A Dublin taxi driver has his say on Australian ABC News. (This is fantastic!)
https://twitter.com/Duff_Nasty/statu...34040832581632
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A Dublin taxi driver has his say on Australian ABC News. (This is fantastic!)
https://twitter.com/Duff_Nasty/statu...34040832581632
One thing I've noticed on Facebook is that almost all my friends, most of whom wouldn't be any degree political, have either simply highlighted that they have voted, or made personal comments to mark the occasion. It certainly seems to have struck a note for anyone under 40, so will be interesting to note the reactions tomorrow morning.
If we have any gays in the foot.ie village, good luck today, I hope this passes.
Should clarify the voting part. If it were any other topic I would vote No or refrain, because of the corruption that grows like cancer in the Irish government. I hope that's clear.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
As for a no vote being "inherently unreasonable", that is your opinion and nobody has a right to deny you that. All else, you can explain it to others who a) want to vote no, or b) who "need education".
Agree about resorting to spurious nonsense, both sides are guilty of this in varying degrees. I believe that it should be discussed in a proper manner with middle groudn sought, not ultimate victory. This is where we reduce ourselves to the level of well, god knows what.
Osarusan, what are the downsides for a No vote? When politicians and campaigners, from both sides, refuse to answer simple questions or go more and more shrill just to gain a moral higher ground, it destroys any good that can be gained. Equal downsides for both is that it will create further division and no matter what the result, there will be losers. The winners will not be those who should be cared for, but the scum in government who have further divided and conquered. Not a conspiracy, just a fact.
On the home to vote, shows just where we are in terms of mature nation. When there is a major reason to protest injustice and ongoing corruption and fleecing the citizens of the state, nothing. But this. Glorious!
Hope this passes so that the great and the good can tell us how wonderful we are and the next reason to "debate" is opened by the FG/Lab regime - or at least until after the Championship!
My own contribution to the #hometovote movement: https://twitter.com/tetsujin1979/sta...71114352738306
I do so love a good meme
It's a case of either/or though. One side seeks the option for recognition whilst the other side seeks to refuse the provision of such an option. Where can a middle ground be found in that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Spudulika
I think this probably articulates some of the misgivings you have: http://www.judecollins.com/2015/05/t...-a-referendum/Quote:
On the home to vote, shows just where we are in terms of mature nation. When there is a major reason to protest injustice and ongoing corruption and fleecing the citizens of the state, nothing. But this. Glorious!
I think we are talking about different 'they's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr A
The Catholic church didn't support divorce, certainly. Bishop Flynn made some shameful threats. William Binchy scaremongered endlessly.
Here's one: that same sex couples are told that a majority of the voting public decided, for whatever reasons*, that giving them the right to civil marriage and the constitutional protection it provides was not something compelling enough to vote yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spudulika
I can't even begin to imagine how painful that could be, and I can't think of any downside for a yes vote that comes remotely close to it.
*reasons: homophobia, the inability to understand that this referendum isn't about children, adoption or surrogacy, the idea that it is a legitimate response to perceived negative campaigning by the Yes side, and (the one that deserves a special place in hell) spiting the government.
Danny, interesting link, thanks! And for the middle ground, there was never a chance as it was never allowed. The whole procedure of bringing this to a vote was made in such a way that it was going to cause a sh!tstorm, plus the DOB and compliant FG meeja went to town getting people at each others throats. I really believe that Putin is learning from our headers, oh wait, actually one of the PR companies who advised/are advising FG actually advise the Kremlin. However these companies are typically international (like KPMG etc) so it's moot.Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
Osarusan, when "homophobic" is thrown into the mix, it becomes ridiculous. Especially when it is used to bully, insult and stigmatise, and very often in this case unfairly. It is the same as the "pro-choice/pro-abortion, anti-choice/pro-life". You of all people, as a purveyor of English as a 2nd language, would know the power of words, and this is huge. And saying that one side deserves a place in hell? Come on, this is the time of absolutism that destroys any chance of discussion and coming to an understanding.
Are you suggesting that I use the word carelessly? Plenty of people have been quite open about their homophobic reasons for voting no.And there are plenty of others whose homophobia is transparent to everybody but them ("I've nothing against gays, but i don't think they should be allowed to marry"), yet who will waffle on about being bullied or intimidated when they are called on their homophobia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spudulika
As a purveyor of English as a second language, I know a strawman when I see one, and I just saw one. Nowhere did I say one side deserves a place in hell, and there is no way you could have interpreted it as such.Quote:
You of all people, as a purveyor of English as a 2nd language, would know the power of words, and this is huge. And saying that one side deserves a place in hell?
I said one reason deserves a special place in hell. The reason being something along the lines of: 'I've actually no problem with gay people marrying but the government are a shower of wankers so I'm voting no.' That, in my opinion, is extraordinarily stupid.
Crazy good turnout by all indications. No proper exit poll (don't know why) but you have to say it's looking good for "Yes".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spudulika
Spud who in this world would be pro abortion. Pro choice yes but I doubt they would be pro abortion. Pro abortion what is that. A demand for every woman to able their child.
Apparently Ireland will run dry off prosciutto tomorrow around 3 PM
Now that that's over, can we get a referendum on the blasphemy laws, or how are these things decided? :o:)
No, however the word has been used and misused so often in this mess of a situation that it lost its validity a long time ago. And claiming that "plenty of others whose homophobia is transparent to everybody but them" - come on, really? That's primary school stuff. And this is intimidation and the stifling of open debate. Put it alongside the immigration debate (for example) and throw in the word nazi/racist and it goes along with the anti-debate logic that many who earn their money/fame from talking down anyone with a point opposite to theirs need.Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
Osarusan, if you bring hell into it, you bring religion, and so you will pick and choose what you want to follow/believe. Which sits snugly alongside the wisted logic of many on both sides of the debate. And please, don't try to argue a hell point, it comes from your/our religious training and needs to be eradicated. If you said furnace, or dustbin, then it is less emotive and a long stride away from the nonsense fools on both sides are spouting.
Jinxy - it is the logical extension - which is illogical. When those who know better lecture about rights, and sneer at prolifers (or people who don't hold a strong opinion or just feel uneasy about abortion) - "anti-choice", it is a deliberate attempt at a wind up, like calling Rovers - Shams or Drogheda part of Louth (we all know it isn't). It is lowering the level of discourse. The exact same and worse is going on with the FG/Lab carnival, and in Russia, USA, UK.Quote:
Originally Posted by jinxy lilywhite
If you are pro-Ukraine, you are a pro-nazi, US lapdog, hater of Russia. If you question(ed) the US-led invasion of a sovereign state you were an enemy of the people and coward. If one group wish for labels to be removed, using the same or worse against others to further their own agenda is like cutting off your fingers because you don't want to have to cute your nails each week (or once a year if you're from Cork).
Absolute rubbish of the highest order. Are you saying that there are no people out there who subconsciously hold homophobic views? People who say 'I've nothing against gays but i'm voting no because i don't think they should be raising children" but who still don't think they are homophobic. And to argue this is to intimidate and stifle debate. Total nonsense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spudulika
Spud, on this thread you've mentioned the factual arguments of the No side, you've mentioned the 'middle ground', and you've mentioned the 'downsides of a yes vote' but when anybody asks you to be specific about them, you haven't given any answer whatsoever.
Instead you come at the whole thing at some meta-level, with your ultra jaded and untra cycnical position on the whole system and discourse of politics and the 'meeja'. Why don't you give some specific answers for a change?
Are you claiming that there are? Flip sides, are there "heterophobic" people out there? We've all heard plenty of such rhetoric but wouldn't call it as it's a) supposed to be funny or b) going to leave you out on a limb. Just because people have voted No or hold beliefs opposite to ours does not mean they are wrong or homophobic. If you remember a boxing debate in Maynooth, it was not to prove that those who disapprove of boxing were wrong, just that they should accept the rights of others - and were in a real minority.Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
I am cynical, as are you from your posts, and I am jaded, as it is tiring to see such bile being spouted and packaged as public discourse. So trying to find something that will allow for people to find middle ground is difficult.
Factual arguments of both sides bear scrutiny, and some elements of changes that come into law are wider reaching effects.
And while your reading is that I've avoided questions, it's not fully true. By downsides of a yes/or no vote I will simply point to the fact that those who have used the most hateful and damaging rhetoric to date will see themselves as having "won". I hope that this is clear? If you believe this will not be the case, regardless of the result, then it is just that you hold different views and I will respect that. Hope my answers have been specific enough to meet your criteria :-)
Meta-level? Nice one, never thought of that.
Once again:
what are the factual points the No side have?
What is the middle ground you wish people would seek?
What are the downsides of a yes vote?
As I saw someone say, it's starting to look like there was more of a silent yes than a silent no. It seems many older people and those from rural backgrounds who were expected to be the silent no were terribly wronged.
Cry me a ****ing river. These people don't know the meaning of the word 'bullying.' They've raked over gay people's lives, questioned every aspect of their lives, contested their right to be treated equally as human beings, gay people who have been insulted, demonised and had the most disgusting aspersions cast upon their character not only over the past few weeks but for decades. If these people feel bullied - good. I hope it ****ing hurts, because it's absolutely nothing compared to the hurt they've caused gay and lesbian people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spudulika
This is a great day, I'm delighted and proud.
Proper results starting to flood in now. Is looking like low 60's Yes. Turnout is the same. Think only Roscommon/South Leitrim on course to reject.
Good ol' Longford was 50.41% in favor of no..
Roscommon/South Leitrim is the only place to vote majority No. Longford/Westmeath was 53% Yes.
Edit: Oh wait, you mean, like, the actual County of Longford? Doesn't really matter does it?
