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I assume he meant Moussa rather than Karamoko, who falls into the Frimpong, Wanyama, Van Dijk category of guys who signed at 20/21 and were immediately ready for first team football. That's what Celtic do best. Guys coming from decent leagues who can go straight into the first team, it's a decent environment for a player to develop. Idah was 22 when he arrived but basically fits into the same category of footballer.Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
Exactly. Celtic works well as a shop window for already developed players given it's geographical proximity to the big money in England and the easy access they are afforded to group stage European football. It's a geographical quirk, basically. But their youth development record is pitiful.
Yeah, he listed first team signings in a discussion about youth development and fell back onto McGregor, who broke through a generation ago at this stage. Their ages might be similar in some instances but the comparison rightly ends there. Chalk & cheese.Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
But this is also the guy who said someone high up in the FAI told him the contract was ready for Sagnol and it was good as done, around the same time HH was getting on a Ryanair out of Reykjavik a couple of weeks back.
It's not that simplistic, at any club, especially one in a title race every single season where coming second is coming last. The manager may not be expected to bring youth through and therefore won't, no matter how good you might be if you got a chance. It looks a lot like that is the situation at Celtic, they have so few and give hardly any opportunities. You might be excellent but not fit his set up. He might look at you and think you aren't good enough and be wrong, and the game is littered with these errors of judgment, one of my favourites is Leeds releasing Dennis Irwin as not good enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by seanfhear
More recently, Aston Villa dropped eighteen million this week, on a player they let leave this time last year. Was he worth a chance that he didn't get ?
Yes, it looks like he was, because what they already had just cost about twenty million to get back.
The Man City trio, Grealish, Foden, and Palmer. One had to leave to get games, not only was he good enough, he made their finals squad ahead of one and outshone the other at the finals on bits & scraps of minutes off the bench.
There is more to getting the chance than being good enough to take it if it does come your way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MylesNotMiley
Having to pick a player who only really broke through in 2014 just proves my point, thanks for that.
PS he's in the same category as Josh Cullen, he's not that good either.
The issue your totally missing is, that the reason they're not pulling up trees is the fact they wasted years at Celtic. It's so detrimental to spend 2 years formative years playing no football. Celtic reserves playing in the lowlands league, which is probably the equivalent to like the second division in LSL.Quote:
Originally Posted by MylesNotMiley
1) Luca Connell - age 17 season, breaks into a team playing regualry in the championship, wins multiple MOTM awards. Called up to the irish senior team.
Age 18 season, signs for Celtic. Makes 0 appearances.
Age 19 season, makes 0 appearances for Celtic. In March of the year, he's loaned to a 4th tier Scottish side - gets them promoted, at this point loses his place in the ireland 21s
Age 20 season, loaned to the same team now in the 3rd tier of Scottish football. Wins promotion with them again and is released by Celtic
Age 21 season, signs for Barnsley and is in the PFA team of the year
Age 22 season, Barnsley reject interest from the championship sides to keep him - misses from the start of the season to November with incredibly serious post viral fatigue but by the end of the season, he's back playing very well
But if he'd signed for one of the championship clubs who wanted him instead of Celtic, he'd be far far better off...
