Games weekend 26th 27th May

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Originally Posted by ontheotherhand

Consistently? Ah come on. You just posted a video from 2015 to somehow backup the idea that Towell had any intent at all in 2023. Even Cawley's quotes around that incident are contradictory to your take e.g “It’s very unlike Richie Towell, I know.”

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As I mentioned, that incident is one of the worst I recall, not that it was the most recent. It’s next to impossible to provide a video clip of every incident from this league particularly when most go unpunished, that clip was an easy google as there were several articles written about it it was that bad. Just from watching Towell over the last few years it’s something I’ve noticed, keep an eye on it anyways as I’m sure he'll get bookings for similar.

As for Alan Cawley's quote, I wouldn’t take much notice of it as for some reason no pundit goes to town on a player that causes a serious injury. He stated that it was deliberate but then took the sting out of it by saying it’s very unlike him. For example I’ve lost count of the amount of times I’ve seen Heung Min Son seriously injure an opponent with some filthy tackles and every single time without fail the "he’s not that sort of player" line gets towed out by pundits, similarly to Harry Kane who almost every game backs into defenders who are in the air jumping which will one day result in a broken neck, yet he’s also "Not that sort of player" apparently

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Originally Posted by ontheotherhand

If Towell had any intent he would have done serious damage at that range. He doesn't connect. He doesn't come close. Are we going to card tackles that MIGHT have been late? The Cork player gets up delighted with himself when the red is shown which is all anyone really needs to know. It was a con job. It wasn't the worst decision on the night to be fair but the evidence is there to show it wasn't a red card. It was closer to a free out than a red but a caution for both players would have been the good refereeing decision.

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But Towell was sent off for "violent conduct" not for "kicking the Cork player in the head". So the evidence backs this up.

I really don't think we should be getting to a situation where we're reviewing every decision and putting pressure on referees and assistants after the game to overturn their decision. Where does it stop? What if some referees are more open to reversing their decision than others?

The only thing I would be in favour of would be a retrospective ban of Gordon Walker for his part in getting Towell sent-off.

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Originally Posted by ontheotherhand

He doesn't connect. He doesn't come close. Are we going to card tackles that MIGHT have been late?

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Actually, tackles that might have connected are regularly carded. It's the risk of injury that counts, not whether an injury was actually caused.

So a two-footed tackle that wins the ball can still be a red card if it was reckless and potentially endangered an opposition player.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Actually, tackles that might have connected are regularly carded. It's the risk of injury that counts, not whether an injury was actually caused.

So a two-footed tackle that wins the ball can still be a red card if it was reckless and potentially endangered an opposition player.

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Not what I meant Stu. If Towell had attempted to kick the lad and missed it would be a red. He didn't. He hasn't quite found his shooting boots for rovers but he isn't so wayward that he'd miss from 10 inches out.

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Originally Posted by ontheotherhand

Not what I meant Stu.

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Well it is what you said in fairness! :)

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Originally Posted by ontheotherhand

If Towell had attempted to kick the lad and missed it would be a red.

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It looks to me like he did.

There's no reason for his left leg to extend in the way it did...it's not a natural part of falling as he was.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Well it is what you said in fairness! :)

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I said a tackle that might have been late isn't a cardable offense. You can't just invent intent. You're saying a bad tackle that doesn't connect is still a red which is correct but a different scenario. I didn't even mention the quality of the tackle. I'm talking purely about intent.

People are seeing a kick when there was no kick at all. It's odd but I get it. The combo of Richie Towell and Shamrock Rovers is clearly troubling for some!

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Originally Posted by JC_GUFC

But Towell was sent off for "violent conduct" not for "kicking the Cork player in the head". So the evidence backs this up.

I really don't think we should be getting to a situation where we're reviewing every decision and putting pressure on referees and assistants after the game to overturn their decision. Where does it stop? What if some referees are more open to reversing their decision than others?

The only thing I would be in favour of would be a retrospective ban of Gordon Walker for his part in getting Towell sent-off.

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Maybe if I wasn't a Rovers man I'd see it your way JC. You've made reasonable points. We do disagree on the idea that there was violent conduct but we are working of pretty poor footage. I think any of us would struggle to keep our leg frozen if we were dragged on to our arse at a reasonable velocity.

Your point in bold is worth discussing though. I'd ask where it actually starts? Clearly things aren't working. Owen Cowzer reported that players actually met the refs last week to figure out a way to communicate better. There seems to be no transparency around decisions or any ability to roll them back. The old system seemed to work better whereby a player could at least get their ban reduced if they were able to state their case in person successfully. Now it seems that we have a stricter bunch of refs with a less flexible process. I'd expected the opposite this season, at least in terms of flexibility. I think everyone was happy to hear about the new appeal process but as it stands it just seems far too difficult and even costs the clubs money.