To think homosexuality was only decriminalised in Ireland in 1993... This is a great result for equality, rights for all and all things good in the world. A proud and historical day for Ireland; moving forward and into the future. I'm absolutely delighted. What a massive moment for inspiring people like David Norris who have spent their entire lives putting up with crap fighting for equal recognition simply so they could just ****ing be themselves and live just like any other decent citizen. Massive respect. Nice to see Donegal North-East deliver a majority 'yes' vote too. Well done, everyone! :)
Yeah, Longford itself, and it does, I'm from there, (voted in Limerick) so slightly ashamed of that little stat..Quote:
Originally Posted by NeverFeltBetter
From a representative of Allah:
http://twitchy.com/2015/05/23/muslim...d-beastiality/
See Carlow/Kilkenny voted in a FFer. One step forward two steps back:mad:
You can come here to get married if you need to Ben. It's a cottage industry in Massachusetts.
Cottaging industry.
Great to see the Westboro Baptist Church are happy with the result!
http://i100.independent.co.uk/articl...t--lylNHG3ycbW
Disappointing that not even the collective weight of the Termonbarry Alberts and Termonbarry Alberts Supporters Club was enough to prevent Roscommon voting no.
http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=if04g01Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/he...ndum-1.2100166
And many more.....
p.s. I voted yes.
That's been completely discredited AFAIK.
I didn't read them so I don't know :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr A
Issues over knock on effects in legislation, what is coming donw the line.Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
That is an open question to all - a manner of compromise where all sides are respected and there is a decent debate.
Downsides of a Yes vote are the further division in the nation and continued path down towards an ignorance of debate and development.
And simply opening a door to allow idiots (of all sides) rant.
Best of all, allowing politicians bullsh!t and getting lauded for it:
Gilmore - Ireland now needs to be a world leader. Yes, hmm, Dublin's way or Moscow's way. Dublin's way or Riyadh's way. Indeed, me orse. Until the next trade deal gets scuttled.
Leo the lizard - For the first time I feel equal. Hmm, so you are finally over the silver spoon, finally a normal person who has not disgraced the nation time and again and an embarassament who pursues the top job more than doing your own.
It is brilliant that all are allowed to marry. It is brilliant that a minority who felt discarded now feel equal. Nobody should feel rejected or outside society, yet we go further down a path of intolerance and get congratulated by the FG/Lab regime, their puppeteer (DOB et al) and let attention seeking failed election candidates make hay.
However, I'm hoping the hypocritical liar Frances Fitzgerald does what she promised and gets everything changed by August as I'd like to be the witness at a marriage than a civil partnership! Nothing against civil partnership, but it'd be nice to be part of history. Home to witness!!!
Mr. A, lots of legal heads were divided and as always with manmade (let's not blame the ladies on this one) laws will be dominoed. However it'll be just more fun and games down the line. :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr A
Main thing is that we can get onto what's important - the Championship, when will Roddy blow up and what will Rovers fans say when Dundalk qualify for the UCL group stages!!!
Quote:
what are the factual points the No side have?
Such as what? I mean, specifically, where do valid concerns over knock-on effects lie? On adoption, the adoption authority were (I thought) crystal clear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spudulika
On surrogacy, I don't see any knock-on effect other than any legislation will have to legislate without distinction regarding same or opposite sex couples. I don't believe that arguing for a distinction is a valid argument.
What else is there?
Quote:
What is the middle ground you wish people would seek?
Amending the constitution isn't something you can compromise on, is it? It either happens or it doesn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spudulika
Quote:
What are the downsides of a yes vote?
Further division in the nation? Seriously? A vote for equality is further division of the nation? That is ridiculous. "Further down a path of intolerance" - what are you talking about?Quote:
Originally Posted by Spudulika
If you want to look at ignorance of debate, perhaps you might consider why the adoption authority and the referendum comission took the unusual step of making statements on the impact of the referendum on adoption and surrogacy - because they felt the need to clarify in the face of shameless lies from the No side. There's your ignorance in debate - happily, the electorate aren't as thick as they'd banked on.
On knock on effects - regardless of what is produced you will reject them as anything else that has been presented.Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
One "legit" objection was the article to be changed, calling the bluff on the doubters by moving it from 41 to 40, would that count as compromise? In the correct term yes, it also would have shown up those who solely objected to this one point. The result would be the same (in law) but not affecting "family", which was the burning issue.
Yes, further division. While I accept for you it looks different, I can only speak for watching from distance. Although there are commentators (not the rather extreme ones) in Ireland who also would seem to see issues of this nature.
There was no debate, at least in a proper form. There were those whose beliefs led them to speak against it, over 1/3 of the country, and those who didn't care, those whose beliefs spoke for it, and bandwaggoners who will follow the trend - barstoolers if we will. One thing that was avoided by government and Yes speakers and that I'm still confused with, was teh normal process of government followed with this referendum? I mean by white papers etc? I figured that this was just a joke by some comedians (Callan I think).
I think this quote nicely addresses the No side's claims of intimidation and bullying:
“Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.” - Ralph Waldo Emerson
You are entitled to your opinion and POV of the situation, many share it, many don't. And bullying is in many forms and sadly this time out showed how the bread and games agenda of the FG/Lab regime has everyone in it's grasp. Dublin's way or Fallujas way. Gotta love our great and good.Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
And we have our new issue - FIFA! Praise be the meeja!