Afolabi signed for Celtic off the back of an incredible U19 Euros where he was named in the team of the tournament. That team included what are now 4 Spain internationals (Ferran Torres, Eric Garcia, Juan Miranda, Antonio Blanco), 3 lads at champions league clubs (Veira at Arsenal, Tenas at PSG and Solet at RB Salzburg). The remaining four lads are two lads playing in the Portuguese league and one lad who's played 170 games for Lyon. Then you've got Afolabi. He rejected clubs in the premier league, the championship, league 1, russia, netherlands and germany to sign for Celtic. I spoke to one of his best friends at the time before he had moved and he said they were trying to find the balance between him signing for a club where he would definitely play (knowing if he signed for Palace or West Ham, he'd be with the reserves) vs going too low down the leagues, i.e. getting stuck in League 1 and not getting back up as high as he thought/hoped he could. Celtic promised him that he'd be straight in the first team and he'd have opportunities and games. It never materialised. He signed in August and within 2 weeks Neil Lennon said he was on the cusp of the the team. In September again, he said that he had really impressed him. In October, he said he was blown away by his performances in training and for the reserves. In January, he was loaned to the scottish championship before Covid hit. Was sent on a series of other loans to scottish backwaters before being released. He came back to Ireland absolutely shatter of confidence and after a rough 6 months, in his first full season, was top scorer in LOI before moving to Belgium for an undisclosed fee (approx €500k? initial bid of 200k was rejected). once again, if he had decent development between 19 and 21 instead of regression and stagnation, he'd be a much much better player now. Circa 2019, he was the 5th in a group of promising strikers (Parrott, Idah, Obafemi, Connolly and Afolabi - and yet he's the only one without an international appearance).
You can do the same with Okoflex who was so so highly regarded by Arsenal but Brendan Rodgers told him he'd do for him what he did for Raheem Sterling at 17. And you can look at Lee O'Connor, who was signed on the same day as Frimpong (playing the same position). He was already an Irish international, came second to Mason Greenwood for United's young player of the year and then absolutely stagnated. Duff has spoken about it where Lee was promised loads and then a few hours later they signed Frimpong and everything that was promised to Lee was given to the far more physically developed and better Frimpong. Both had the ability to become first teamers, but once Frimpong signed O'Connor had no chance.
Rovers fans have spoken about Kenny returning a shell of his former self and being a far better player at Sligo than he was when he arrived back in Ireland for the 2023 season and it was only this season when he looked right again.
Hard to know what Celtic can do. The answer would be to allow reserve teams to move up the pyramid like they do in Spain. And in fairness, you'd probably get a great crowd at Celtic reserves if they were playing on Sunday in the scottish championship - but they can't get it done and the standard of the first team is so much higher at Celtic and Rangers that talented kids from the academy can't immediately step up unlike the rest of the teams in Scotland, where if promising enough at 16, 17, 18, 19 - you'll get minutes easily.
Also they invest yearly in those players from foreign leagues who are immediately ready for the first team, hoping they can flip them for triple the price in 2 years time - we've mentioned plenty, so they always have a massive squad and a tonne of players at the fringes of the first team. Currently the first team squad is at 28, excluding the likes of Lawal - and they're actively looking to add to it. Liverpool comparatively have a senior squad of 22 right now, which means there's so much more opportunity for kids to come in and make an impact.
My advice to Lawal, Quinn, Kenny, Cannon and Asogie would be to get out as soon as you can. The chances are so incredibly stacked against you...
How many man-of-the-match awards did he win in his eight starts, which saw one point and two goals scored for a team that were such an absolute shambles off the pitch they had to play a 17-year-old Lucan Connell because most of their squad had left?Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
Players with career paths like Afolabi, Okoflex and Kenny are dime a dozen. A while back I had a look at the Liverpool U21 team that toured Ireland in 2015 and only one of them went on to make it any way big (Sergi Canos, now at Valencia). Even Ben Woodburn - the Welsh wunderkid - is after signing for Salford now. Is Liverpool a club to avoid too?
There may well be a kernel of truth in your post - I think it can be hard to break through at a club under such pressure to keep winning that the safe option can be seen as the best one - but I don't think the examples quoted are the best ones to argue your point.
Alright Celtic fan.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
& Liverpool might not be the best one to argue yours.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Kelleher. TAA. Jones. Bradley.
Elliot. Danns. Doak. Phillips.
Some are exclusively their work, some joined their academy from other clubs, but all came through there.
Celtic by comparison ..... was his point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke
Trying to argue with Celtic fans about the club they support is like talking to the wall...clear example was using an u21 side from one tour.