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Originally Posted by ontheotherhand

I said a tackle that might have been late isn't a cardable offense. You can't just invent intent. You're saying a bad tackle that doesn't connect is still a red which is correct but a different scenario. I didn't even mention the quality of the tackle. I'm talking purely about intent.

People are seeing a kick when there was no kick at all. It's odd but I get it. The combo of Richie Towell and Shamrock Rovers is clearly troubling for some!

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Intent has nothing to do with anything. Words like intent and malice were removed from the laws a while ago. If a player attempts to punch a wasp but actually makes contact with a player's face instead, that's a red card. If he doesn't even make contact, but comes within an couple of inches of a player's face, he has endangered the safety of that player, and that's still a red card.

If Towell flicks out his foot like he did for some other reason, but it still gets that close a player's face, I've no problem with that being a red card.

The idea that we see what we want see just because it's Rovers is just childish.

The situation is a farce now.
Pay 500 appeal thrown out , no face to face meetings , automatic 3 game ban.

There is literally no chance with a personal hearing and the video footage available Towell would have got a 3 game ban last season...would have been 1.
What we have now is a farce and the clubs need to band together to get it changed.

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Originally Posted by osarusan

Intent has nothing to do with anything. Words like intent and malice were removed from the laws a while ago. If a player attempts to punch a wasp but actually makes contact with a player's face instead, that's a red card. If he doesn't even make contact, but comes within an couple of inches of a player's face, he has endangered the safety of that player, and that's still a red card.

If Towell flicks out his foot like he did for some other reason, but it still gets that close a player's face, I've no problem with that being a red card.

The idea that we see what we want see just because it's Rovers is just childish.

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Ah yes, football fans and their famous freedom from bias!

Tom Grivosti suffered a ruptured anterior cruciate knee ligament for Pats on Friday,seemed to very short in that area now….

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Originally Posted by sbgawa

The situation is a farce now.
Pay 500 appeal thrown out , no face to face meetings , automatic 3 game ban.

There is literally no chance with a personal hearing and the video footage available Towell would have got a 3 game ban last season...would have been 1.
What we have now is a farce and the clubs need to band together to get it changed.

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Do you know what footage was submitted?
If it was the footage from behind the goal I can see what the appeal was rejected because that footage doesn’t clear anything up.

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Originally Posted by joey B

Tom Grivosti suffered a ruptured anterior cruciate knee ligament for Pats on Friday,seemed to very short in that area now….

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Speaking of ACLs - which seem to be increasingly common for some reason - Colm Whelan is undergoing exploratory surgery to see the extent of his injury as tests so far have been inconclusive. I guess that sounds like a good thing?

https://www.derryjournal.com/sport/f...-hours-4159175

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Speaking of ACLs - which seem to be increasingly common for some reason - Colm Whelan is undergoing exploratory surgery to see the extent of his injury as tests so far have been inconclusive. I guess that sounds like a good thing?

https://www.derryjournal.com/sport/f...-hours-4159175

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I suppose it's better than being sure it was the ACL? Hope it works out for him.

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Originally Posted by Philosophizer

Do you know what footage was submitted?
If it was the footage from behind the goal I can see what the appeal was rejected because that footage doesn’t clear anything up.

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So at least two pieces of video evidence presented and both being described as evidence inconclusive …. Based on any normal review procedure that would lead to the appeal being upheld.

Can you imagine in your workplace someone making an accusation against you and then you’re suspended for three weeks…. You then attend the LRC and your employer can’t provide any evidence but the suspension still stands…… would never happen in the real world…..

The evidence is that the linesman/referee - the officials whose job it is to see these things - saw Towell kick out at an opponent on the ground.

There's no conclusive evidence that he didn't. Indeed, a number of (non-Rovers) fans have said that's exactly what it looks like from the footage shown here.

So why would an appeal succeed?

Hope Grivosti and Whelan are on the road to recovery soon.
I can't say I've noticed Grivosti much other than the exotic surname but he seemed like he was doing a decent job in defence for Pats.
Whelan you couldn't fail to notice as he looks like a real prospect - hopefully these injury worries will make him more determined to succeed- I read somewhere that he has still scored more in the 90 mins he's played than any of the other derry strikers have all done all season..

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Speaking of ACLs - which seem to be increasingly common for some reason - Colm Whelan is undergoing exploratory surgery to see the extent of his injury as tests so far have been inconclusive. I guess that sounds like a good thing?

https://www.derryjournal.com/sport/f...-hours-4159175

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Crazy that he was kept on the pitch that day with his history of acl issues.

