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Haven’t seen him play for Watford but watched him in the recent U21 games against Sweden. Gets caught in possession a bit too often for my liking. See what happens between now and March, but Johnston is a level above him imo and that’s who is competing with for a squad place.
I know it's only one game, but they were on the same pitch on Saturday and Vata was miles ahead of Johnston on the day. I'd be surprised if there's much, if anything, between them at the moment and Vata is about six years younger as well.
There's a rule in journalism that, if the opposite of the story(here that Halgrimsson is not watching Vata) is more interesting, then the story itself is not worth publishing
Clearly that doesn't apply to social media
Hallgrimsson was saying recently that he'll be spending December and January watching players that he hasn't looked at yet and those who are Irish eligible. As he normally used to do it with Iceland and Jamaica for January friendlies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
On wyscoutQuote:
Originally Posted by ~YTM~
Given that he'll be looking at many players who will likely not end up playing for Ireland (as well as hopefully a few that do) that would seem to be the best way to do it initially to be honest.
March is too soon and too important - only players who are ready to go should be in the squad. Possibly for summer friendlies to see if he's an option for WCQQuote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
With Ogbene injured, in the last window we had: Ebosele, Johnston, McAteer, Szmodics (not that Szmodics is particularly a winger but he played wide left in the second game - and with Cannon, Ferguson and Parrott as strikers, that’s kinda how you line up the squad.Quote:
Originally Posted by samhaydenjr
In the September camp, you had Callum Robinson, who impressed as a sub against Greece. I also think Marcus Harness probably deserved a call up that squad - he impressed as a sub against both Liverpool and City - but was victim of the fact that they signed Ogbene, Jack Clarke and Szmodics just before the deadline.
So unless you think Neil Farrugia deserves a call-up, those are the players who Rocco Vata is competing against for a space.
Think the options pool is broader. Brady, Manning and O’Dowda are all converted wingers so can be considered options in a time of need. Mark Sykes has gone off the radar a bit but is an experienced Championship level player. I suppose you can throw Aaron Connolly in there as well (prefer him wide than as a 9).
The difference with Vata though is that he's a teenager and he's eligible for four countries. So, I suppose you have two options. You can either "Rice" it and not call him up until he has 100% proven that he has moved past enough older players in the queue, by which time he'll be playing for Scotland, Albania or Montenegro.
Or you can make an assessment, based on his performances relative to his age, that he has a high ceiling as a player and move to get him involved at the next available opportunity, to confirm his international team as being Ireland. Provided the player himself is happy to be selected on that basis of course.
Just checked Soccerway - Vata has a total of 450 minutes of first-team football so I definitely think we can hold off for a few extra months until the summer and see how he progresses in the meantime. As Elatedscum noted, we're not in a major bind for wide players.
If we allow selection decisions to be skewed by eligibility, we will be constantly chopping and changing, and more worryingly, fielding under-strength teams. This is against the interests of all involved and a sure way to build resentment in the dressing room. Sure, Vata has options but so too have many of our promising underage players. The easiest and most fair option for all, prospects and current senior internationals, is to pick on merit. And as the next squad selection is far away in the future, Vata has plenty of time and opportunity to play himself into contention on merit. Good luck to him.
We literally only had 23 players in our last squad so it's not as though there isn't room. But, I suppose, since the wait and see approach has worked out so well for us in the past...
Well that was by HH's choice rather than the absence of anyone extra available though?
Sure, but the point is you don't need to call up someone like Vata at the expense of anyone else who was in the last squad. There's plenty of space. Personally I think if Heimer is keen to go with the trimmed down squads he should at least be having a couple of additional spots as unofficial development places each time. The rugby team do this to good effect and it's notable how often the supposed development players impress and end up being capped on merit.
As it happens I was talking to an extended family member at the weekend just there who is a close family friend of a former international footballer who was eligible for more than one country. We were talking about why the player ended up playing for the country they played for. The answer was short and simple - "they asked first". Being proactive absolutely matters in these situations.
Are there any U21 fixtures in the March international window?
I think there’s a middle ground too — where even if a call up doesn’t happen, you reach out for a conversation. “We’re watching you. We see you with the seniors eventually.”
Perhaps give that bit of guidance on how you feel that player can get to the next level. I don’t like the idea of panic/desperation capping but there has to be some pragmatism mixed in, especially in areas where we lack quality/depth.
Well there is and there isn't. If he wants to go with a 23-man squad then there isn't, because it's filled. Yes, he could add a couple of promising players to make it a 25-man squad - but it seems he doesn't want to. And if he did, are there others who might be in ahead of Vata? After all, as samhayden says, he's only played 450 minutes of senior football in his career to date, and in a position where we're not too badly off too. Why not Finn, who just came on in midfield, against Real Madrid in La Liga and nearly scored, or McNulty in Holland who could maybe be an option at left-back? (I think it's too soon for both, but then I think Vata's the same)Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
In any event, the next squad isn't announced for another three months, so he could be a regular making a big impact by then or he could have only made another handful of sub appearances. I think irishfan has it right - keep close tabs and see how things go over the next couple of months.