My point was the range of players elated selected was way too narrow to use them to make a point about Celtic.Quote:
Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke
Is Celtic's academy great? Maybe, maybe not. Is it responsible for where Connell, Afolabi, Okoflex and Kenny now find themselves? I think that's a bit of a stretch. Any big club will have plenty of players in their academy not make it.
Broaden the parameters in relation to Celtic as much as you want, you won't find a functional development path. He selected the players of interest to this forum, granted. He made good points.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
The saying goes, when in Rome, they also say when on holiday eat where the locals eat. Have a look at Scotlands under 21s squad & recent call ups. They won't go near the place & there's a reason & hair splitting his argument on sample size is neither here nor there.
But do you really think a year at Celtic is all that's standing between the players he mentioned and a place in the Ireland squad? That's how the post reads to me.
Or do you think they were capable of going on a downward career all on their own?
I think its reasoned and credible to judge being sent to Highlands League at such a key development stage is not how things should be. The game is all about levels, that level has no relevance to where these players aspire to be in the following year or two. And its not working.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Lads saying they should be good enough to break through if they're talented enough, is not the full picture, its part of the equation but only part. If development, coaching, contact time with other top prospects wasn't important, why do all the big clubs have kids in their systems and on their radars from seven & eight years of age ? It isn't for the want of a hobby.
What happened to Afolabi can happen, yes. But with our Celtic lads it keeps happening.
Afolabi had numerous ineffective loans in the Scottish Championship. Looks like he was just ****e.
Lawal got a full season on loan in League One. Got relegated from it too. Seems to have been one of Fleetwood's better players, but that's not saying much. Still, something to build on. But it's a bit much to expect him to go from a relegated League One team straight into a Champions League group stage side, don't you think?
Kenny got a loan in the Scottish Championship - about LoI level really. Wasn't great there, but then there were questions raised as to why Celtic signed him in the first place. The only Celtic flop there was in the scouting; what happened after that was entirely predictable.
Connell got a decent move out of Celtic. And that's fine - we don't need the players to break through at Celtic necessarily. His Bolton games are ludicrously hyped up.
Okoflex is a knacker who was caught making inappropriate comments about an 8-year-old girl while at Celtic. Seems not the smartest in general.
And yeah, going out on loan defeats the point of going to Celtic to an extent. But that happens at other clubs too. So the chances are there (at non Highland level)
In general I'd prefer to see guys getting first team games rather than joining big clubs cos they see their names in lights. But I don't know those careers would have panned out a huge amount differently had they been at different clubs to be honest.
Grand.
& I think spending any time in Highlands League & at a club with a clear oven ready only first team operating model, while trying to ( being close to ) breakthrough in an elite level tiny margins ruthless environment, is unnecessary self harm & it looks like the best of Scottish youth are on that page too, all of them.
Its time pointlessly spent & it increases the already stacked against you odds & why do that ?
There may well be something in that for sure. Though you suggest some were "close to" a breakthough? Were Kenny or Afolabi really close to a breakthrough while floundering about in the Scottish Championship? Or are you overhyping our players a little bit again? Lawal may be close - but then you'd be fairly ****ed off if he was in the Highland League this year. Hopefully a loan a level about Fleetwood.
The contract was ready, but Sagnol turned them down on the Sunday evening - the FAI then offered a contract to Hallgrimsson and he accepted it and was announced on the Wednesday.Quote:
Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke
That's why Hallgrimsson's name was never mentioned, came totally out of the blue and caught everyone by surprise.
All very FAI.
Anyway hope you enjoyed the scroll back through my previous posts.
What I mean is, consider the thousands of kids continent wide attached to clubs, and these lads make it to being contracted to a club who can offer a life changing contract and maybe more if you do well. That's what I mean by being close, they've already made it way further than most, they've got a real chance, few get to where they got to.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
& at that point, to make a decision that sees you togging out for Highlands League. Jesus, why would you.
Ah, Miley no no. I didn't scroll back, don't be like thatQuote:
Originally Posted by MylesNotMiley
I remembered laughing at it at the time, was all.
Great story too. Fair play.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
It's a long while ago, but if memory serves me correct, it was his debut against Reading in the league, the FA Cup game they lost and one other... I know they were in absolute shambles – but he was the player who above all got credit from the latter part of their season.
The other thing with Celtic in general is, the last three seasons they've signed 11, 10 and 9 players on permanent deals - there were also loans too, which we won’t count. And most of those have probably been a success. But when you’re signing that number of players, there’s an obligation to give them minutes, give them time to integrate etc. etc. So it’s almost impossible to give kids an opportunity when you’ve say got a core squad of 18 at the club, another 10 new faces trying to integrate and establish themselves and then kids behind them. If you’re curious…
Year 1:
Hart £1m (good business to solve their goalkeeping situation for 3 years)
Juranovic £2.5m (good business, sold after 18 months for £7.5m +)
Scales £500k (good business, first team regular for peanuts)
Hatate £1.4m (great business, probably worth 10 times that)
O’Reilly £1.5m (great business, think they rejected a €15m bid from Italy for him)
Kyogo £4.5m (great business, averaging 25 goals a season for that money is great)
Abada £3.6m (sold for £10m, so financially lucrative at least, even if it was messy due to the Israeli situation)
Giakoumakis £2.5m (sold for £4.3m, decent spell, tidy profit)
-
Starfelt £4m (sold for €5m, no harm)
Ideguchi £850k (sold for £870k, no harm, low risk gamble)
-
McCarthy FREE (terrible business, 27 games in 3 years on good wages)
Year 2:
Maeda £1.6m (another bargain for a very good footballer)
Carter Vickers £6m (considered to be worth much more than that)
A Johnston £3m (good deal, worth a good bit more than they paid)
Jota £6.4m (sold for £25m after a year)
Oh £2.5m (sold for £4.5m after 18 months, spell was mixed but tidy profit)
Haksabanovic (decent first season, left on loan to Stoke after that, they made another good profit)
-
Siegrist FREE (back up keeper, rarely needed, job done)
Mooy FREE (useful pro at the end of his career)
-
Bernabei £3.75m (don’t think it has really worked out but they’ll probably recoup most of the fee)
Kobayashi FREE (low risk, hasn’t worked out)
Year 3: no point on judging these after 1 season:
Nawrocki £4.3m
Palma £3.5m
Lagerbielke £3m
Kuhn £2.8m
Holm £2.5m
Yang £2.1m
Tilio £1.5m
Kwon £1m
Iwata £830k
You can see it’s a really good business model and if you can do it consistently, which they have, it’s excellent. They take gambles on a lot of players, generally in a particular age bracket, knowing that a few will be worth a tonne more, plenty will make a tidy profit and a few will be busts. But you have to accept that that comes at the expense of developing young players. And it’s totally ok to look at your situation in Scotland and decide that it’s too hard and too risky and too expensive to develop youth players and it’s simply not worth it, when you’ve got excellent scouting and you have the ability to consistently turn a profit off a player age 20-23 who you sign for £2.5-6m.
It’s terrible for the youth players but from a Celtic perspective - I can understand it.
Once again to go back to the Liverpool comparison, in those 3 seasons where Celtic signed 30 players (excluding loans), Liverpool signed 8-10 players, depending on how you categorise young and senior players (Diaz and Konate in Y1, Nunez, Gakpo, Carvalho(?), Ramsey(?) In Y2, and Endo, Szoboszlai, Gravenberch and MacAllister in Y3. Always just a handful of senior players trying to adapt, always space for a youth team player to breakthrough.
RE the irish tour of 2015, a) that’s a long time ago and b) I’d never look at a pre-season tour’s u21 team as way to look at the kids in an academy or coming through. Almost the best kids end up on a preseason tour - I’m pretty sure an 18 year old Joe Gomez and a 20 year old Raheem Sterling and an 18 year old Harry Wilson would have been on the senior tour that summer, 18 year old Ryan Kent too - and another 8 of their best kids.
As broadly mentioned by crafty, Liverpool:
Kelleher - signed at 16, second keeper and a really good keeper at that
Jaros - signed on his 16th birthday, with Czechia at the euros, now third choice behind Kelleher
-
Trent - been at Liverpool since age 6. 300+ appearances, won everything (premier league, fa cup, league cup, champions league, world club champs), PFA team of the year x3, FIFA world 11, Uefa team of the year, PFA Young Player of the year, etc etc etc.
Bradley - signed at 16, having been part of their NI development centre since age 9
-
Quansah - signed age 5, now a first choice centre back playing 33 games last season, called up to England age 21.
Phillips - useful fringe player, signed at 18 from Bolton
Van Der Berg - signed at 17. Will either replace Matip or be sold - Liverpool asking price is £25m
-
Gomez - signed just after his 18th birthday. Over 200 games for Liverpool
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Bajcetic - signed at 16 from Spain, still a teenager, last season ruined with injuries but youngest ever player to start a champions league knockout game (vs Real Madrid) and had an excellent debut season at age 17/18, playing 19 games before getting injured in March.
McConnell - signed at 14, won a league cup medal, playing in the final age 19 last season
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Jones - signed age 9, 133 senior games already.
Elliott - signed at 16, 119 games for Liverpool at age 21
Clarke - another League cup winner, injured right now, otherwise real potential to break in just like Jones and Elliott have
-
Gordon - signed at 16, Liverpool’s second youngest ever goalscorer, was injured for 2 years but is now back
Doak - signed from Celtic at 16, another with injury issues, was called up by Scotland to the euros age 18 but withdrew with injury
Danns - signed age 8, by far the most natural goalscorer Liverpool have produced since the days of Owen and Fowler, went from the first year schol as an u18 to 21s and senior team all in a year. Played in that final.
Could also have mentioned Nallo, Morton, Koumas, Nyoni. To me, that’s a well functioning system. It’s difficult when the standards are so high at the top end of the premier league, but to consistently be able to believe in young players and to give them opportunities, so they can ultimately become first team squad members and first team regulars, it’s admirable.
But what have Liverpool won? :)
You obviously didn't follow the Idah thread!Quote:
Originally Posted by CSAD
Lots of long posts exchanged above (bravo) but as I’ve argued before, the nature of the top of the SPL is that it’s a no-mistake zone. Out of nowhere Rangers lost at Ross County and that was that. As Crafty says, second is last in Scotland so it’s much safer to buy semi-established players rather than to develop them (I think elatdscum says this too). I’m no expert, but I think rugby teams like Leinster can blood talent because of the play-off system in their league – finishing in the top 4 is the initial target, so the odd unexpexcted defeat doesn’t hurt. It can kill you in the SPL. I think the seeding of the URC playoffs with SA teams now involved changes that a bit though, but there’s much more margin for error here.
I think there’s a lot of merit in what elatedscum suggests about Afalobi, Lee O’Connor et al. I remember being really excited by Afalobi at U19s but had a nagging doubt that he was just bigger and faster, a great advantage at that level. O’Connor looked good when he was capped by Ireland.
CSAD’s off the mark accusing Pinaeappler of seeing things through the lens of a Celtic fan though. He’s sceptical of elatedscum’s (anti-Celtic) thesis but wasn’t much enthused by Idah staying at Celtic. I’m a Celtic fan and think elatescum might be right - I’m generally not keen on untested Irish players going there - whereas I think a return to Celtic would be brilliant for Idah.
