Could be a blessing in disguise. After paying them off they won't be able to afford another big name manager looking for easy money, and so they turn to Stephen Kenny...Quote:
Originally Posted by Diggs246
Could be a blessing in disguise. After paying them off they won't be able to afford another big name manager looking for easy money, and so they turn to Stephen Kenny...Quote:
Originally Posted by Diggs246
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathalsmart
Ok, so we agree on that. So O'Neill and Keane are gone in a month's time. Now let's put some building blocks in place.
My vision of a proper national team is one which is similar to Croatia, Uruguay or Denmark. Why? Because those teams have players (all eleven who take to the pitch and everyone on the bench) who can receive and distribute the ball, retain possession, and threaten their opponents with a few short intelligent passes.
In addition, I pick these three countries because they have populations which are close or quite close to our own. In the case of Croatia and Uruguay, I would say the funding for sport in those countries would be less than in Ireland (I believe that is their respective economic situations?). What is so good about their coaching structure and so bad (or different) about ours? People will point to Gaelic games and rugby reducing the pool of soccer players in Ireland, but once those kids from the Irish diaspora are factored in, then I would say we are on level terms if not better off.
The question we must ask ourselves then, is if we have a lot more going for ourselves than the aforementioned countries, why are we so far behind them in terms of ability?
Answer, it all comes back to organisation and coaching. I have long since said on this forum, that we need to import youth coaches from South America and Africa (I would add Croatia to that list) and God knows John Delaney could forgo a couple of Euros from his salary to make that happen. Why, because that is where all the top quality players in European football are coming from. There are some basics they are teaching their kids which make them far better players than ours, N. Ireland's, Scotland's, Wales's and England's (albeit with the latter seeming to make far more progress lately). I played in the LOI many moons ago, and I can tell you that I learned more in the six months after leaving Ireland, than I did in my whole life to that point. On the evidence of Ireland's performances in the Aviva on Saturday and Tuesday, not much has changed in that regard - at least with our senior players.
There are some encouraging signs on the horizon with our underage teams (and we're seeing the results to match) but would it kill the FAI to begin a development program for the country's top tier league to accommodate those kids who are showing promise. The chicken and egg situation for the LOI is that people will not come out to watch rubbish football and the league can't produce top drawer football without some sort of a fan base to sustain its better players. Neither party is wrong. The league has to create a market for itself - there were encouraging flirtations with European football over the last few years with Dundalk and Shamrock Rovers, but that star has since faded. In fairness to the Irish fans, they did get behind both of those teams when they succeeded in Europe. And that has to be the goal going forward - perennial improvement of LOI clubs on the European stage. A lot better people than I have called for the development of the domestic game in Ireland. Surely now is the time to answer those calls.
Hearing the same crap that always gets spouted about "we dont have the players". Same thing was being said when Staunton was in charge. What happened...we replaced him with Trappatoni and qualified for the Euros. Then when we were having bad results again, we dont have the players. Again we replaced the Manager and O'Neill comes in and has great early success. Qualified for Euros again before eventually his methods stop working.
Its absolutely time for a new manager again. A football manager is not a guaranteed job for life and when you stop winning games ( we have now won 1 game in last 10) its time for a change. We dont have the players... what players did Wales have last night? O'Neill is now also telling his players that they are not good enough. How would that work in any other walk of life. Imagine your boss never telling you how he wants to do your job, giving you a task that you have never done before (Christie in midfield) and then telling everyone that you are not good enough. Good managers make the most of what they have.
Teams turn up and think ....’ Sure even their own manager doesn’t think they are any good ":(
So it's that time again...
Whether they stay or go, i think the nation now views O'Neill and Keane is the past tense. They are dead men walking. Which is dead enough for the autopsy to begin.
My 2 cents are
1. The FAI isn't fit for purpose. There was talk a few years ago of Niall Quinn after Delaney's job. In a perfect world Delaney would me moved out of the way to to a nice paying job in UEFA or FIFA and Quinn could take over. It won't happen though so i don't intend to spend much more effort on this
2. We need better pathways for players. Less kids are getting across to England these days, as Premier League academies are being filled by the best young players identified by global scouting networks. There needs to be better opportunities for the best players here to receive training on a par with that in a Premier League academy. There's no reason at all why the FAI couldn't establish something equivalent in Dublin for players who don't get across. Looking the u19 squad it is sprinkled with a decent number of players at League of Ireland clubs. Surely more could be done to give those guys a foot up to a professional career.
The other side of it being more difficult for kids getting over at 15 is that there are greater opportunities for players to go over in their early 20s. Even for those who get across as teenagers, it wouldn't be untypical to go to England at 14/15, get spat back out at 18/19, spend 2 seasons playing competitive football in the League of Ireland and end up going back to England at 21/22. I would suggest that we ought to do anything we can to create opportunities for those kids who come home having failed to break through in their first crack at England. They used to have a rule in the SPL that all clubs must include at least three players under the age of 21 in their matchday squad. A version of that might work well in the League of Ireland.
If we were to take a really radical approach we could have a national academy offering central contracts to 40 odd players who qualify for the national underage squads. They could train 1 day per week with League of Ireland clubs, and play for them on match days. Which clubs an individual club would be assigned to for a season could be decided by a draft like they do in America. If nothing else it would be good TV, and the clubs would have a few less players to pay wages to.
O'Neill in the papers being very defiant and somewhat arrogant.
Dunno if he is serious or trying to negotiate a good payoff.
1. Yes, FAI not fit for purpose. Pat Fenlon was on RTE yesterday saying they're not motivated, driven. They're all on a cushy number and they know it. The thread I started on "Governance of the FAI" was designed to stimulate debate on this topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by backstothewall
2. I may be naive, but I was very impressed by Ruud Dokter's recent interview on the Greatest League in the World podcast. Either he's a highly accomplished spoofer or he is doing good things. I think it's the latter. Allowing the LOI clubs to take over from the traditional schoolboy clubs is a good thing - though U13 is probably too early. The national underage leagues are good. And so on...
3. Are centralised contracts legal/workable in the European landscape?
4. The U21s need to be taken seriously. King is a disaster. The fact (or what I understand as fact) that he doubles up as head of recruitment and as U21 coach is a clear conflict of interest.
5. The pathway issue is a problem alright. Beyond the problem that we lose talent at a critical stage of players' development, there is a deep human cost. It's simply horrific that ill-prepared kids are shipped over to England like chattels, entering whats essentially a glorified lottery. So many come back broken and disillusioned. This should actually be a matter for the Department of Foreign Affairs.
6. We need an Oireachtas inquiry into the running of the FAI and broader issues within the game such as the consequential problem of exporting teenagers to England early in their lives without support. About 5 years ago I wrote to Leo Varadkar (he was Minister for Transport, Sport & Tourism at the time - or whatever his department was called) pointing him towards a recent UK Parliamentary Inquiry into the state of English football (set up to look into issues such as there being lots of money but bankrupt grass roots, hundreds of millions going to agents each year, lack of financial regulation, mass bankruptcy of clubs, failure to pay debts to public bodies etc.). Varadkar's response was effectively that it wasn't really any of his business. He pointed me to an Oireachtas Committee chaired by John O'Mahoney TD of Mayo (I think) and he failed to reply. I pressured him on social media a bit too, but he ignored me. Justifiably so, most of you will think!
7. After Delaney was criticised for being drunk one time (might have been the rebel songs in Dublin occasion), there were brief questions asked by this Committee to John Treacy of the then Irish Sports council about JD's salary, and he shrugged off criticism saying the FAI does great work in disadvantaged areas - which was true, but not a sufficient reason not to look further into the FAI's governance.
8. In the "Governance" thread I posted that the UK equivalent of the Sports Council is very strict on good governance and monitors each NGB's governance closely. They use a "traffic light" system: red = bad, so no funding, green = good, amber = cause for concern. Our gombeens don't have the interest or the nous to do anything similar here. This is a matter of public importance. The FAI receives public funding, there are health and crime benefits associated with increased participation, and the exporting of teenagers to England is a big issue.
the fact that someone like shane ross was appointed by Varadkar as our minister for sport sums up his true attitude to sport in this country.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
ross cant even get the names of our successful sports people right when tweeting his congratulations..... says it all really.
I think it was Kenny who gave him that gig.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbyrne
ok, the FG government so.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
in any case there has been a few re-shuffles since under Varadkar and he is still there.
One I think, with the RWC bid nearing its conclusion. We can blame this one on Enda :)
We have 0.000 chance of qualifying for the Euros with MON incharge. I honestly can’t see how this team can possibly beat any team that isn’t part time with all the factors involved in our set up.
You don't need a crystal ball to see what will happen next month.
The north will beat us in the friendly and then we'll go to Denmark with 11 men behind the ball and probably still end up losing 1-0.
I would predict McClean getting a red in the friendly - but he is suspended for the Denmark game so he might not be in the squad.
Its actually good that McClean is suspended . We know what he brings . Lets look at alternatives .Quote:
Originally Posted by IsMiseSean
I never thought id want to lose 5-1 again (it was unbelievably painful the last time) but since the game matters little it would do a good job to reinforce to even the most thick headed FAI members that after 1 year of this plague nothing has changed.Quote:
Originally Posted by IsMiseSean
Heres my starting 11 for the game against the North
Bazunu
Gannon Grace Gartland Kavanagh
Sheils
Finn Watts
Shepard Hoban Duffy
Manager Bucko
It's so xxxxing obvious that Stevens is a better wing back. McLean shouldn't be an automatic starter and if he does start it should be in a 442 of sorts or wide of a centre forward in a 433.Quote:
Originally Posted by seanfhear
https://afalsefirstxi.blogspot.com/2...slaughter.html
Latest thoughts on Tuesday for anyone who cares at this stage.....
Just looking at the 4 League B group tables.
Slovakia are zero points but have only played twice, have two games left to play, GD-2
Sweden are zero points and have only played twice, have two games left to play, GD-2
Norn Iron have zero points, have played 3, but have a home game against Austria. (NI hit the post 3 times in Bosnia, very unlucky not to get something, btw), GD-4
Ireland has one point, and an away game in Denmark left to play - not to mention a poor GD of -4
I'd be inclined to think Ireland is looking very likely to be 4th or maybe 3rd best of the last-placed League B teams.
Is this important though?
I'm confusing myself with the rules and I can't find where samhayden and I discussed things.
There will be 4 Ds in the D play off.
Even if several Cs qualify outright, there'll still be enough C teams for a C play off
If a C team qualifies outright, it'll probably be at the expense of a B team. That means there may be 5 B teams fighting for 4 places so the last ranked B team won't make the B playoff
But there will in all likelihood be no teams to make up an A play off. That means it'll be made up of any remaining B and C teams? But a C league winner can't be in a path with a higher ranked team, so the unqualified C winner will have priority over a B loser?
Is this right?
Stuff it, I think it just means that the non-qualifying B teams will all have a play off spot of some kind.
Here - https://foot.ie/threads/235119-Wales...=1#post1975440Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
They had to put him someplace for the Independent vote. They thought he could do the least damage in Transport/Sport. I have a friend who works in the CS in Transport. He's as bad there as in sport.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbyrne
Is MON's Cyrus Christie Trap's Paul Green ? Managers sometimes get fixated on players who most others believe (rightly or wrongly) are not fit for purpose.
MON is with us for better or for worse until his contract runs out so everyone can vent as much as they like. There is no money to sack him. I do worry though that if and when he goes, his side-kick will get the job.
The performance against Wales was certainly a step-up from Denmark, albeit against weaker opposition. The changes in formation near the end were a tad bizarre and the long ball to forwards who could audition for a role in the 7 Dwarfs struck me as strange. However, MON is an experienced and relatively successful manager and one would hope therefore that there was method in his madness so we can put hope that things will only get better, although a manager in decline is seldom redeemed.
The fact that he talks down our players wouldn't worry me unless he refers to individuals as human nature is such that each of the players will think he's talking about the others :)
The main question is will be stay with 3 at the back when each of them looks like a frightened rabbit in a headlight when the ball is at their feet, which is not unreasonable when no one is showing for it. Our "wing backs" only really started getting forward when we were 0-1 and then we almost got picked off 2 or 3 times.
I was disappointed to see Judge being sent home. True he's not starting much these days but that's because Brentford are playing really well but what I have seen him over the years, he is a class act. Was about to go to Newcastle before he broke his leg.
Enough ramblings. Time to go home for more punishment (Owls vs Smoggies AND IT'S LIVE ON SKY !!).
Be honest, EG. How long have you been waiting to use that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Eminence Grise
Hey there Stutts - basically, if 16 or more League A and B teams qualify the traditional way, we would be guaranteed a play-off spot (8 play-off spots left between League A and B for 8 teams). If 15 or 14 make it, then yes, we would need to be ranked ahead one or two other League B teams, which is why that drab point against Denmark could yet prove to be important and why there is still something to play for in Copenhagen. A point or two could also protect us from being dragged up to the League A play-offs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Now there is actually a scenario where it might be better to be ranked last in League B - if all 12 League A teams qualified normally along with 7 League B teams and 1 League C, the other four League B teams would make up the League B play-offs and we would get moved into the League A play-offs along with the League C teams ranked 6-8, currently Scotland, Greece and Montenegro.
If I understand your scenario correctly then I disagree with it, afaiu the play off format, it is not better to be ranked last in League B.Quote:
Originally Posted by samhaydenjr
In that scenario you paint,
the play off for league C involves the 4 top unqualified teams
There are 5 unqualified teams left in league B, in that case the top ranked league B team would then go into a play-off group with 3 of the next best league c teams, those teams placed 5th, 6th and 7th. And the 4 remaining league b teams would then battle it out in the league A play offs by default.
Have a look at the youtube video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slqy1rjQJaY
I can't view the video unfortunately. Surely the league C play offs are going to be made up of the 4 best unqualified C teams?
"Four play-off slots are allocated to each league from UEFA Nations League D to UEFA Nations League A, i.e. in reverse alphabetical order.
If a UEFA Nations League group winner has directly qualified for the final tournament, the next best-ranked team in the relevant league ranking (see Regulations of the UEFA Nations League) which has not directly qualified will enter the play-offs."
And if even one (which is almost certain) of these C teams is a group winner, then by virtue of the stipulation that a group winner can't be in a play off path with a team from a higher league, Geysir's scenario can't be right.
So: if 3 teams from A haven't qualified and 5 teams from B haven't qualified, any B team that has won its group can't be bumped up into the A play off.
By end-November this year each B team will have its relative ranking determined. We'll know in over a year's time which Bs haven't qualified. If there are 5 let's call them B1, B2, B3, B4 and B5 in descending order of their ranking.
If any of these B teams is a group winner then it must be in the B play off path. It's possible but unlikely that 4 of the unqualified Bs will be group winners, meaning B5 (us maybe) will be bumped up into the A play off.
However, let's say only B1 has won its group. Which team gets bumped up?
I think it's then B2!
Because "If fewer than four teams from one league enter the play-offs, the remaining slots are allocated on the basis of the overall UEFA Nations League rankings (see Regulations of the UEFA Nations League) to the best-ranked of the teams that have not already qualified for the final tournament, subject to the restriction that group winners cannot be in a play-off path with higher-ranked teams."
So in this case it's better to be ranked B5 than B2. If B1-B4 are group winners it's bad to be B5. But if only, say, B1-B3 are group winners then it's better to be B5 than B4.
And we can only not be guaranteed a play off if 8 or more A and B teams don't qualify outright (what Sam said above)
I'm not stating this as fact but that's how I'm reading it. And there is quite a strong incentive to come at least second in your C group, because you might get bumped up into the A play off. Basically I'm agreeing with Sam over Geysir :)
Just assume I am more right :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Not any B team would be bumped up, only the 5th team from B would be bumped up to face the A teamsQuote:
So: if 3 teams from A haven't qualified and 5 teams from B haven't qualified, any B team that has won its group can't be bumped up into the A play off.
Otherwise you'd have a scenario where the team that finished at the top of those 5 B teams would be punished for finishing first and the 5th team would be rewarded.
It's not that complicated now that I have had a year to get acquainted with the format.
Have a look at the video when you can.
Worth noting btw that relegation from League B means being third seeds for the Euro qualifying draw. Top two qualify; no play-offs any more (Apologies if mentioned already)
I’ve seen it now Geysir. Yeah the video moves the last B team up, as would make sense - otherwise you’re punishing a team for doing better (or less badly) than another.
But that contradicts the wording in the Regulations as far as I can see. The wording says the incomplete league play off slot is given to the highest ranked unqualified team, as long as it’s not a group winner.
Don't forget Glenn ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fly
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Less than 24 hours I'd say.
I gave up trying to understand the format when it first came out. Now reading back the same text you probably read, it reads a bit different now. But you'd have to watch the video as well to fill in the information gap and have a clarity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
"If a UEFA Nations League group winner has already qualified via the European Qualifiers, then their spot will go to the next best-ranked team in their league. If a league does not have four teams to compete, the remaining slots are allocated to teams from another league, according to the overall UEFA Nations League rankings."
No play offs in the euro qualifiers, not even a penalty shootout, but even if we finish 4th or 5th in the Euro qual group we would still likely be contenders for the league B playoffs.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I think you're taking that quote from here https://www.uefa.com/uefanationsleag...3.html?iv=true which is accurate but insufficiently precise to iron out any ambiguity. It simply says that rankings will determine how the groups are made up if you have an incomplete play off path. But it doesn't say exactly how. The video tries to illustrate how.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
However, if you move away from that UEFA web page describing the Nation's League and even the large PDF file https://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles...7_DOWNLOAD.pdf outlining all the regulations of the Nation's League (which only goes as far as describing what happens up to the last match in the Nation's League) the picture becomes clearer.
The passage I quoted above hasn't been changed. It comes from a different place https://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles...5_DOWNLOAD.pdf
This is the EURO 2020 competition regulations which in "legalese" describes the qualification process in full and this includes the play off path formation and what happens in the event of an incomplete play off path from a particular group. Article 16 is the key passage.
Essentially you fill the play off paths from D up. The 4 best unqualified D teams make up the D play offs, and in a specific order.
Same thing with C, B and A. Except in all likelihood the D and C paths will be straightforward but almost certainly there won't be a full A play off and that's where the passage I quoted becomes relevant. The key thing is that a group winner can't get bumped up, but the next key thing is that according to the wording but perhaps contradicting the video, the next best team that isn't a group winner gets bumped up.
So I guess where we differ is that I have referred to an additional document which to me seems to iron out any ambiguity.
If you look at the video from the point below, it shows the play-off paths being created from D to A - the League B Play-off path is filled by League B teams, as there are enough teams available, with the higher ranking teams participating - the lowest ranked League B team then gets dragged up to play against the three remaining League A teams:Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
https://youtu.be/slqy1rjQJaY?t=37
And this is confirmed here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_E...ying#Play-offs
So as long as there are enough teams left over in a League, the pathway for that League is filled with teams from within that League, based on rank. It's only if there aren't enough teams left in that League that the best ranked leftover team from the league below is pulled up. And remember, because of the key fact that play-off paths are assembled from D to A, the four best-ranked leftover teams from the lower League will have already been assigned to that League's path, so it would be the fifth ranked leftover team from the lower League that would be pulled up to the upper League's playoff pathway. This way higher ranked leftover teams don't get pulled up to higher League paths, while lower-ranked teams are allowed to play off against teams within their own path.Quote:
Each league will have its own play-off path if at least four teams are available. The Nations League group winners will automatically qualify for the play-off path of their league. If a group winner has already qualified through the conventional qualifying group stage, they will be replaced by the next best-ranked team in the same league. However, if there are not enough teams in the same league, then the spot will go to the next best team in the overall ranking. However, group winners cannot face teams from a higher league
But a logical extension of this system and principal could lead to the scenario I describe - League A teams are all gone so its pathway must be made up from Lower Leagues; because the League B pathway would have already been assembled from the best-ranked leftover four teams, that would only leave the worst-ranked leftover League B team to be pulled up. Furthermore, as the teams ranked 1-5 from League C would have either qualified already (I've assumed that the League C qualifier is ranked in the top 5) or been assigned to the League C playoff path, then the teams ranked 6-8 would be moved up to the League A play-off with that worst-ranked League B team, to the advantage of that team. this scenario is unlikely, but far from impossible, given that League A contains the teams ranked 1-12 in Europe.
Here's another scenario - what happens if 13 or more teams from League D qualify?
why refer to Wikipedia when the definitive document is the Euro 2020 Regulations?Quote:
Originally Posted by samhaydenjr
But yes, the formulation of the B group would only leave the lowest remaining B (or even C) teams left to be bumped up into the A play off. In my opinion, the correct wording should be that the place is awarded to the highest ranked remaining team not yet alllocated a play-off position.
Sammy and Stutts have it right. The video is vague like previous videos I posted. The stipulations of the regulations from the pdf Stutts provided which is the same as earlier posts on the other thread have all the details.
If 13 or more teams from D qualify the computer will explode. I don't think the regulations cater for that scenario especially if one of the unqualified D teams is a group winner.
But there's a bit in the Euro 2020 regulations 16.03 (c) Additional conditions may be applied, subject to approval by the UEFA Executive Committee, including seeding principles and the possibility of final tournament host associations having to be drawn into different paths.
sammy is more right than me!Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
It's clear that the principle should be that doing better (or less badly) than another team shouldn't put you at a disadvantage. It could have been worded a bit better but as Sammy says, if you fill up the League B path as prescribed, then the next candidate to be bumped up to the A play off is the next B team if there is one.
Because:Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
a) I don't have a PhD in Law
B) I was busy with a more fun activity - sticking a fork in my eye and
c) it was one of the Wikipedia pages that they said explicitly that you build the playoff paths starting with League D, and at that point I understood how it worked
sorry - it came across as narky, it wasn't intended to be!