Printable View
Thats it really, I doubt anyone expects the fine to be overturned but hopefully reduced. If reduced for the flag element it may not make a significant difference to the amount of the fine as the fine has 3 elements to it(i think).Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Parker
This is getting embarrassing.
"Republican Network for Unity have organised a picket to show their solidarity with Dundalk F.C and to display disgust for UEFA.
Assemble at Derryhale hotel, opposite the entrance to the Football ground. Friday 29th August. 7PM. All welcome."
http://www.republicanunity.org/rnu-d...-on-uefa-fine/
These political parasites are NOT welcome any where near Oriel Park.
Bloody hell. It'll be the Judean People's Front turning up next.
Well Bohs will be in town, which means the Guards will have their dogs, horses, and the armed response unit at Oriel Park.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr A
To be honest, if the case ever was to go to CAS, the panel might even see it as an "aggravating circumstance" that the stewards were alerted to the flags' display (along with their alleged-inappropriate nature by the UEFA delegate) and, even though they clearly knew where the flags were situated and had easy access to them, as demonstrated by their initial request to the flag-wavers, they failed to confiscate them and prevent their further display. That the flags would be waved again because they were left in the hands of the known perpetrators was very much foreseeable and avoidable. UEFA might well view matters similarly if Dundalk were to lodge an appeal with them.Quote:
Originally Posted by jinxy lilywhite
UEFA are savvy and familiar with the process of how CAS operates; their disciplinary and legal affairs divisions won't often make careless mistakes and silly errors of judgment. If you were going to take them on in the court, you'd need to be pretty sure of your case. Besides, you'd have to appeal to UEFA first and they'd have to reject that appeal (on dubious grounds). The whole process would also be pretty expensive. Possibly even more costly than the fine itself?
How do you objectively quantify or measure these "links" though? If you can acknowledge that the rule is as fluffy and nebulous as your posts on the matter seemingly imply, so as to be bordering on inherently-conflicting and ultimately-meaningless, why shouldn't or can't Dundalk argue that the SSE have humanitarian "links" to Palestine? They may have supporters who identify with cultural Judaism, but do Ajax and Spurs have official links (or even informal links, for that matter) with the state of Israel? Even if all Ajax and all Spurs fans were indeed Jewish anyway (and they're not), Judaism and Zionism are not one and the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by GypsyBlackCat
Jesus, the cries of oppression... Actually, it does vanish. With rights come responsibilities. On the other side of that turnstile is what's known as private property. Freedom of speech can be restricted when it conflicts with the rights and reputations of others. If you're to remain welcome on someone else's private property, there is, at the very least, an implicit agreement that you play by their rules; you don't have any absolute right to express yourself contrary to their interests and wishes. If they want you to pipe down, they have no obligation to listen to you and can legally restrict you or throw you out. Being shunned as an unwelcome trespasser isn't a denial of freedom to express oneself. There's plenty of public space upon which expressions can be freely made. Freedom of expression is something that the state bestows upon its citizens in order to protect them from a potentially overbearing or all-powerful government.Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
I see Dundalk's statement mentioned the club's "ground regulations and code of conduct". I'm not quite sure how, and I'd imagine, if it was possible, clubs all around Europe would already have thought of it, but could there be some way a club could argue that the supporters concerned, rather than the club itself, should be held liable for misconduct or breach of ground regulations that have caused material loss for the club?
Unsubstantiated?...Quote:
Originally Posted by SSA
I don't have much time for the bluster and show-boating of a bunch of vain intransigents who've cost their club a significant deal of money through their stubborn irresponsibility, but, at the same time, if UEFA had their way, football would be a very sterile place. I have no issue with political expressions at football matches per se - I don't think football and politics can be separated; we're political beings by nature - and I've already given my opinion on the regulation in question - it's daft and arbitrary - but it exists and that's the reality whether we like it or not, so if a group of supporters are going to engage in outlawed activity at significant cost to their club, they should at least do the decent thing; take responsibility and cover the fine.
I hope you realise that, whether you mean for it to be perceived as such or not, what you express above is an inherently political view. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr A
It is undeniably a contentious point of view that relates to how you believe other humans should act or behave in a particular situation and would arouse great disagreement with those who wish to see and use their community's club as a vehicle for wider communal expression, as is so common around Europe. Football clubs have traditionally been channels through which their supporters have expressed their communal identities; be they ethnic, national, cultural, religious, political or whatever. I don't think it's possible to remove these elements from football because the supporters and their intrinsic identities are an integral part of the game. To pretend that politics and football are separate and mutually exclusive entities is to impossibly try and deny the human nature of the game's adherents.
For what it's worth, if there was a choice in the matter, I wouldn't like to see these elements removed from the world of football anyway. I loathe football grounds that have more in common with a clinic. The game would be soulless and terribly bland without the emotion and humanity its supporters bring to it with their various baggage.
So you keep saying and I doubt anyone here would actually disagree with that; their plight is a tragedy of unspeakable proportions. It's a moral outrage what the Israeli state is doing and has been doing this past half-century. In an ideal world, we'd all be able to say what we liked, wherever we liked. Or, even better, there would be no Israeli occupation and bombardment of Palestine for us to get disgusted with. But that doesn't really deal with the (admittedly much more trivial) issue at hand; what is your solution to this present predicament in which Dundalk find themselves exactly? It's an insignificant one in the grand and worldly scheme of things, but it's still a rather sh*tty problem that Dundalk have to deal with. This is Dundalk's reality and it doesn't pale into non-existence simply because it's not as important an issue as Gaza. Is it right that Dundalk have been involuntarily dragged into this humanitarian matter through a combination of stupid UEFA regulations and irresponsible flag-wavers? UEFA might have a fairly rotten and unsavoury core, but it still doesn't change the fact that Dundalk are down quite a lot of money due to the irresponsible posturing of some of their supporters. Will those supporters cough up the fine?...Quote:
Originally Posted by wonder88
There could be trouble; the Palestinian People's Front and the People's Front of Palestine are already down to attend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr A
Quote:
Originally Posted by White Horse
Funny that. I believe that some of SSA's leaders are affiliated strongly to groups that are affiliated to RNU.
What about Justice for the 96 banners and flags - is that not a political campaign?Quote:
Originally Posted by White Horse
I got this from an Ajax website:Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
Alot of Ajax fans and Jews don't like the link and wish Ajax would drop it. Also in England, the Jewish community, Peter Herbert and Kick It Out have asked Spurs fans to stop the Y-d chants as it's offence.Quote:
For Ajax, the image of being a Jewish club comes from the fact that Amsterdam was called the "Jerusalem of the West" before World War II. Some 80,000 Jews are said to have lived in the city at that time, and many were Ajax fans. The De Meer Stadium, where the team played home games until the 1990s, was in eastern Amsterdam, where most of the city's Jews lived at the time.
"When Ajax played teams from more provincial regions, the guest fans would take streetcars to the stadium from the main train station and go through the Jewish quarter. That's how many people saw Jews for the first time in their lives," says Hans Knoop, a Jewish journalist and spokesperson for a foundation that addresses anti-Semitism in Dutch football.
After World War II, Ajax also had some prominent Jewish leaders, among them Jaap van Prag and his son Michael, who both served as club president, along with Uri Coronel, who also served in that position. Among the players on the club's celebrated teams in the 1960s and early 1970s were Jews Bennie Muller and Sjaak Swaart, not to mention Salo Muller, a physiotherapist loved by players and fans alike.
During and after the 1970s, Ajax was repeatedly subjected to anti-Semitic hostility in the Dutch national league. To fight back, the hooligan group "F Side" demonstratively took on a Jewish image in 1976. The group is still active today, though its members aren't particularly interested in solidarity with Israel or Judaism, says journalist Knoop. "Some 90 percent of Ajax fans don't even know where Israel is," he tells SPIEGEL ONLINE. "When they yell 'Jews, Jews!' or 'Super Jews,' it's about firing up the team and nothing else."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
It's has a lot to do with football. LFC are looking for justice for their fans. So there's the link. Robbie Fowler was fined for wearing a t-shirt showing support for the dockers. It was a stupid fine but them the rules UEFA go by.
Yes, but their rules are moronic and should be challenged at every opportunity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Like the one when a team got kicked out of Europe for fielding a player who was ineligible two minutes from time in a tie that was already over. And then there was the FC Sion affair.
And your point is...
One of the "co chairman" :rolleyes:/ whatever you want to call him has recently got out of prison and is associated big time with that other shower.Quote:
Originally Posted by GCdfc
Sadlier on RTE last night about it if it's not been posted yet, absolutely bang on with what he said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sGQ8iCGksw
Also just to say as well that the SSA was originally set up by a couple of young fellas who are for want of a better term "proper" supporters. Instead of hanging around street corners or acting the maggot etc; they put their time, effort and money into making flags, tifos, displays and helping out around the club.
They're a credit to the club, themselves, their parents etc and it's an absolute shame that all their good work has been sullied and co-opted by a couple of middle aged auld fellas with axes to grind and delusions of grandeur who want to cause ructions and be the pied piper to the rest who are only there for the cans and the wannabe green street experience, not to mention bullying anyone and everyone who doesn't do what they say.
IMO, Legia shouldn't have been kicked out of the Champions League as the player had no impact on the game. It wasn't cheating, it was an administive mistake. But UEFA rules say if an ineligible plays for his team the game is void. Legia have plenty of grounds to appeal (like Dundalk have) but the rules are there in black and white.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Seems to me that Dundalk FC have had issues with their support now for a while yet they dont look like they are willing to resolve it in anyway. Just blaming supporters for everything wont solve anything, and leads to mad situations like this.
This is a very important point and I would hate for these young lads to think that they are looked down upon by the rest of the fans.Quote:
Originally Posted by colonelwest
The problem, and it is a substantial ome, rests with one or two older individuals.
Dundalk FC have had great support, home and away. There is an issue with one or two individuals and their attempt to steer impressionable young lads into areas that cause problems for the club.Quote:
Originally Posted by bennocelt
Definitely seems like an ego thing from a couple of fans alright.Quote:
Originally Posted by White Horse
1) Told numerous times to take the flag down. Did it anyway
2) Sought "legal advice" and contacted UEFA directly
No one with an ounce of self-awareness would do either of these
They appealed even to the CAS, who have a lot more credibility than UEFA currently. And it was rejected. It's hardly as if it's not happened before.Quote:
Originally Posted by GypsyBlackCat
CAS turned away Legia's initial request "that [the club] be provisionally admitted to participate in UEFA Champions League matches until the CAS renders its final arbitral award" in order to confirm that the Maribor-Celtic tie could go ahead without Celtic having to worry that Legia might be reinstated at their expense, but Legia are still proceeding with a case for compensation anyway, however ill-advised that might be. It's not as if progress guaranteed them Champions League qualification anyway. They still would have had to navigate through another qualifying round, so it would be hard to quantify any potential loss anyway, even if they did have a legitimate case (which they don't).
