entire structure. Yet change is still slowly but surely happening. So please spare us the constant jibes and snipes about it all in the meantime. It will just take our league longer to be as amazeballs as everything up in the north clearly/allegedly is :cool:
Football in NI and ROI share history, tradition and similar cultures etc, which is why I enjoy reading and contributing to some, though by no mean all, sections of this forum. (That and a nerdy interest in these things generally).Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
As such, I have never denied or downplayed those several advantages which the LOI has over the NIFL - eg drive towards professionalism, advances in Europe, rising attendances etc - and would hope the latter could learn lessons from them.
But such an exchange is not all one-way: most notably when it comes to the establishment and operation of a pyramid, something which the IFA have managed quite well in NI, in stark contrast to the FAI's efforts as discussed in this thread.
On which point, I have no doubt that my contributions must bore the majority of posters but some, at least, seem keen to engage - see eg 'Elfman' #93 or 'pineapple stu' #106. But whereas they do so in an interested and reasonable way, you seem to take any criticism personally i.e. my "jibes and snipes etc" are in reality your over-sensitivity and unwillingness to accept you may sometimes get things wrong - eg Bangor being part of Belfast, Australia/Brazil having rural populations, Antrim never having had a Senior club (just 3 examples of many off the top of my head).
So may I ask that you stop "playing the man" and instead "play the ball"?
I look forward to the next in your series of posts which essentially translate as "Hey everyone - the LOI should have a pyramid. It's really shiit that it doesn't, and ater all - how hard can it be to set one up anyway? So I'll just keep on telling you that at every opportunity". Because as sure as night follows day, those posts will just keep on comingQuote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
The LOI can survive without a pyramid, that's obvious.Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
But it must be equally obvious that it would be better for everyone if it had a pyramid, otherwise why would 53(?) of the other 54 Associations in Europe bother to have one?
I have never said it's easy. But it's precisely because it is hard that the FAI looks to me to be ducking the issues and going for something which creates an illusion of progress in this areaQuote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
So that the "solution" which the FAI are choosing is no more likely to work than the 'A' League.
Or as a wise person once said: "If you set off from the wrong place, don't be surprised when you end up at the wrong destination."
And so it continues......:embarrassed:Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Yep - I play the ball while you keep playing the man.Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
Anyhow:
Quote:
Originally Posted by EatYerGreens
The A league was good as a concept but failed on several levels.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
However fixing the Provincial leagues at the same time as creating a 3rd tier can lead to a proper pyramid.
Right now the jump for Junior and Intermediate clubs to Senior football is too big. As mentioned yourself in relation to Cockhill. The demands on the field and off them in terms of infrastructure is too high.
However on the other side, clubs in the A league couldn't be relegated, so a poorly performing club couldn't find their level.
There was too many reserve teams last time, and we didn't have the potential of clubs who've been entering League of Ireland underage leagues for several years entering a senior side.
I know you personally don't like the idea of Mayo FC, Carlow-Kilkenny, Kildare etc joining, as you don't see them as natural clubs.
But these are areas with an interest in football, and like most rural areas in the Republic, gravitate to thinking along county lines.
They all have more of a chance of doing well than Castlebar Celtic, Evergreen FC or Newbridge United.
Series of articles looking at the current football system across the country.
We have anything but a football pyramid at present..
Leinster - https://extratime.com/articles/35365...-4---leinster/
Connacht - https://extratime.com/articles/35139...-3---connacht/
Ulster - https://extratime.com/articles/35088...rt-2---ulster/
Munster - https://extratime.com/articles/35033...t-1---munster/
Thanks for this cobhlad, good to have them all in one place.
I enjoyed reading them, hoped for more detail but just the fact that info about the provincial leagues is becoming more widespread is a positive.
Side note - does anyone know the facility requirements for teams in the MSL or LSL? I assume the new National League will have the same requirements.
for intemediate level, the LSL officially requires a privately owned, fenced off pitch, but it's not enforced. A number of sides play in astros owned by the local authority (including in the top division last season) , and in other cases the fencing is just a series of poles stuck in the ground with some rope running in between, which gets taken down at full timeQuote:
Originally Posted by Elfman
separately, I heard that one of the more storied and successful amateur clubs, TEK United, have folded their intermediate team.
Thanks Burnsie, good to get clarification on that. And sorry to hear about TEK - always a sad day when a club has to fold a team.
What's your own thoughts on the National League - a step forward or another false dawn?
I've always been a fan of the idea in principle.
But I've seen first-hand over the many years the sheer parochialism and self-interest of the blazers who will ultimately have to promote (or at least acquiesce to) the plan.
And unless the FAI can produce a pot of gold to incentivise the clubs to join, I would imagine the third tier will be an odd backwater of B-teams and university sides with a handful of provincial clubs propping up the table
Anyone burned by the A Championship will be very sceptical of the proposed Third Tier. What's more - Mayo, CK and Kildare have put in the hard yards at academy level. Seems a weak foundation to bring in clubs who haven't put in those hard yards.
The Sligo Leitrim and District League is the only league within the province that operates across multiple counties, although unsurprisingly Sligo constitutes the majority of its clubs. Finally Roscommon operates its own league.Quote:
Originally Posted by cobhlad
Just on this there are numerous teams from Galway playing in the Roscommon League. Ballinasloe Town, Shiven Rovers, Moylough, Dunmore and Ballymoe in the top 2 divisions are all from County Galway.
I think the biggest barrier to a Connacht Senior League is cost. To me, it would make sense for the likes of Mervue, Salthill and Athenry in Galway to want to play against Castlebar Celtic, Westport, Boyle Celtic and the best sides in Sligo to play at a higher level. I really don't think the attraction of playing Corrib Rangers or Galway Hibs would be too much to give up but obviously travel costs, in particular, would increase.
It's the biggest challenge for sure. My silver bullet suggestion for both was to make the national league strictly amateur with the attraction being the title of best amateur club.Quote:
Originally Posted by Burnsie
I'm pretty sure that would work for Junior clubs like Mervue and Cockhill but is it naïve to think that intermediate clubs would go for that carrot?
Of course and rightly so. However, although I'm a big fan of the national academy leagues, I would think the next step for them is to start encouraging existing clubs who want to play nationally to set them up.Quote:
Originally Posted by legendz
Hopefully, an amateur 3rd tier would be the place to do that. Well, that or fill in the missing age gaps at U19, U18, U16 & U14!
Good spot JC. I'm told there's no maternity ward in Roscommon so the argument could also be made that all the teams in that league are full of Galway lads! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by JC_GUFC
Just on the point about costs, I wonder how much is to do with prestige - ie. the big fish don't want to give up their small pond. No hotel needed if you're up and back same day, and am I right in saying 2hrs would be the furthest distance?
Frankly it'd be madness for the 3rd tier to be anything but amateur with small expenses at most. There's no way sufficient income would be there for clubs to be part-time or anything approaching what First Division clubs are now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elfman
Agreed but my understanding from earlier in the thread is that the Leinster Senior League already has part-time teams, which checks out with what I've heard.
I'd be of the view that this level should be focused on paying their coaches, maintaining youth teams across every age group and building infrastructure instead of paying players. I don't blame the players for taking a paying gig but would an LSL team show interest in a 3rd tier if they had to stop this practice?
There are lads getting paid in probably every junior league at sometime or another too. Maybe not that much, and not systematically, but it definitely happens at levels you might be surprised.Quote:
Originally Posted by BigEars
I know one club in Louth were using registration fees of the schoolboy section to pay a couple of players NECL.
I am aware of a few clubs split the underage sections from the men's team organisationally , as the men's team can be an absolute black-hole for money.
Two problems I'd invisage with that. Firstly the reality is that some clubs will always want to pay at least some of their players, whether they're labelled or told to be amateur or not. Either because they're ambitioius to climb the levels, or just because they want to be top dogs in their patch. So there'll always be a local business man willing to provide a few Euro that can be slipped into players' boots to help attract better ones. Secondly - what happens when a team goes up from the amateur level and another team comes down into it? If the team going up can only be amateur when promoted then they'll struggle when moved into a semi-pro league. Likewise the club coming down will face a lot of upheaval if it has to get rid of any paid players etc. It's feasible that the same teams could yo-yo up and down between the 2nd and 3rd tier fairly regulalry, and switching constantly between amateur and non-amateur would be a bit of a comercial and administrative rollercoaster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elfman
Thanks for giving your view EYG. The first problem I'm grand with because, as you rightly say, such a club sounds like they value short term gains ie. neglecting the youth teams for a semi-pro men's team.
The idea would be for clubs to cut their cloth accordingly and only go semi-pro when they have paid coaches, decent facilities and youth teams at every age group.
I'm more concerned with the second problem you mention. To a degree, early struggles are natural (it's a big change after all) but I do worry that there aren't enough clubs who make sure they have a solid base before they go semi-pro. Do you think there's many clubs like this in the LSL and MSL?
It would be cheaper to offer senior players a few quid to play than to operate a youth system. Realistically how many youth players go on to be good enough at senior level
Exactly, that's the problem. A rich local throws the club a few quid to pay players then cuts it out when he's bored. Not the best way of building a sustainable club/fan base.
The idea would be to reward the clubs who have put the hard yards in, built a presence in their communities like LOI clubs are now doing.
What's the point of having an amateur third tier if players can get paid playing at a lower level?
Who - players or clubs - is going to be interested in that?
I think you'd be just hamstringing things with such a strict rule. If a new club can afford to pay players a few quid, let them
I think this is the only sensible approach tbh, as it deals with the game the way it is rather than the way it would be idealistically.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Maybe in very competitive league like Limerick there's an element of that. I don't think Mervue United and Salthill Devon are too bothered about winning the Galway & DL but maybe there's an element of then not being one of the best teams - if a new Division is created obviously some teams have to be at the bottom, though presumably there would be relegation to/from the CSL to the local league.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elfman
I think the Kerry FC project is the way forward for most teams.
I believe the new Mayo FC model is another interesting project.
I think the FAI have to put this out there for all clubs, but itis the clubs that have secure facilities and have developed good structures in place over the years will be better suited for this type of league.
The idea will attract those clubs which will be looking for a new outlet or level for their player development to achieve.
I think the FAI will be looking at clubs like the above to form this league with a definite regional format.
With new TV & Radio deals, let's hope this Third Tier plan is a success as it can only promote the game further.
What in particular about the side that's finished bottom of the First Division in each of their two seasons to date makes them the way forward for most teams?Quote:
Originally Posted by nr637