How was Scales left exposed? He was the only CB in that area, no? It reminded me a bit of the Aberdeen goal at Celtic, where McGrath played a lovely ball inside Scales with no other CB in sight.Quote:
Originally Posted by seanfhear
Clumsy challenge but he was up against a Madrid superstar and I think the combination of yellows resulting in a red was harsh.
You're right, games are not decided at halftime but this might have been the exception had we committed first-half hara-kiri. Only the deluded would take this Ireland team into a game without a strategy that saves them from themselves. If that means parking a first-half bus and frustrating the balls off vastly superior opposition (please don't tell me they're not) then go for it. Otherwise it's 4-0 at the break and 7-0 at the end.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
There's nothing to be gained from that. Hopefully we've learned the lessons of the past few years and replaced dreamers with pragmatists. Hallgrimisson looks nothing more than ok at the moment. Last night's solid first half was largely undone when Scales kicked the ball away in an act of gross unprofessionalism. Hallgrimsson should have replaced him at half-time (O'Shea into the centre and Doherty at right-full) to pre-empt what predictably followed.
And HH should not have claimed the players gave up, they didn't. They were overwhelmed when reduced to ten men, losing their shape and discipline. He contributed to that by not taking action following Scales' faux pas.
I share your distress at losing but, if we're being honest there was embarrassment against England and there was luck (x2) against Finland. That's Ireland in real time.
Like most others I thought the first half was spirited and well organised. Ferguson was definitely fouled and how it wasn't even reviewed is beyond me.
Second half was humiliating. I really felt for Collins coming up to the fans with his hands help up to apologise. I met a pal in the airport on Saturday and I said all I really wanted from the game was to escape with our dignity in tact. Oh well...
But what really boiled my pi$$ most yesterday was the overt militarisation of the pre-match build up. I know we have the army band etc but we never have 50 uniformed soldiers stationed around the pitch unfurling flags. There was a maroon beret in the pack just in front of me. I thought at the time it must have been a para beret, but someone pointed out on X that it wasn't. Either way, I found the whole thing tone deaf and quite antagonistic.
It's pure propaganda. This is why people like James McClean won't wear a poppyQuote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Overall I was very heartened by our support yesterday. I still think there's a great bond between team and fans and a reversal of fortune, however that comes, will bring good days ahead. I saw some criticism in some of my WhatsApp chats of singing The Fields when losing badly, but I thought it was to our credit that we stood up for ourselves when faced with loud renditions of "Ireland getting battered...." by jubilant England fans all around the ground.
I can't really understand why people criticise that to be honest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Would they rather we boo the team or shout abuse at them or stay stony silent?
Scales silly first yellow came back to haunt us ~ Very un-professional from Scales there.
Fair enough with that context but I would much rather we took a leaf from the Girls in Green handbook, or Declan Rice's go to karaoke song, in response to their imperialist BS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Ken Early correctly lamenting the team’s lack of tradecraft.
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soc...arn-to-whinge/
England v Holland in the Euros semi-final springs to mind. Nobody even considered a penalty to England but Kane going down like he’d had an axe wielded on the foot he used to kick his opponent with sent it to VAR which then looked for any reason to award the penalty. We should have been all over the ref last night, and in Greece, when Ferguson was fouled.
I said at the time yesterday that an England player doesn’t get booked for what Scales did and it’s fair to say Kane won that particular psychological episode even if Molumby’s reaction pleased our crowd.
Full piece here:
“Ireland get battered, everywhere they go! Ireland get battered, everywhere they gooo!” The England fans were loving their song-for-the-day, but they also started leaving in large numbers from around 70 minutes, after their side went 4-0 up. Why risk getting stuck in the crowds at Wembley Park Tube station just to see England run in another goal or two against this shambles?
Ireland began with one of their best first-half performances in years and ended with their worst ever defeat to England. What are we to make of this? What kind of a team collapses so abjectly after playing so well?
“I’m kind of lost for words,” said Heimir Hallgrímsson. “Six minutes of madness. It was a shock, conceding a penalty, conceding a goal, losing a player. But we probably lost our heads at this moment, leading to a second goal and a third goal. And from there you can see, we lost our head, gave up ... it clearly took away all confidence from what we did really well in the first half.”
A moment later, Hallgrimsson was backtracking: “Maybe it’s too harsh to say gave up.” His point was that the rapid sequence of shocks early in the second half shattered Ireland’s confidence and scrambled their minds. “I wrote it down – first goal was 52 minutes. Two minutes later, 2-0, by 58 it’s 3-0.”
His point was that it all happened too quickly for the manager to react. But what about the players? Ireland’s capitulation again exposed this team’s fatal lack of gamecraft. Their brittleness is matched only by their naivety.
Confronted with a suddenly rampant opponent, clever teams find ways to slow the game down. Maybe somebody realises they are injured and needs lengthy treatment. A couple of minutes slide by with nothing happening. The panic subsides, the opponents’ momentum slows, the crowd gets bored. Too often Ireland lurch along in a daze, letting the game happen to them.
Nor was this the first time in the game that Ireland’s innocence had cost them. On 21 minutes a long ball had bounced behind the England defence and Evan Ferguson sprinted after it, closing on Marc Guehi. It looked as though Ferguson might be about to force Guehi off the ball, so the English defender yanked him to the ground by the front of his shirt.
The referee, far behind the play, couldn’t have seen the shirt pull but it was a mystery why VAR did not let him know about it. For some reason, though, Ferguson was the only Irish player who appealed.
This was the second time in consecutive away matches that Ireland should have had a penalty for a clear foul on Ferguson, and also the second time that the team did not protest with the kind of vehement outrage that can pressurise the video referee to intervene. Now that the referee’s decision is no longer final, obnoxious appeals can help to swing decisions your way: look how Manchester City react to anything that looks remotely like a foul on a team-mate in the box. Hallgrímsson started this campaign looking for “*******s”, at this point even committed whingers would do.
Note the contrast with what England’s players did on 43 minutes, when Liam Scales kicked the ball away to prevent them taking a quick free kick. Several were immediately shouting at the referee to book Scales, and he quickly obliged. The true significance of this moment became plain six minutes into the second half, when Scales was – somewhat harshly – sent off for a second yellow.
Until that moment, it had been Ireland’s best performance in a long time. Hallgrímsson had admitted on Saturday that the 5-4-1 game plan for the first match against England in September had been a failure. This time Ireland started in a 4-1-4-1, with Nathan Collins playing as a defensive midfielder.
For 45 minutes it really worked. Not because Collins had a brilliant individual performance – he had only nine touches in that first half, fewer than anyone else in the game, and completed only two passes. But his presence closed off the central spaces from which England had done so much damage in the first half in Dublin, forcing them to pass around the sides in search of gaps.
The Irish wingers, Sammie Szmodics and Festy Ebosele, worked hard to close down opponents and as time passed the English crowd fell silent and the English team started to meander. “The first half, it’s a game like we wanted it to be. We were defending compact, they didn’t find ways to play through us,” Hallgrímsson said afterwards.
Harry Kane, anxious to remind everyone of his worth to the team after being left out of the side in Athens last Thursday, was hardly involved. When he came deep around 20 minutes to get on the ball Molumby slammed into him and knocked the ball away. A little later Kane turned on to a pass and ran, only for Scales to send him flying with a spectacular block tackle. The Irish fans loved that and their delight increased when Kane’s annoyance boiled over and he turned and threw Molumby to the ground.
But Kane was to have the last laugh, creating the penalty situation with a wicked swerving pass to Jude Bellingham and then sending Caoimhin Kelleher the wrong way from the spot. The farcical nature of England’s second goal – a mis-hit clearance by Collins bouncing off Josh Cullen and plopping into the path of Anthony Gordon – added insult to injury. The shell-shocked Irish defenders seemed to forget to defend the near post at the corner from which England got their third, scored by Gallagher from Guehi’s flick on.
The fourth was a poorly defended set-piece, with Ireland not noticing Jarred Bowen lurking unmarked on the edge of the box, the mass of defenders serving only to block Kelleher’s view of the ball. The fifth was a good header by Taylor Harwood-Bellis after Mark McGuinness failed to reach Bellingham’s cross. The win sent England back to League A, where they can pick on people their own size. Ireland can only hope that the lessons of a painful evening stick in their memory.
Can a performance be framed as good if we offer no goal threat? Understand the need to sit in and frustrate, but you have to find a way to score and win the game. And this was the perfect opportunity to do that with an eye on the future WC qualification campaign - we were finishing the NL group in third no matter what the result. Looking at that England team, they played novices at full back and we have a squad with trickery + pace out wide. Could we have offered a counter attacking threat? I think so.
I thought we carried a reasonable counter attacking threat in the first half. That's not to dismiss the second half collapse but for me the tactics were about right given the resources we had at hand. England were getting frustrated and we nearly got in a couple of times on the break. Could really have used Ogbene last night but had to settle for Festy... not that he was poor but Oggy has a good bit more about him.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
Talk about antagonistic, I really cannot abide the English fans booing opposing national anthems. When it's ours it cuts deep but I've seen them do it to every other nation. My abiding memory of English fans and national anthems came not at football match but during the Ricky Hatton fight versus Floyd Mayweather. I was with a group of Americans who really didn't know Hatton. The pre-fight build up warmed them up to Ricky but once the American national anthem was struck up and they started booing it, the Americans turned right off the Englishman. If those fans only realized how many people they ostracize by doing what they do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
FourFourTwo examine England's tactics in the game
Initial emotion was anger and frustration at the ref and VAR. The first penalty on Ferguson was obvious and clear, the second I think was a penalty as well, I know Walker heads the ball but he just cushions it into Szmodics path. Then he clips his heels and takes him down. Scales was stupid for the first yellow card, it was just needless - but I don’t think the ref needs to give a yellow card for the penalty. Genuinely think if he hadn’t given the card, no one would have spoken about it - and I do think the second yellow should have a higher threshold. And if the ref is going to be a stickler, then Bellingham kicks the ball away (off the advertising hoardings and behind the goal) for our goal kick when he’s off the pitch, so Kelleher can’t take it quickly and that’s a second yellow card - would be incredibly incredibly harsh but would be consistent with the way he reffed it.
Don’t think we reacted to the sending off well at all but there was a degree of luck involved in the second goal with both Collins and Cullen getting in each other’s way and the ball somehow bounces onto Gordon’s foot. The next goal was borderline offside based on where you draw the sleeve of the jersey. An extra man in the box defending probably stops all of the subsequent goals after the penalty.
The first half display was limited, excellent defensively, and while people can talk about a lack of shots on target, every attack we had there was a foul not given. The two penalty shouts and Festy just outside the box and someone else on the left wing. Think we were unlucky not to go in a goal up.
The changes we made really annoyed me. As soon as we had a man sent off, it was clear to me that the only way we’d have any joy was if we had genuine pace on a counter attack and that meant Szmodics and Ferguson off and Johnston and Cannon in their place. Also Molumby was on a booking and was afraid to make a tackle after the red - don’t mind if you want to bring on Jake O’Brien and leave Collins in midfield or if you just want to bring on a replacement midfielder but Molumby spent the rest of the game tiptoeing around. The changes came too late and were flawed. It was quickly too late but even still, Troy gave absolutely nothing and the subs made us worse.
Only positive in the second half was Andy Moran, looked very good, willing to carry the ball into dangerous areas and play intelligent passes in tight spaces.
Thinking about it now, this team doesn't need psychologists... it needs a lunatic or two to come in with no rational sense of where we are at in world football and who refuse to accept the situation. Will take a personality or two like that to lift the team out of its 'nice' (to each other as well as the opposition) phase.
Harry Kane does not need to remind anybody of anything. He is an incredible talent as proven in the EPL, Bundesliga and at international level. In this instance, Molumby was an absolute clown, an embarrassment. Falling to the ground clutching his face despite featherweight contact. He's always a liability, now he's a laughing stock.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Allowing uncontested possession about 10 yards in front your own box for huge parts of the first 45 minutes sowed the seeds for what we reaped,it was like a training exercise of forwards v defenders.
There was no sense of urgency to try and get the ball back.
Support from the Irish there on the night was brilliant.
After the first 10 minutes, I was convinced it would be 4-0 (Walker had two free headers from set-pieces alone and their open play was incisive), but when we managed to get to half-time without conceding I began to reconsider my initial assessment. England seemed to take their foot off the pedal a little bit around 20 minutes or so and our lads had grown in confidence having successfully stymied them.
The pass from Kane to Bellingham in the lead up to the penalty was like something Lionel Messi would produce. Scales should still do better and avoid conceding the penalty, but it happens.
I wouldn't be too harsh on Scales for his first yellow card or, for that matter, Molumby's antics with Kane and Walker. This is precisely what HH means when he says he wants "b*st*rds" in the team. They obviously need to be cuter about it though. Our boys are not yet proficient in the Dark Arts and "managing the game", but that will come.
I think the ceiling for a second yellow should be higher, as ES already said. It was a foul, they happen, but while Scales is getting flak it seems like Ferguson and Collins aren’t, despite pretty costly errors. I think the fact is simply that against teams of England’s calibre mistakes will be ruthlessly punished.
I too thought the first 10 mins were ominous but after that it felt like they were just doing passing drills, not because they weren’t trying but because we gave them no room.
On the plus side, was our performance any worse than Scotland v Germany? They’ve recovered well from a comprehensive 5-1 battering (also with 10 men for a fair bit). I’d be looking to that for encouragement.
In the context of what Stutts said I think the singing at 5 nil down is fair enough. I will say usually if we are losing badly Im generally too angry and pi$$ed off to even consider singing. Its like the Mexican wave at games, drives me nuts during a big gameQuote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I think Scales has clearly tripped Bellingham eight yards out from goal with only O'Dowda nearby to stop a shot that has a high chance of going in. To be honest, there may be more a case that he avoided a direct red by virtue of the double jeopardy rule than that he shouldn't have been booked at all. (I don't think it was a straight red - O'Dowda was probably close enough to cover - but for me it's closer a straight red than nothing at all. A yellow is entirely reasonable for me)Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Is that the rule though? If he stops a clear scoring chance then it’s a definite yellow? I was wondering if that might be the case. It deemed to me like an instinctive flick out of the leg and that a penalty was punishment enough but if there’s a definite directive on it then that’s that I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I thought Kane could be a straight red because he raised his hands but unfortunately it was more of a push of the chest than a strike to the face like Molumby was trying to make out.
We definitely need to get cuter in how we play the ref. The blatant lack of VAR was shocking and if surrounding the ref and protesting makes the video ref look at it properly then so be it.
Even Ferguson barely protested
Yeah, fair, but at same time it was a “normal” foul and not a bad tackle by any description.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Overall I thought the ref was very officious and at times just plain wrong.
I was at the rugby in Dublin on Friday. A yellow card changed the game entirely. Argentina were 5 maybe 7 points ahead after 3 minutes, then reversed, Argentina yellow, then before you could blink we were 12-0 up substantially due to the man advantage. A 17 point swing in minutes. I’m not saying the rugby yellow was wrong, it wasn’t, but shows how game changing it can be.
In that context, back to the footy, I think a ref can take the whole context into account in the Scales case: soft technical yellow followed by an honest non-violent tackle, penalty awarded, 40 minutes left and making the whole outcome certain.
Do I really want to be the officious ***** who completely decides the game or do I exercise some discretion? If the situation was reversed I think he’d have hesitated to send an England player off. He hesitated to award us a pretty certain penalty so I think I know the answer to my own question.
And even worse, it completely negated arguably the best meme tackle ever by an Irish player in the social media era :)
Yep - see here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixer82
My emphasis on "must". You can argue over whether it was an obvious goal-scoring opportunity or not, but again, given there was only O'Dowda back and given Bellingham's position eight yards out and central, I think it's a fairly good chance he was going to get a shot away. For me, Scales has given the ref no choice there.Quote:
There are different circumstances when a player must be cautioned for unsporting behaviour including if a player:
denies an opponent an obvious goal-scoring opportunity by committing an offence which was an attempt to play the ball or challenge for the ball and the referee awards a penalty kick
Certainly wasn't a bad or even a cynical foul. But for the rule, that doesn't matter (see above). Scales knows the rules too (you would hope) - I don't like this idea of blaming the ref for "completely deciding" a game when really it's the player who's done it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
The referee was atrocious. Your post is spot on. Someone else mentioned it too on a previous page. The penalty calls were one thing, but there were 2-3 frees in decent positions (where we could have tested Pickford directly) that somehow went uncalled. I also thought - and so did some others i was chatting to at the time - that the second yellow was "debatable" (my words). And he couldnt wait to give Scales the first yellow where a warning would have sufficed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
When you lose 5 nil its hard to focus on the ref too much, but I have to admit I think it is relevant in this case. A few days removed from the game Im still not particularly pi$$ed off about it tbh. Maybe its just that we've been so beaten down over the last few years that its hard to care anymore, but even in the last few years Ive been more annoyed by lesser scores.
We've had plenty of games over the years where we've got a battering by the other team and somehow managed to get a result out of it. Russia away when Richard Dunne was amazing, the Germany Shane Long game, you can even go back as far as Euro 88 against the English when Houghton scored, we were murdered that day but managed to get a win.... I say all that to say that with the right rub of the green and some competent refereeing that 1st half was setting us up for another one of those results potentially. Its all ifs, buts and maybes but it was going well.
I know people have said that a defensive backs to the wall performance in one half of football should be nothing to celebrate, but for me it was about how the manager had learned the lessons from previous games and come up with a plan that was different to what we had seen previously under him. Thats the part I found encouraging. The roll of Collins in particular was something that has been called for for years on these pages and it was working really well. I always argued against Collins being played as a midfielder, and Im still not sure its the answer going forward but it was good. Kane wasnt getting a sniff and Kelleher really wasnt having a huge amount to do. If we had gotten at least 1 of those penalties going into half time then things might have been very different.
Now, we dont know if we would have held on in the 2nd half even with 11 men on the pitch. I still think however there was a massive dose of sh1te luck the way the 3 goals came so close together. The 2nd goal was just such a lucky bounce, and the 3rd wasnt great defending but was a baby toe from being offside. Then it was game over and we gave some subs a run (btw its a conversation for maybe another time, but I thought Manning showed in his time on the pitch why managers dont pick him unless forced to).
We've come away from the Nations League disappointed as usual, but I really do think there are potential positives with this manager for the future. Hes shown that hes not afraid to make big decisions and have a bit of accountability for the players. Leaving out Doherty and Browne after the Greek mistakes shows that he has a bit of steel in him and I think as the squad continue to expand with young players there is true competition for places and no one is guaranteed to be picked if they are not playing well. We've also seen that hes willing to mix up the tactics a bit, and it may take a little more time for players to get used to that, but again it shows that hes not just stubborn with one system like some managers in the past. It does show that not giving him friendlies before these games was criminal from the FAI.
Despite the result i find myself strangely encouraged. I think England were always likely to find a way through eventually, and it was an obvious penalty and yellow card for me. It was the first yellow card that might have been avoided. Scales needs to learn from that. It was completely unneccesary and cost him in the end. After that the combination of us having to chase the game and the extra space England had against 10 men was too much for us, and we fell apart.
I'd also say the injuries contributed to the collapse. A couple of wise old heads on the field might have helped.
On another night we get the penalty and make it to into the dressing room a goal up.
Onwards and upwards.
That was me Razor. :-) This is the way I see it. We are facing a WC campaign that is just 6 games. A sprint. Goals scored and matches won will have outsized gains. With the bigger picture of WC qualification on the horizon, why play for a 0-0 in a dead rubber game? Agree HH is willing to mix up the tactics – and I’d actually be more positive leaning on that. Far better to be adaptable/ flexible than set in our ways. However, after six games with HH, we do not know our strongest line-up, we do not know our best shape, we haven’t solved the midfield, we have not fixed the gaping hole on our left side, we don’t score goals, and we concede buckets. Our future is the hope of an easy draw. There’s been time to reflect since Sunday and listen to the other side. But for me, we’ve been here before – taking short term positives to miss out on the longer term gains.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
There's a few things in there, but firstly the question about playing for a 0-0. I didn't quite see it that way, but it was at least pragmatic. He seen how much of a hiding we got in the home game and set out to not have that happen again. I thought the last 15 mins of the 1st half we actually attacked a bit and we did create 2 potential penalty situations. I don't see a lot wrong with going away to a team that we know are better than us and keeping things tight, especially early and seeing if we can get something on the break. There's no point in trying to go toe to toe with every team.... now of course it went tit's up but I still seen something reasonably valuable in that 1st half.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
Not knowing our strongest lineup I think is ok too, we have fairly good competition for places in some areas so I think it's good that we don't have a set 11.
The midfield and left side are separate issues, I think that's a personel issue that we have to wait for someone to come along and help with rather than a fix by the manager. That said, the sweeper type position Collins played was promising. I think Smallbone being out is a big loss tbh, and we may see Moran and Lawal make a regular claim there soon too. Azaz I would also like to see deeper than the 2nd striker position we've used him in. As for the left side, Brady has done well and we missed him this window, but I've honestly no clue what the long term answer is.
I'm with you in thinking we've been here before, but I guess my point is that I just wouldn't take a whole lot of negatives from that England game, which is a bit mental given the score. I don't know for certain that Hallgrimsson is definitely the man for the long term, but I've seen enough so far that makes me think we have a chance of doing well with him... we'll see
It's a fair point HH really only has 12 months left in the role unless we qualify for the world Cup, which from where we are now would be an outrageous achievementQuote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
Snowed in with work, so can’t reply fully to your post but on this – the two penalties that weren’t stemmed from long balls aimed at Evan. Evan is not a target or a pacey striker than gets in behind defences. I don’t see those opportunites as indicative of creativity/ a pre-designed attacking threat as we’re are not actually trying to capitalise on Evan’s strengths, rather they are low percentage, relief balls playing to his weaknesses. Btw, a strong and weaker penalty shout were high returns for those long balls – because ultimately they are low percentages balls that 9 out 10 times give possession away (especially in a low block as we are too deep to compete for eventual second balls). Not something to hang the positivity hat on imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
Look I'm not saying it was perfect by any means, but going to Wembley and keeping things tight is how we should have approached the game, anything else would have been silly. Whether those 2 penalty claims came from good play or pure luck is kind of irrelevant given that we were in around their box and should have gotten something from it. To me that's playing the best hand we have against top teams, even if it doesn't necessarily suit Ferguson in that particular game..... but if we approached every game like that I'd have a massive problem with it. That was the only game so far he's approached like that and we have played some half decent football at times in the other games so far. He knows Evan is who he needs to build around for the long term, and proof of that is when he played both games in previous window when he really wasn't fit.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
I'm not going to say I have total confidence in Hallgrimsson yet, he's definitely made mistakes, but he has also done things I've like so I'm willing to keep positive about him for now even after that result at the weekend
Interesting read. But our strongest line-up when burdened with our left-side weakness, our feeble midfield, our leaking-bucket defence and our goal-shy forwards is not a strong line-up at all. Szmodics looks like taking the Aldridge 20-game road to goal while hell's fury awaits any non-flattering Ferguson reassessment.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
But HH taking the Mick/Jack road against quality opponents - as in the promising first-half is to his credit. It ultimately saved an even bigger thumping. There was definitely hope heading into the second half but we impoded following Scales dismissal. Fact is - he shouldn't have started the second half.
I left the house this morning to be greeted by my England season ticket holder neighbour. Luckily I had headphones on and pointed to them as a reason why I couldn't talk. I still have the satisfaction of saying hi to him as he came home from Wembley at around 11pm having lost on penalities to Italy.
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