With all due respect, that's nonsense. The arguments could be made with the Czech league & Austrian league and yet they have no issue with bringing through young players, the SPL is just a terrible league for youth development and Celtic are one of the worst in it. Even at the end when Celtic had the league won they still weren't blooding young players which just kills the idea that the "unique" challenges of the SPL arent the main reason for Celtic not blooding young players, they are just terrible at it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
The fact is for the likes of Afolabi and O'Connor we will never know how good they could have been if they hadn't wasted so many years at Celtic "developing" but I will say irrespective of their supposed talent level, the fact they were willing to stay there as long as they did and didnt move on when it was apparent Celtic didnt have any clear pathway to the first team just shows me they A. Didn't have their head screwed on & B. They weren't very well advised. With those two factors playing a role I suspect unless they were a huge prospect the odds of them ever making it was probably slim.
Ah no Pineapple is a Celtic fan through n through, even if he tries to deny it the level of which he'll defend Celtic no person would do unless they have emotional attachment to the team they are talking about. In regards to the likes of Idah I agree, for academy players I'd run like the plague away from Celtic but for players like Idah and Scales its not a bad place to go.
It may well be Lawal's turn this summer to sit down and have a long and hard think about his future. Celtic will likely want him to sign a new contract if he goes out on loan unless they've a clause to extend his contract.Quote:
Originally Posted by CSAD
With Vata leaving on a free and Daniel Kelly turning down a new deal with six months left on his contract they won't want a situation where Lawal returns next summer with only 12 months remaining on his deal.
I'm not a Celtic fan first off. I've said that to CSAD before but he doesn't tend to listen to things he doesn't want to hear...Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
I felt Celtic was a good move for Idah - I'd argued for a loan move somewhere for him - but the disappointment was that he was still coming off the bench for most of it. He was at least scoring more off the bench than at Norwich so there was that, but I think he needs to be starting games at this stage of his career. That's all.
I don't disagree with the idea that a youth player going to a club like Celtic - with their pressure to win - isn't necessarily a great career move. UCD develop lots of players precisely by not having a pressure to win. (I mean, slightly different level, but...)
But - that's not quite the same as arguing that Celtic are destroying these guys' careers. The Highland League isn't great (then again, Liam Scales came through the LoI First Division), but the players have gotten plenty of loan moves to higher leagues and some haven't made anything of them. I think the players have to take a large amount of blame for that, and they're hardly the first players ever to have failed to make it at senior level.
(And I think Celtic have to take blame for signing Kenny, cos I think he was never up to that level to begin with)
Thank f*ck that's over, I am very critical of his agent as he should have advised him to get out of Celtic a long time ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by joey B
Nah I disagree, you're a Celtic fan which is clear from how much you religiously defend them.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Yeah but unfortunately Stoke are a basket case of a club. Wouldn't be surprised if he's played at CB too as McNally's replacementQuote:
Originally Posted by CSAD
If this is all you have to contribute, don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by CSAD
https://www.stokecityfc.com/news/202...g-bosun-lawal/
Signs for Stoke in 4 year deal.
Good to see some movement on the transfer front for our younger players.
Hard to know how Stoke will fair but hoping Lawal can get into the team and get 30-40 games this season. If he can establish himself at this level you'd assume given his age profile that he should continue to get picked in the senior squad.
My only annoyance was this move didn't happen sooner, he's missed out on a whole pre season with Stoke and is now injured so he might actually find it tricky to break into the XI for awhile.
Lawal is back available for Stoke this weekend, but likely to be on the bench initially rather than starting.
Named as a substitute today against Cardiff
Somewhat worryingly he was brought on at centre back.
Will play for Stoke City U-21s tonight, as he builds up playing time. The stress fracture in his lower back has taken longer than expected to heal. (Stoke Sentinel, 17 Jan).
Came on in the last minute for Stoke today. Came on to replace a midfielder from what I can see. Seems like he’s picked up minutes over 4 games since his return from injury in Dec/Jan. In and out of the matchday squad across that period.