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Originally Posted by sbgawa

The situation is a farce now.
Pay 500 appeal thrown out , no face to face meetings , automatic 3 game ban.

There is literally no chance with a personal hearing and the video footage available Towell would have got a 3 game ban last season...would have been 1.
What we have now is a farce and the clubs need to band together to get it changed.

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There’s no evidence Rovers could have supplied to get the ban removed. Towell made his intentions known when he attempted to kick out regardless if contact was made. He deserved the three game ban, he might think twice about doing it in future.

It’s like attempting to committing a robbery, failing and then complaining you’ve to face the consequences of attempted robbery as a result.

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Originally Posted by Sideshow Bob

“Convicted of a crime I didn’t even commit. Hah! Attempted murder? Now honestly, what is that? Do they give a Nobel Prize for attempted chemistry? Do they?”

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Only one way to solve this one now. We all go for a pint at the end of the season, get the debate going until tempers rise a bit. Then I'll wrestle ten of you and reef you down on to your arses. If even one of you can keep your leg frozen after impact I'll concede that Richie Towell was attempting to kick the lad in the face and is just so bad at kicking that he couldn't connect. Pints on me if so.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

The evidence is that the linesman/referee - the officials whose job it is to see these things - saw Towell kick out at an opponent on the ground.

There's no conclusive evidence that he didn't. Indeed, a number of (non-Rovers) fans have said that's exactly what it looks like from the footage shown here.

So why would an appeal succeed?

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As there is no conclusive evidence from either video reviewed; Towell’s guilt is based solely on the opinion of the linesman , which at best is just an opinion but not proven fact.

So if you can’t prove the incident occurred despite having video evidence then natural justice means you have to allow the appeal .

What’s become very clear from this is that the clubs have agreed to an appeal process that is a farce and biased and doesn’t lend itself to the application of due process underpinned by a set of fair procedures….. a first year law student will tell you that if challenged in court it would most likely be thrown out….. with costs awarded to the party taking the case….. I’m disappointed there’s no sign of Rovers/a number of clubs doing that, hopefully behind the scenes they’ll threaten that to use as leverage to have a fair process put in place.

Otherwise refs and assistants know they are immune from any correction so will continue to operate at their current mediocre arrogant level to the detriment of all clubs.

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Originally Posted by Philosophizer

Crazy that he was kept on the pitch that day with his history of acl issues.

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Has that bit every been explained by Derry? It seemed awful at the time. Lad was in tears.

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Originally Posted by Calcio Jack

As there is no conclusive evidence from either video reviewed; Towell’s guilt is based solely on the opinion of the linesman , which at best is just an opinion but not proven fact.

So if you can’t prove the incident occurred despite having video evidence then natural justice means you have to allow the appeal.

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But lots of us have said Towell does appear to kick out in the video.

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Originally Posted by Calcio Jack

As there is no conclusive evidence from either video reviewed; Towell’s guilt is based solely on the opinion of the linesman , which at best is just an opinion but not proven fact.

So if you can’t prove the incident occurred despite having video evidence then natural justice means you have to allow the appeal .

What’s become very clear from this is that the clubs have agreed to an appeal process that is a farce and biased and doesn’t lend itself to the application of due process underpinned by a set of fair procedures….. a first year law student will tell you that if challenged in court it would most likely be thrown out….. with costs awarded to the party taking the case….. I’m disappointed there’s no sign of Rovers/a number of clubs doing that, hopefully behind the scenes they’ll threaten that to use as leverage to have a fair process put in place.

Otherwise refs and assistants know they are immune from any correction so will continue to operate at their current mediocre arrogant level to the detriment of all clubs.

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But ... what did we do for the 125 years or so before we had video evidence?

Now, I'm no expert, so this is a layman's question and not a smart-ar5e dig (you're not usually the type to deserve that CJ, though I do think you're a bit het-up about this) - but would the same first year law student also tell you that you don't challenge this kind of thing in the courts? You sign up to the same rules and processes that every other club has has signed up to, and you can appeal, or try to, all the way to CAS?

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Originally Posted by ontheotherhand

Has that bit every been explained by Derry? It seemed awful at the time. Lad was in tears.

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I haven’t heard any explanation.
That article in the Derry Journal does have one very notable paragraph…
“The Derry City medical team have been extremely cautious in terms of Whelan's rehabilitation since arriving at the club and gently introduced him into full training having undergone and passed all the necessary tests in recent months.”
I wouldn’t have any doubt that the medical team did everything right. Medics are generally like that - they do whatever they can to protect the player.
But Higgins made the call to keep him on the pitch that time, which was foolish in the extreme. The lad could easily have done further serious damage playing on in that state.

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Originally Posted by Eminence Grise

But ... what did we do for the 125 years or so before we had video evidence?

Now, I'm no expert, so this is a layman's question and not a smart-ar5e dig (you're not usually the type to deserve that CJ, though I do think you're a bit het-up about this) - but would the same first year law student also tell you that you don't challenge this kind of thing in the courts? You sign up to the same rules and processes that every other club has has signed up to, and you can appeal, or try to, all the way to CAS?

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The reason I keep referring to a court challenge is partly to demonstrate that the appeals process is flawed and therefore wouldn’t stand up up to scrutiny in a court… Legal advice would be that you’d win…. Business advice most likely is that it would be a pyrrhic victory , so you wouldn’t take it on.

yes all the clubs signed up however what is now clear imo is (1) they signed up to a set of unfair procedures (2) unless changed all clubs going forward will suffer under this.

I’m not overly ‘het-up’ I’m just one of those people who does get agitated when I encounter flawed one sided unfair conditions ( even if the clubs signed up to them still doesn’t make them right) that allow one party to exercise coercive control over another whilst pretending that both sides are operating on level playing field ( bad pun intended). I guess growing up in this country in the 60s/70s I’ve (rightly) had little or no respect for most institutions .

Anyway roll on Friday and we’ll get the latest round in the referring debacle 2023 and hopefully some great games as well.

Ps what did we do for 125 years before video evidence…. The same as we did before dna, fingerprinting etc. not being smart in other words you can only use the tools available at any given time

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Originally Posted by joey B

Tom Grivosti suffered a ruptured anterior cruciate knee ligament for Pats on Friday,seemed to very short in that area now….

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Gutted for him, hasn't had any luck this season. Has been a quality player for us, massively underrated at that, but that'll probably be the last time he plays for us you'd imagine.

Leaves us extremely light at the back now. Grivosti, Redmond, Sjoberg, Brockback out injured with McGrath having just been announced as about to be released by Coventry so who knows if he stays on. Might be a ropey next few weeks for us.

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Originally Posted by Calcio Jack

Legal advice would be that you’d win….

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What legal advice?

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

What legal advice?

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From my inner solicitor

Well you know what they say about the person who represents himself :)

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Well you know what they say about the person who represents himself :)

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And the shoemaker’s son didn’t always go barefoot ?

Is it time to bring up the even worse calls to send off Kenny and Hoare or........?

Tommy Barrett "One of our players is a postman and he did 18,000 steps before we played Galway. The Galway boys were up sunning themselves, relaxing."

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Originally Posted by Jack B

Gutted for him, hasn't had any luck this season. Has been a quality player for us, massively underrated at that, but that'll probably be the last time he plays for us you'd imagine.

Leaves us extremely light at the back now. Grivosti, Redmond, Sjoberg, Brockback out injured with McGrath having just been announced as about to be released by Coventry so who knows if he stays on. Might be a ropey next few weeks for us.

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Awful for Grivosti, especially after just coming back. Not sure why you reckon hel’ll be leaving, but I suppose you could be right. We are worryingly bare at the back now . If Sjoberg is out for any length of time it’s a full blown crisis. We might just get by with him at right back, Sam Curtis and McGrath in the centre and Breslin left back. Other than that we’ve only got Noah Lewis, who has looked shaky. I wonder will we bring in anyone else ?

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Originally Posted by TonyD

I wonder will we bring in anyone else ?

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Id say that’s an absolute certainty to be honest. I think we needed another defender in the door even before Grivosti's injury. With the money that's up for grabs in Europe in terms of getting through a round this summer as well as qualification for next season, we'd be kissing goodbye to chances of either without bringing in a centre back of starting 11 quality in the window.

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Originally Posted by TonyD

Awful for Grivosti, especially after just coming back. Not sure why you reckon hel’ll be leaving, but I suppose you could be right. We are worryingly bare at the back now . If Sjoberg is out for any length of time it’s a full blown crisis. We might just get by with him at right back, Sam Curtis and McGrath in the centre and Breslin left back. Other than that we’ve only got Noah Lewis, who has looked shaky. I wonder will we bring in anyone else ?

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He's out of contract at the end of the season and has an injury that usually takes around 6-9 months to return from, can't see us giving him a new deal in the off season at that rate.

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Originally Posted by ontheotherhand

Has that bit every been explained by Derry? It seemed awful at the time. Lad was in tears.

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Not cruciate, it seems, but he's out for the season. Crap.

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Originally Posted by brendy_éire

Not cruciate, it seems, but he's out for the season. Crap.

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Ah that's brutal. Speedy recovery to him.