23 man squads are stupid. there's a needless crunch. in the last camp, we ended up not calling up Matt Doherty at all, then calling him up as a late replacement and starting him against Finland. I think we ended up having to call-up four players late to make up numbers: Doherty, Manning, O'Brien and Coventry.
The squad we called up last time initially had 2 full-backs and 5 centre-halves. In what world does that make any sense? HH decides he doesn't want to leave out any of Ferguson, Szmodics, Idah, Cannon or Parrott, which is fair enough - so he's got to find other squad players to leave out and we end up short at full-back and in centre-midfield.
I've heard managers talk about it in the past, if one player has a knock and can't train, you can no longer do 11v11 in training etc. etc. And you end up ****ing people off, who you're gonna depend on. And I think when we're in the shape we're in, larger squads give an opportunity for players to adapt and for managers to really see those players in person etc.
Ryan Porteous: “I think I might have played against him in his debut actually,” said the defender, who was spot on: he was in the Hibs team beaten 4-0 by Celtic on December 28, 2022, when Vata came off the bench for his first senior appearance with six minutes left.
“I spoke to a lot of people in Scotland before he came here and I was aware he was a top player.
“He’s still very young and not played a lot of first-team games, but he’s one of those players who will get fans off their seats.
“Give him the ball and he comes alive.
“It’s refreshing to see someone that’s like that, and he’s probably the winger that Scotland could probably do with.
“I’m not sure if he has completely chosen Ireland yet – I’ve not had that conversation with him but I’m going to!
“If he keeps playing as the way he is now for the next couple of years then I reckon there’s a left winger space in the Scotland team if he wants it!”
https://www.watfordobserver.co.uk/sp...egaining-form/
People mocked Martin O'Neill for calling up 30 or so in his squads and trimming it closer to the game. I thought it was a great approach. What's the point of having 4 guys on standby if it's common enough for 6 or 7 to drop out?Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
There's probably a middle ground there somewhere in fairness!
Way to make me look like like a pompous fool, Rocco! Comes on in the second half and scores an injury-time winner against Portsmouth, his second in four games: https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/live/c1lnql8lngntQuote:
Originally Posted by samhaydenjr
If he keeps this up over the next 6-8 games, then... maybe. A place on the bench, perhaps?
When you compare him to the group of players he came through with in Ireland underage teams - Zefi, Curtis, Ferizaj etc.,.he has moved well ahead of any of those at this point in time. He's easily our standout teenager in senior football at the moment. Of course you cap him if he's happy to fully commit.
At it again with another assist today.
I'd absolutely agree. He has been excellent for us has been involved since he was 14 has never messed us about played at all levels up along . I would 100% bring him.in to the march squadQuote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
Yep. It's a no brainer. There have been lads that have got a cap for less. Sinclair Armstrong springs to mind. Festy Ebosele and Tom Cannon had a bit more senior football. Andy Moran is another obvious comparison to go along with Armstrong. And even if Armstrong and Moran were called up because of their underage careers, that is more of a reason to call Vata up after 5 excellent years at most levels.Quote:
Originally Posted by liamoo11
Cap tying shouldn't be the primary motivation here. Rewarding a young lad for excellent club performances at a decent level would be first, followed by rewarding a young lad for excellent underage international performances.
The question we need to ask for the March games should not be simply: Is he good enough to be called up? That's starting to look like a straightforward yes.
It needs to beat more detailed: Is he ready to earn his first caps in a pair of quite important competitive internationals, at the expense of one of our other wide players: Ogbene, Ebosele, Johnston, McAteer, O'Dowda? That might be a bit more complicated.
If we’re picking four from the six you’ve just mentioned, I’m picking Vata. Ogbene won’t be match fit/fully healthy by then. Johnston and McAteer probably ahead on merit, but O’Dowda is theoretically in his prime and is a borderline squad guy for us during a weak generation. In that context you look to the future with a guy like Vata every time.Quote:
Originally Posted by samhaydenjr
Vata should at the least be in the squad and one of the first subs on the pitch - he has an ability to turn a game.
Starts against Fulham tonight. It’s the game I’ll be watching tonight. Will be nice to see how he fares.
Just on that game, Ashley Young is on the bench for Everton and his son Tyler is on the bench for Peterborough!
I reckon if Everton manage to get a good lead then there is high% chance that both of them will be brought on.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
Just scored a wonder goal. Cap him!
Sensational
And he’s been very tidy overall with limited possession.
Given that we don't have midfielders that create a whole lot of chances we could kind of do with someone further forward who has that in their locker. Decision time fast approaching for Rocco I think.
He certainly identified very quickly that there was open space in front of him !Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
Very nice.
I think we'd be absolutely bonkers not to call him up in March, holding his own in the game tonight and brings solid dead ball delivery with him as well. It's time to learn from the mistakes of the past.