I recall that, aye, but it wasn't the clubs' Jewish links (which are somewhat dubious anyway) that I was questioning. I was questioning why they'd be allowed to display flags of Israel. Is it actually the case that UEFA allow them to wave Israel flags? Judaism and Zionism are not the same thing. Whilst Judaism is a cultural/religious identity, Zionism is very much a political force.Quote:
Originally Posted by GypsyBlackCat
But it was harsh on Legia, just like this fine is harsh on Dundalk. It was a mistake and a misunderstanding of the rules. If we go by DFC statement, it's even harsher because Dundalk were going by the rules and some idiots broke them.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
What else can Dundalk do though? It's a no-win for them; they're seen as either silencing their supporters' voices on the day of the game if they fulfill their obligation as requested by the UEFA delegate or they're seen as blaming the supporters for pointing out that it was these individuals' actions that got the club fined. The only other option is to refuse to recognise UEFA's authority and opt out of UEFA competition.Quote:
Originally Posted by bennocelt
I understand what you mean. As I understand UEFA feel both Palestinian/Israeli flags will be seen to be as a political statements because of the current conflict. So we have to want and see if Ajax and Spurs will be fined if they use Israeli flags. It's difficult to call with Ajax and Spurs but Rangers and Linfield have displayed Israeli flags at European games in the past which is a political statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
Except that the CAS decided this and Legia even admitted they were in the wrong eventually...Quote:
Originally Posted by GypsyBlackCat
All four, including the Zombies and their baby cousin have had Israeli flags on show this season, albeit at least one of them aren't going to play in a UEFA-designated competition for a while?Quote:
Originally Posted by GypsyBlackCat
Well Ajax haven't played in Europe yet and I think I covered Spurs. I haven't seen any of Linfield's European games this season so I'll take your word for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
True, but it seems from previous fines they willfully accept them (Unless I am wrong). And if they accept this fine then why are they even bothering appealing it?Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
Well it looks like this whole saga has taken some kind effect in Israel and Palestine. A long-term ceasefire has being announced and Israel will ease the Gaza blockcade. They mustn't have thought the fine was a bit too much for Dundalk to pay?!
Apparently, the proposed ceasefire is contingent on an agreement between the SSA and UEFA.Quote:
Originally Posted by GypsyBlackCat
Does this mean SSA will get their apology from UEFA now?
Ok on now to the next conflict.......Syrian flags anyone?
I don't know if it's willful or not - I don't know who'd be happy to receive a fine - but what can they do other than accept such fines really? They're in no position to refuse to pay. (I think UEFA already deduct it from their competition bonus anyway.) They can appeal the fine all they like but the end result will most likely be the same; they'll eventually have to accept the fine and might even have thrown further money down the drain on any appeal. If a club takes part in UEFA competition, they explicitly acknowledge UEFA's authority and accept the over-riding application of UEFA's governing and disciplinary regulations. The only other option is to refuse to participate in UEFA competitions or cause some serious bother between the FAI and UEFA, thereby possibly risking domestic punishment also. What other options are there to resolve these supporter issues without blaming the supporters concerned and banning them from Oriel Park?Quote:
Originally Posted by bennocelt
"Palestine slag" Oh godQuote:
Originally Posted by ATFC-1887
Be honest, you were waiting for someone else to point that out..Quote:
Originally Posted by ATFC-1887
Mistake or have we been discussing a completely separate topic for the last 8 pages?Quote:
Originally Posted by ATFC-1887
No...Somebody already did, but i didn't notice until now.Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954
The issues here are not the few expressions of political causes that one might come across on occasion, it's the pervasive rot of racism and fascism that infects the atmosphere at football stadiums. if you want to rid the game of all expressions of racism and fascism, even their cynical sanitised political versions, then you have to ban all political expressions not appropriate to a sporting event and I really fail to see how that should have a negative effect on atmosphere.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
If at game in the 6 counties, you see a banner with the loud initials KAT displayed then you'd think that means Kill All Taigs, then you go up close and and see in small letters in the corner, Keep Antrim Tidy.
So what does not fall foul of the law, does not equate to acceptable mandatory standards of decency and respect.
What's legal does not define the standards of morality that we want at a sporting event, which is a non political, multi cultural event.
Within those UEFA limitations there is plenty of scope to express whatever but it's not a place to demonstrate your political cause no matter matter how worthy you feel your cause to be.
The daft thing about this situation is that when fans of Celtic held a Pro-Palestinian stance in 2009 against Hapoel Tel-Aviv at Celtic Park, fans were urged by some groups to wave Palestinian flags in the stadium and many did, search the web yourselves if you want to see them but what did UEFA do?, absolutely nothing.
nevermind what I had posted here.....
Judging by the statement by Dundalk it looks like UEFA have said Israeli and Palestinian flags are considered 'political' this season due to the current conflict.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBoss