Ireland v England 1995

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Originally Posted by WeAreRovers

Yeah, I've never understood people getting upset about threads moving "Off Topic"

Imagine being in the pub talking about, for instance, Ireland v England in 95 and the conversation veered towards, say, immigration into France.

Imagine the reaction if some gobdaw refused to follow the natural flow of the conversation because it was "Off Topic" Makes no sense to me....

KOH

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In my opinion, if somebody doesn't like the the thread moving OFF topic then, they can F*ck OFF! :p

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Originally Posted by davros

Aye,but it's not the punters......certain people in 'higher'authority on here.Which is a shame.....I've tried to point out the flaws of this.....never been much support till now?

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Well count me in if you're going to launch a campaign against the "Off Topic" Nazis. :D

KOH

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Originally Posted by lopez

In my opinion, if somebody doesn't like the the thread moving OFF topic then, they can F*ck OFF! :p

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Tuff Paddy, you've been stood down. Starting thinking about a valuable contribution to a debate upon the social effects of French immigration.

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Originally Posted by Tuff Paddy

Davros, that wasn't intended as a "sick" joke . . the joke is on people who rant on about something that's not relevant, I was taking the pi$$.
Relevance is important. If I wanted to discuss the shortage of space hoppers in Portuguese primary schools I wouldn't do it on here.

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Oh take it out on the Frech bloke that started on about certain members of his team not being able to speak French, then! When people come out with garbage like that why should the rest of us stand by and not comment on it? :cool:

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Originally Posted by Tuff Paddy

Davros, that wasn't intended as a "sick" joke . . the joke is on people who rant on about something that's not relevant, I was taking the pi$$.
Relevance is important. If I wanted to discuss the shortage of space hoppers in Portuguese primary schools I wouldn't do it on here.

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Tuff Paddy - dry yer eyes. :cool:

I suggested earlier in the thread that the 'mods' move it to Off Topic, but for whetever reason they haven't done so (at least not yet anyway).

If you don't want to engage in intelligent debate on this issue, the simple answer is not to do so. Go visit the 'haircare products' posts or one of the other ones elsewhere on the site....

And besides - space hoppers are frowned on these days by a lot of schools, on Health & Safety grounds.... :o)

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Originally Posted by davros

Round(unfeasibly so),Orange & big in the '70's with ridiculous handles....... ;)

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Pot and kettle here me thinks.
They were available in green too. :D

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Originally Posted by Peadar

Pot and kettle here me thinks.
They were available in green too. :D

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I remember the white ones as well!!



on no...............



I've just thought of an idea of how the 1,500 or so Irish fans can make their way to the stadium in Teal aviv........................

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Originally Posted by Junior

I've just thought of an idea of how the 1,500 or so Irish fans can make their way to the stadium in Teal aviv........................

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Count me in. :D

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Originally Posted by Tuff Paddy

It begs the question, do the children in French primary schools not have full and proper access to space hoppers?
If anyone so much as dares tell me this is 'off topic' . . . . . :D

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I must intervene here, I just don't think you're taking the space hopper issue seriously. Surely the free availability of space hoppers to young Portuguese while les francais jeunes continue to suffer isn't a joke? I'll take my opinions elsewhere, gentlemen.

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Originally Posted by Tuff Paddy

My space hopper will never touch Israeli soil. :cool:

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You can do an inverted hop so then.
Let the hopper mount you, while you bounce up and down. :D

yere all mad I tell you mad... :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Donal81

Because these countries were ONCE exploited? Come on...what economics book are you reading?

I never said immigration is a wonderful thing - I'm sure many of these people would prefer to stay in their own countries if they could make a decent living there and lead a half-decent life, which you don't seem to take into account.

'Staggered debt relief' - how long will this take to reverse these countries' economies? How do you explain that to the teenaged man or woman who is staring down a life of no money or prospects? Are you going to tell him not to worry because staggered debt relief is on the way?

What of miserable despots such as Mobutu who France helped to prop up while he made millions off Congolese people? The Congo is now one of the worst regions in the world, corrupt, vicious and violent. You seem to present European countries as helpless victims...

I don't think the idea of someone leaving their home for the cities of countries hundreds of miles away is a romantic thing but I couldn't in a clean conscience tell people not to emigrate for a better life, certainly not when I think of the circumstances some of these people are coming from and especially not when I can trace family to Queens, Boston, Hartford, Chicago, Liverpool, Birmingham and Melbourne.

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There are, however, limits. How many are too many? What if 10 million came to Ireland? It is impossible to take eveyrone. Also, it merely perpetuates the cycle of poverty as we import a generation of helots while their country loses their workforce. Nobody benefits.

Also, staggered debt relief works because it stops the despots from using or stealing the money.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Very interesting article in the London Evening Standard today.

For those who don't know, the Standard is the sister paper of the Daily Mail, openly supported Hitler in the 1930's, and is the paper that Ken Livingstone has had his recent row with/about. It's very right-wing and generally anti-immigration.

The article offers the business perspective on the Immigration debate, and has some very interesting quotes :

"Economists and business groups are now wading into the debate, warning that plans to limit visas for low-skilled migrant workers could propel wage inflation to catastrophic levels".

"Philip Shaw, Chief Economist at Investec, said the restrictions could damage the economy, already straining under a tight labour market and skills shortages".

"The ever-tightening labour market is exerting a strangehold on employers, forcing them to pay more to recruit the staff they want".

A spokeman for the Engineering Employer's Federation : "Most manufacturing companies are global and their workforces are global. The minute we start making life more difficult to recruit staff, many overseas companies are going to question whether they want to locate in the UK".

A spokesman for the Enginering and Technology Board : "Without foreign labour, the construction industry would grind to a halt".

Anthony Thompson, head of employment policy at the CBI (Confederation of British Industry) "There is no doubt that immigration, if managed properly, delivers economic and social benefits. Skills shortages mean migrant labour plays a critical role in filling the gaps. A certain number of unskilled workers need to be allowed into Britain too".

Dan Bridgett, London Chamber of Commerce : "Many firms in London wouldn't be able to staff their businesses if it wasn't for migrant labour. Anything that turns the tap off would clearly have an impact on the level of pay in the capital".

"Nick Warner, group Gnereal Manager of London-based Good People Recruitemnt, stirred up a storm of controversy last week after saying he recruits mainly Poles and Portugues, because English people on benefits have "given up the work ethic".

"It's not just wage inflation that would be affacted by tougher immigration controls. There are implications for a host of issues, from housing and transport to health and education".

"The government may even have to rethink its pensions policy, with a recent report from Cass Business School claiming that up to 10 million immigrants will be needed by 2025 to ensure pensioners can continue to get £80 a week from the basic State Pension".

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So you import a class of helots and have the opposite affect, wage deflation? As I noted earlier, if wages decline then immigrants will never make enough to cover pensions. Moreover, what if they decide that they don't want to continue to pay for these sorts of benefits? Also, what about the indirect costs associated with immigrants including health care, education and urban sprawl?

Are you surprised that the business lobby wants cheap, non-unionize labour? They are doing it for the benefit of society now? Funnily enough, it's actually biting them in the arse. In Florida, It is now cheaper to import oranges from the Far East then it is to grow and process them in Florida. Why? Well the Japanese invented a machine that can shake an entire row of trees in a grove. The family-cartels in Florida have survived on paying migrant workers next to nothing to pick their oranges. They have always resisted attempts at limited the number of migrant workers as they want a cheap source of labour. They are also strigently anti-union. Now they have been circumvented by technology. A great number of unskilled labourers are soon going to be out of a job with no benefits, no savings and no pension plan. The long-term cost is extraordinary. Via cheap labour!

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Originally Posted by Tuff Paddy

This thread is getting too high brow for me, I'm only a football fan.

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I'm sure my space-hopper had a Kangaroo's head. :o

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Originally Posted by Tuff Paddy

It begs the question, do the children in French primary schools not have full and proper access to space hoppers?
If anyone so much as dares tell me this is 'off topic' . . . . . :D

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Sadly, the advent of electronic entertainment devices for kids as seen space hoppers reduced to little more than a minority pursuit.

Could be an opportunity to secure EU-funding for a 'space hopper' school though - no seats, just large individual divits alongside desk to cradle the bottom of your space hopper.

Space Hopper users have been discriminated against for too long now.....

Space Hoppers for Justice....!

Of course I went to an inner city school so we couldn't afford space hoppers, they had all been bought up by the posh schools, so the kids at our school just had to do with grabbing the fattest kid by the ears and bouncing around on them. :eek:

In fact that became official space hopper inner city school policy in Thatcherite Britain.

to Lopez

i'll try to make it with the english words i know :o

i don't like Chirac, Le Pen, liars, violence,Adidas,Zidane,milk,hate,...

i like football,craig(?),music,beer,peace,...

As i think you can read french, here's a good article in Le Monde 2001.This is exactly why i don't support the french team.

http://www.ac-versailles.fr/PEDAGOGI...t_perelman.htm

now i'll read and not post.

Cheers.

Laurent

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Originally Posted by Éanna

I think that was probably me. And I was referring to the game where we had several stones and a glass bottle thrown at us. Thats why it was intimidating.

As for the issue of who causes the trouble- I fully accept (as i did at the time) that it was City fans who caused the hassle at the cross last year, not rovers fans. The fact is though, that this element only seems to appear for Rovers games, because of Rovers reputation. As I also said, thats not Rovers fault, there's not much you can do about it, but it is a fact.

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that was little nackers from inchicore who live in the area throwing stones. they werent even Rovers fans,they mite be pats fans but jsut little toerags whatever team they follow . most clubs who go to inchicore have stories about the little ******es from the area throwing stuff. its even happened to Rovers ourselves.
there were certainly no stones and bottles thrown from the Rovers crowd at that game. i was in the shed for it.

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Originally Posted by Fergie's Son

There are, however, limits. How many are too many? What if 10 million came to Ireland? It is impossible to take eveyrone. Also, it merely perpetuates the cycle of poverty as we import a generation of helots while their country loses their workforce. Nobody benefits.

Also, staggered debt relief works because it stops the despots from using or stealing the money.

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Firstly, I note that you didn't respond to the question where you got your assertion that France would be majority Muslim by 2045.

Secondly, how is immigration hurting the Irish economy at the moment? This question that I hear so often, "how many are too many?" and the line "it is impossible to take everyone" really bug me, I must say. Since when are we taking everyone? Why does Pat Delaney of the Small Firms Association look for 50,000 immigrants to come to Ireland this year in order to keep productivity moving? Where are you getting this notion that we're being bled dry?

Thirdly, I never said that debt relief wouldn't work long-term to help these countries out (although how it will stop a despot from stealing money from the country's coffers is beyond me. Again, I have to question where you're getting this economics) what it won't do, however, is turn an impoverished nation into a progressive one overnight. Until then, these people are being shafted and why in God's name should they stay while leaders in the West debate and debate upon the merits of debt relief?

I think a sense of perspective is called for. If the roles were reversed, what would you do?

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Originally Posted by laurent

to Lopez

i'll try to make it with the english words i know :o

i don't like Chirac, Le Pen, liars, violence,Adidas,Zidane,milk,hate,...

i like football,craig(?),music,beer,peace,...

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You never explained why you thought there were certain members of the French team that didn't speak French. :confused: It's just that prior to our match in October I was talking to a waiter at a restaurant in Monte Carlo, who was also Monaco fan who said he no longer supported France because they were 'all Africans'. He then slagged off an African playing for Monaco as 'fast but stupid.' Perhaps with his experience, and another story concerning Lille fans, that you had a racial problem with the French team. If not, apologies.

I did read the article but I'm not a French speaker (cheated and got it translated by Yahoo). It did show one thing, that any multicultural team that France had is useless unless this becomes mirrored in society. Chirac's role in the World cup win was as hypocritical as it was laughable considering what he previously thought of immigrants and their children when mayor of Paris. As for the Algerians, well France - and Paris - has a bit of a history with them. I believe that during the height of the Algerian war of independence in October 1961, Algerians demonstrated in Paris. The chief of Police, Maurice Papon, who was eventually indicted for war crimes, responded by ordering the inner city shut and the Police to go on the rampage resulting in up to 200 dead. People like myself who grew up in Britain during the disgraceful wrongful convictions of Irish people for IRA bombings are still bitter. It's hardly surprising then that Algerians are also p*ssed off over a far worse crime.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/internatio...5359%2C00.html

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Originally Posted by anto eile

that was little nackers from inchicore who live in the area throwing stones. they werent even Rovers fans,they mite be pats fans but jsut little toerags whatever team they follow . most clubs who go to inchicore have stories about the little ******es from the area throwing stuff. its even happened to Rovers ourselves.
there were certainly no stones and bottles thrown from the Rovers crowd at that game. i was in the shed for it.

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Yeah, that was what happened. But the fact is that it was very intimidating at the time. There were also two rovers fans who came into our section at half time looking for hassle. I've been in Inchicore many times, and that was the worst I've ever seen.

Dunno if anyone saw the African Nations Cup around this time last year (was on Eurosport / BBC 3 or BBC 4), but I seem to remember Algerian fans running riot in Tunisia during some of their matches.

link one
link two

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Fergie's Son - I'd be grateful if you could provide sources and justification for your oft-stated point about France becoming majority Muslim by 2045.

I'm keen to get a better understanding as to how a population of 5m people will propel themselves to number over 25million within a single generation.

Hard stats and qualified sources please. No text-based conjecture or personal assumptions.

Thanks.

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Fergie's Son - you've had almost 72hrs since I posted the above question. In that time, you've made 2 more postings on this debate - none of which in any way alluded to the above question.

Would be mopst grateful if you could respond, as I know a number of people on this thread are keen to get a better understanding of your claim.

I mean - I'd hate anyone to think your debating position was questionable and you were making it all up...... :eek: :o

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Fergie's Son - you've had almost 72hrs since I posted the above question. In that time, you've made 2 more postings on this debate - none of which in any way alluded to the above question.

Would be mopst grateful if you could respond, as I know a number of people on this thread are keen to get a better understanding of your claim.

I mean - I'd hate anyone to think your debating position was questionable and you were making it all up...... :eek: :o

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If it was 2145 rather than 2045 would his argument be null? From what I have read it is possible but unlikley that there could be Muslim parity by the end of this century but if I had to put money on it I would go with 2145 with a strong lilelihood that it will never happen.

Anyhow the core issue with Muslim immigration is one of culture not economics, but I am pretty optimistic that an educated French-Muslim population ( particularly the womenfolk ) will find secularism much more tempting than the intolerance of conservative Islam.

And as for the Ireland v England game in '95, I remember that in the weeks before the game all we heard about was reports of the hooligan threat. The Gardai screwed up royally, did heads roll? was anyone held accountable? Thank Allah nobody was killed.

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Originally Posted by Éanna

Yeah, that was what happened. But the fact is that it was very intimidating at the time. There were also two rovers fans who came into our section at half time looking for hassle. I've been in Inchicore many times, and that was the worst I've ever seen.

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one of the lads went in to your section, sat down with a smile on his face. taking the pis$ more or less, waving over to Rovers fans.far from looking for hassle.i only saw one Rovers fan go into your section and i was only 50 feet away

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Originally Posted by 1MickCollins

If it was 2145 rather than 2045 would his argument be null? From what I have read it is possible but unlikley that there could be Muslim parity by the end of this century but if I had to put money on it I would go with 2145 with a strong lilelihood that it will never happen.

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Well, yes ! Saying a population will exponentially grow within a single generation is very different from saying one will do so in 4 generations ! Purely from the point of view of human endeavour, a group of people growing from 5m to 25m in numbers in 40years would probably be a world record. Not so over 140yrs.

And besides - it would take a very, very brave person to project a country's demographics 140 years out from now. Feck knows what could or would happen in that time, it's such a huge distance away. For perspective - 140yrs ago (1865) Ireland was well and truely under the kosh of the British, had just gone through one of the world's biggest famines and mass emigrations, was sh*t poor, over-whelmingly rural, Irish-speaking in large parts, and soccer, Gaelic football and motor cars didn't exist. Monarchies were the government of choice across the world, France was a major world power, had just got rid of Napolean yet again, but hadn't a strong position in North Africa yet. Germany and Italy didn't even exist as countries, as were only going through the process of unifying themselves. The Turks and Hungarians ruled large swathes of Europe. America was approaching the end of a Civil War and had yet to outlaw slavery. And no-one gave a feck about China. Regardless of any advancement in statistics, any attempt then to project how countries would look nowadays - let alone how their population would be made up - would have been miles out.

So yes - it does makes his arguements null ! If only because no-one will be here in 2145 to verify it anyway ! I'll bet you all a billion Euro that Ireland will be predominantly populated by Cornish-speaking Martians in 2145. I don't need any proof - but it'll definitely happen......

Whatever happened to the bases of intelligent debate (i.e. facts combined with insightful analysis and justifiable projections) ? I'll take Fergie's Son's silence as being effectively an admission that he was talking out of his hoop. Either that or he's on his hollers researching the growth in Cornish-speaking Martians... :)

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Whatever happened to the bases of intelligent debate (i.e. facts combined with insightful analysis and justifiable projections) ? I'll take Fergie's Son's silence as being effectively an admission that he was talking out of his hoop. Either that or he's on his hollers researching the growth in Cornish-speaking Martians... :)

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Yawn, this is a football forum which may have escaped your attention, kindly move your arse to the Off Topic forum.

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Originally Posted by anto eile

one of the lads went in to your section, sat down with a smile on his face. taking the pis$ more or less, waving over to Rovers fans.far from looking for hassle.i only saw one Rovers fan go into your section and i was only 50 feet away

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we can argue the details forever. The point is, I wrote what I wrote not long after that game. And I was being honest. It was an intimidating atmosphere- the most intimidating I have experienced in this league. Maybe my fears were unfounded, I don't know, but that was how it felt at the time.

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Originally Posted by 1MickCollins

Yawn, this is a football forum which may have escaped your attention, kindly move your arse to the Off Topic forum.

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Dry yer eyes Mick. I don't believe in letting someone away with unfounded and essentially rascist views.

I asked the administrators earlier in the thread to move this debate if they wanted to, and they seem to have chosen not to.

Also - earlier in the thread someone else made the same point you did and was shouted down by everyone else.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Dry yer eyes Mick. I don't believe in letting someone away with unfounded and essentially rascist views.

I asked the administrators earlier in the thread to move this debate if they wanted to, and they seem to have chosen not to.

Also - earlier in the thread someone else made the same point you did and was shouted down by everyone else.

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My eyes are wet with tears of laughter, go find a tree to hug old chap.

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Originally Posted by 1MickCollins

My eyes are wet with tears of laughter, go find a tree to hug old chap.

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Do you mind - you're taking our Off Topic debate Off Topic....... :D

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Originally Posted by 1MickCollins

My eyes are wet with tears of laughter, go find a tree to hug old chap.

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Go find a tree to p*ss against! :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by lopez

Go find a tree to p*ss against! :rolleyes:

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I was laughing at the high-mindedness of "I don't believe in letting someone away with unfounded and essentially rascist views.", this is the usual cheap ploy of looney-leftists - accuse everyone of being a bigot or a racist. I didn't find anything racist in that thread. That is the sort of cheap shot that I don't care for.

A night from my childhood I'll never forget. Only time in my life, save for September 11, that every newspaper had the same photo on the front page - it was some bald lager lout Englishman with blood all over his face - and the headline "SHAME" on all the papers.

Has anyone seen the new Transit ?

I must disagree. It would be awfully boring if we weren't allowed digress in the slightest from football talk, wouldn't it? In fairness, it has its limitations. This site can be dull as hell for ages until a decent debate starts, sometimes about football, sometimes not. I don't know why it bothers people, to be honest, it's not as if it's a regular thing.

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Originally Posted by 1MickCollins

this is the usual cheap ploy of looney-leftists - accuse everyone of being a bigot or a racist. I didn't find anything racist in that thread

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Miaow. This is the predictable cheap ploy of some accused of or associated with racism - counter that every 'leftist' is a loony :(

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Originally Posted by Duncan Gardner

Miaow. This is the predictable cheap ploy of some accused of or associated with racism - counter that every 'leftist' is a loony :(

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Hear, hear! Or that these Pinkos are trying to supress free speach and then demanding that what we are discussing be binned and that this is an 'Irish forum for Irish people.'

1995 had to be one of the craziest years... We hold our own and take lead against English before riot, we outplay Portugal and win, then we seriously fk up for the remainder of the year including 0-0 in Liechenstein (where North won 4-0!)...

I don't think it could all be put down to the squad ageing... I recall alot of critical injuries that year to Keane, Sheridan etc...
I think we even played a 34 year old, rotund Ronnie Whelan of Southend United in centre midfield versus Liechenstein and Austria that summer....

The likes of Babb and McAteer weren't tearing up trees that season either and delivering on their hype....

Just came across this on my travels, the full RTÉ coverage on the infamous fixture at Lansdowne Road. I haven't even watched it fully myself but will do when I get a chance. They must have given Dunphy the night off as it's Giles and Joe Kinnear in studio. Some interviews with both Irish & English players afterwards also, as well as Bertie Ahern!

Edit- don't know why it keeps starting so far in!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBeDSFGzShg