LOI series 20 & 17 - Premier and First division fixtures.

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Originally Posted by Ezeikial

What are you unsure about?

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I'm unsure as to whether there was any FAI findings. I was replying to your post

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If you were in the ground with the main body of Pats fans (either in the stand or on the terrace) surely you witnessed the violent behaviour of a number of supporters who "attacked" a security fence in front of the stand?

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I did. I hope the locked fence has recovered

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The main issue here is what Dundalk FC (and other clubs) can learn about improving Safety and Stewarding, but it should not be inferred that the behaviour of all fans was exemplary

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I have yet to hear anybody say otherwise

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Originally Posted by Dodge

I did. I hope the locked fence has recovered

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Locked fences and sober fans.
They say opposites attract.

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Originally Posted by Dodge

Now we have a situation were the FAI have decided that Dundalk made errors and rather than have the whole league learn from it, it's just dealt with quietly. As I've said a number of complaints were made. Which were upheld and which were dismissed?

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Dundalk would have a hard time justifying why terrace supporters were allowed into the away stand section.

It appears that clubs have to assume that all supporters are drunken yobs intend on causing violence. Unfortunately, some Pats fans played up to that stereotype.

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Originally Posted by Ezeikial

Locked fences and sober fans.
They say opposites attract.

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I know the 2 guys who jumped on the fence and neither were drunk. One doesn't drink at all. Such was the chaos that night that nobody was in charge and therefore panic set in. As some one who helped the Pats doctor climb over a wall to see to the injured lad, it's pretty easy to see how some thought that gate was an impediment to proper treatment arriving

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Originally Posted by White Horse

Dundalk would have a hard time justifying why terrace supporters were allowed into the away stand section.

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What's the justification for not allowing people who paid into the stand having seats and being forced to sit on the stairs long before the steward at the gate went missing?
What's the justification for not allowing people who paid into the stand access to toilets in the stand and instead instructing them to the portaloo on the terrace in the rain?
What's the justification for the stewards not attending to a fan who has falling down in front of him and laughing at him instead?
What's the justification for stewards telling away fans to **** off when they asked for their name?
What's the justification for having no ambulance or even stretcher available to treat injured fans?

EDIT; I don't expect you to answer this. As Ezekial said, the FAI's report would be interesting to see

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It appears that clubs have to assume that all supporters are drunken yobs intend on causing violence. Unfortunately, some Pats fans played up to that stereotype.

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by not causing any "violence" at all (except to try and open a gate they *believed* was stopping the medical team from coming into the stand)?. Are you trying to suggest there was any other "violence" that night. Caused by "drunken yobs" or not?

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Originally Posted by hoops1

300 Euro

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There's a bit in today's Star that claims that's the amount Dundalk were fined

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Originally Posted by Dodge

What's the justification for not allowing people who paid into the stand having seats and being forced to sit on the stairs long before the steward at the gate went missing?

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The bit in bold is new to me as I haven't seen it mentioned before. So the steward as you say "went missing". I don't know where he went but maybe there was something more urgent he was called away to than standing beside a gate. Did the St. Pats fans on the terrace took advantage of an unmanned gate and went into the stand and caused the overcrowding rather than a steward opening the gate?

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Originally Posted by Dodge

There's a bit in today's Star that claims that's the amount Dundalk were fined

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Seems very low for the FAI. Is €300 a standard size of fine?

Maybe they realised that Dundalk had the best interest of St. Pats fans in mind by trying to keep them dry.

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Originally Posted by GCdfc

The bit in bold is new to me as I haven't seen it mentioned before. So the steward as you say "went missing". I don't know where he went but maybe there was something more urgent he was called away to than standing beside a gate. Did the St. Pats fans on the terrace took advantage of an unmanned gate and went into the stand and caused the overcrowding rather than a steward opening the gate?

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To be clear, the away stand was already overcrowded. Before kick off there were people sitting on the stairs. There were also Pats fans in the 'home' part of the stand behind the barrier that had been placed up to corden off away fans. This was part of the gripe for some (ie there are spare seats there and there are already Pats fans sitting there, can you now allow those sitting on the stairs to sit in those empty seats).

Then towards the end of the first half the steward who was manning the gate from away terrace to away stand went missing. I've no idea why. Some from the terrace (not all) took the opportunity to take shelter in the stand. There wasn't room for them. Some went back out in the rain, Others stayed and by hald time the barrier was 'breached' by some fans allowing them to sit in empty seats behind where the away stand section had been

How is the St Pats fan now ?

I hope he gets adequate compensation for his injuries

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Originally Posted by CrowdedHouse

How is the St Pats fan now ?

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He's up and about in his back brace. Won't be back working for a "few months" (his words)

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Originally Posted by Dodge

Then towards the end of the first half the steward who was manning the gate from away terrace to away stand went missing. I've no idea why. Some from the terrace (not all) took the opportunity to take shelter in the stand. There wasn't room for them. Some went back out in the rain, Others stayed and by hald time the barrier was 'breached' by some fans allowing them to sit in empty seats behind where the away stand section had been

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That's the first I've heard of Pats fans breaking into an area that they knew they were not entitled by their tickets to be in.

I had assumed that a steward took pity on their lack of appropriate clothing.

I know that the families who were sitting in the family area invaded by Pats fans complained to the stewards very forcibly. Some of the behaviour and intimidation of Pats fans towards young families was sickening.

Lessons need to be learned by the stewards. These are not fans that can be treated as civilised and responsible people.

Herd them in to the ground, then herd them out.

The papers only say they BELIEVE the fine to be between 200-300 euro and that the fine is not directly related to the incident. It also goes on today the FAI have told our new owners to make improvements which it says have already been implemented and that the FAI will send an inspector down in the coming weeks to ensure that these improvements are been implemented.

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Originally Posted by Dodge

I know the 2 guys who jumped on the fence and neither were drunk. One doesn't drink at all. Such was the chaos that night that nobody was in charge and therefore panic set in. As some one who helped the Pats doctor climb over a wall to see to the injured lad, it's pretty easy to see how some thought that gate was an impediment to proper treatment arriving

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This is disingenuous.

As you well know there were many more then "2 guys" who attacked the security fence and this could easily have escalated into a major incident. Your apparent justification or excusing of this behaviour does you no credit and from my perspective impacts on your credibility about events that evening.

How badly did they damage this fence?

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Originally Posted by White Horse

That's the first I've heard of Pats fans breaking into an area that they knew they were not entitled by their tickets to be in.

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That's why I asked the question. So, it seems that the Pats fans were to blame for a lot of the overcrowding! Funny how the truth starts to weed itself out after a while. I hope that the respective clubs and FAI read the eye witness account we got.

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Originally Posted by White Horse

That's the first I've heard of Pats fans breaking into an area that they knew they were not entitled by their tickets to be in.

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To be fair, there's quite a few things about the night that you either missed or forgot. At least now you've admitted you weren't aware of all the facts

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I know that the families who were sitting in the family area invaded by Pats fans complained to the stewards very forcibly. Some of the behaviour and intimidation of Pats fans towards young families was sickening.

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I was there and didn't see any of this. You weren't (clearly as you weren't even aware that the steward wasn't on the gate). There was chanting, and use of bad language. Is that sickening? It wasn't restricted to away fans either way

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Lessons need to be learned by the stewards. These are not fans that can be treated as civilised and responsible people.

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Just so we're clear, at no stage were any fans treated as civilised and responsible people (including forcing pensioners to climb over fences to sit with their friends)

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Herd them in to the ground, then herd them out.

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That's clearly the idea in Dundalk already

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Originally Posted by Ezeikial

This is disingenuous.

As you well know there were many more then "2 guys" who attacked the security fence and this could easily have escalated into a major incident. Your apparent justification or excusing of this behaviour does you no credit and from my perspective impacts on your credibility about events that evening.

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It was not. 2 guys climbed on the fence for that exact reason. Others may have pushed. You call everyone inviolved a drunken yob and you talk about my credibility? Pathetic

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

How badly did they damage this fence?

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No damage at all. Incident lasted 20-30 seconds and when they were told the locked gate wasn't the reason why the medical team weren't attending the unconscious lad, they backed down

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Originally Posted by GCdfc

That's why I asked the question. So, it seems that the Pats fans were to blame for a lot of the overcrowding! Funny how the truth starts to weed itself out after a while. I hope that the respective clubs and FAI read the eye witness account we got.

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When has the truth been hidden? It seems like you want to believe only this part of my post but not others. Funny that.

For the record, the away stand was full at 7.30 and had people sitting on the stairs. I was sitting in the 'home' part of the stand directly behind the barrier (with plenty of other fans and plenty of other seats).

It seems most Dundalk fans are happy enough to defend the actions of their stewards (even those who admit they weren't aware of many of the facts), so I'll leave it here.

Good luck hosting Shamrock Rovers next week

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Originally Posted by Dodge

When has the truth been hidden? It seems like you want to believe only this part of my post but not others. Funny that.

For the record, the away stand was full at 7.30 and had people sitting on the stairs. I was sitting in the 'home' part of the stand directly behind the barrier (with plenty of other fans and plenty of other seats).

It seems most Dundalk fans are happy enough to defend the actions of their stewards (even those who admit they weren't aware of many of the facts), so I'll leave it here.

Good luck hosting Shamrock Rovers next week

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I am always the first to criticise DFC stewards which is obvious from our forum but there is no taking away from the fact that people who didn't pay for the stand went into it without permission thus making any situation worse. It is possible during matches for home fans to get into the stand when stewards are distracted by other things but you don't see that happening!

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Originally Posted by GCdfc

I am always the first to criticise DFC stewards which is obvious from our forum but there is no taking away from the fact that people who didn't pay for the stand went into it without permission thus making any situation worse. It is possible during matches for home fans to get into the stand when stewards are distracted by other things but you don't see that happening!

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Again, I've never said differently. The problem already existed though.

And to classify all those who entered as yobs is beyond disingenous (I know you didn't BTW). A 50 year old friend of mine was one who moved in as he saw the crowd move and believed that Dundalk had opened up the stand to all away fans due to the torrential rain that night (as others here believed).

There was no intention on the part of any of those Pats fans to cause trouble, even of they certainly added to the problems that already existed.

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Originally Posted by Dodge

To be fair, there's quite a few things about the night that you either missed or forgot. At least now you've admitted you weren't aware of all the facts


I was there and didn't see any of this. You weren't (clearly as you weren't even aware that the steward wasn't on the gate). There was chanting, and use of bad language. Is that sickening? It wasn't restricted to away fans either way


Just so we're clear, at no stage were any fans treated as civilised and responsible people (including forcing pensioners to climb over fences to sit with their friends)


That's clearly the idea in Dundalk already


It was not. 2 guys climbed on the fence for that exact reason. Others may have pushed. You call everyone inviolved a drunken yob and you talk about my credibility? Pathetic



No damage at all. Incident lasted 20-30 seconds and when they were told the locked gate wasn't the reason why the medical team weren't attending the unconscious lad, they backed down



When has the truth been hidden? It seems like you want to believe only this part of my post but not others. Funny that.

For the record, the away stand was full at 7.30 and had people sitting on the stairs. I was sitting in the 'home' part of the stand directly behind the barrier (with plenty of other fans and plenty of other seats).

It seems most Dundalk fans are happy enough to defend the actions of their stewards (even those who admit they weren't aware of many of the facts), so I'll leave it here.

Good luck hosting Shamrock Rovers next week

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By the sounds of things, we wont have too many of them to deal with.

Most of their supporters buses they are boycotting :)

The less of them the better

Listen, lads - just build a bridge - and get over it.

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Originally Posted by Dodge

I know the 2 guys who jumped on the fence and neither were drunk.

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Originally Posted by Ezeikial

This is disingenuous.

As you well know there were many more then "2 guys" who attacked the security fence and this could easily have escalated into a major incident. Your apparent justification or excusing of this behaviour does you no credit and from my perspective impacts on your credibility about events that evening.

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Originally Posted by Dodge

It was not. 2 guys climbed on the fence for that exact reason. Others may have pushed. You call everyone involved a drunken yob and you talk about my credibility? Pathetic

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It was disingenuous of you to try to give the impression that there were only two fans involved. "Others may have pushed" is more pedantic nonsense. It is not the most important part of the events of that evening, but your attempts to minimise and justify this violent rampage does you no credit

Yet again, you are incorrect about your assertion that I called "everyone involved a drunken yob".

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Originally Posted by avvenalaf

Listen, lads - just build a bridge - and get over it.

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Fair enough. But I want to know how many are allowed on the bridge at any one time, who is responsible for the stewarding, and whether - like this thread - it's on the road to nowhere?

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Originally Posted by Ezeikial

It is not the most important part of the events of that evening, but your attempts to minimise

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Hmmmm.

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Originally Posted by Dodge

It seems most Dundalk fans are happy enough to defend the actions of their stewards (even those who admit they weren't aware of many of the facts), so I'll leave it here.

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And how many Dundalk fans have you spoken to in this whole quest you have undertaken from the accident. I think you will find that MOST of us think our stewards are useless and wont defend them for any actions. Take for example, they will take a can of one chap causing no problems but then wont go into the hardcore areas of the ground to take glass bottles off drunken idiots.

I think you would find it hard to find a reasonable Dundalk fan who wouldn't describe our stewards as useful as bulls with tits, are as subtle as bull-dozers and have cop on. I am miffed that no statement has been made or publicised about this by DFC or the fAI is they have their own investigation and also what remedies or if any are in place to ensure that a situation like this doesn't arise again. To make it clear we all want OP as a top stadia with the best facilities that can be offered but unfortunately we are were we are, due to lack of investment in the club even prior to the Matthews era that we are hurting now because of it. I don't know if even a small investment of a few thousand in an Awning for the away tce would of helped or even stopped yer man falling but I doubt it would of fuelled the fire so to speak. I hope the club release a statement to inform Dundalk supporters of their plans. none of us want to see any loi fan injured

Its all a bit of a fudge. Only a limited amount of stand tickets are sold to away fans, when they run out thats it terrace only so the error could not be in over selling stand tickets so how did the overcrowding occur even before the match - a valid assumption is that people without stand tickets entered that area. As there were available seats in the home section on the balance of things it looks like this initial overcrowding was caused by away fans. Dundalk stewarding obviously failed here by not checking tickets or by going awol and allowing the oppertunist take a seat in the stand.
Tensions due to this overcrowding were running high so a more restrictive approach causes things like directing people away to toilets on the terrace rather than usually having stand toilets available to away fans.
A dangerous but well intentioned decision exaccerbated the situation in allowing people into a covered area.
Fan gets injured and security are slow to react not realising the seriousness of his condition also very poor further increasing tempers. In an attempt to get help angry and panicking friends of the injured lad started pulling and jumping on a security gate that leads to the players and officials area. The stewards on that gate are unaware of the injured supporter and interpret this behaviour as yobbish and not untypical of the sort of behaviour of some people when their side loses, lots of agression, swearing trying to forcefully open the gate (which as it happend is a premanent replacement gate for a barrier that shamrock rovers broke through after being beaten 5-1 few seasons back).
Such raised tension and anger lead on the night to allegation after allegation via all social media, and then the counter allegations, people questioning who was where, what was seen, exaggerations, finger pointing...........all to no avail as the only thing to do was to wait on an independent report of 'facts'. Now that this hasnt happened we are back to to the allegation/counter allegation. Point scoring on semantics is creeping in (Dodge you you say some people may have been pushing the gate, so you are not totally sure about that so you too are not aware of all of the facts).
If the fine is as reported €300 this indicates that where ever fault lies for Dundalk it is at the lower end of the scale which does not equate to the level of outrage from Pats fans which we still cannot consider as totally unjustified due to the silence from FAI, Dundalk and even St Pats. If there is a civil action pending is there a reason there is minimal response to findings and fines?

It needs concluding but again if as reported the FAI have made recommendations for changes at Oriel to improve supporter safety, this has been implemented and the FAI will make further iinspections well then isnt this what we all wanted? - for something like this never to happen again. Unless of course some people were looking for their pound of flesh and they have been disappointed.

Anyhow the situation the arised has been revised and changes have been made and thats the bottom line now!!

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Originally Posted by Nesta99

Its all a bit of a fudge. Only a limited amount of stand tickets are sold to away fans, when they run out thats it terrace only so the error could not be in over selling stand tickets so how did the overcrowding occur even before the match - a valid assumption is that people without stand tickets entered that area. As there were available seats in the home section on the balance of things it looks like this initial overcrowding was caused by away fans. Dundalk stewarding obviously failed here by not checking tickets or by going awol and allowing the oppertunist take a seat in the stand.

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Some pretty big assumptions there. The steward was on the gate between terrace and stand until about 20 minutes into the first half. The place was full at 7.30. Are you putting all the pre-match over crowding on him? Or maybe Dundalk just couldn't say no to the extra fivers.

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Tensions due to this overcrowding were running high so a more restrictive approach causes things like directing people away to toilets on the terrace rather than usually having stand toilets available to away fans.

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This isn't true. The toilets thing happend quite early in the evening. The away fans couldn't access them because of the barrier, not just because of stewards actions

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A dangerous but well intentioned decision exaccerbated the situation in allowing people into a covered area.

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What decision was this?

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In an attempt to get help angry and panicking friends of the injured lad started pulling and jumping on a security gate that leads to the players and officials area. The stewards on that gate are unaware of the injured supporter and interpret this behaviour as yobbish and not untypical of the sort of behaviour of some people when their side loses, lots of agression, swearing trying to forcefully open the gate (which as it happend is a premanent replacement gate for a barrier that shamrock rovers broke through after being beaten 5-1 few seasons back).

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There was no steward on the gate and the fans who tried to open it were already on the inside (ie the opposit side of the away terrace) so that pretty much nullifies all your points there...

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Point scoring on semantics is creeping in (Dodge you you say some people may have been pushing the gate, so you are not totally sure about that so you too are not aware of all of the facts).

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People did try and push the gate. The "may" part was because I simply couldn't believe someone would try and categorise that as violent behaviour

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If the fine is as reported €300 this indicates that where ever fault lies for Dundalk it is at the lower end of the scale which does not equate to the level of outrage from Pats fans which we still cannot consider as totally unjustified due to the silence from FAI, Dundalk and even St Pats.

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St Pats have not been informed of any sanction by the FAI (as of today). As neither dundalk nor the FAI have commented on the fine amount you can believe what you like about whether complaints were justified or not

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It needs concluding but again if as reported the FAI have made recommendations for changes at Oriel to improve supporter safety, this has been implemented and the FAI will make further iinspections well then isnt this what we all wanted? - for something like this never to happen again.

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But how will we know? We all know what a sham licensing is. Are you trying to suggest the FAI don't cover crap up?

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Unless of course some people were looking for their pound of flesh and they have been disappointed.

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Do you honestly believe this is the case and why do you think it is that Pats and ROvers fans are (seperately) discussing boycotts of Oriel Park. I understand some Rovers supporters clubs are aleady doing so

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Originally Posted by Dodge

Some pretty big assumptions there. The steward was on the gate between terrace and stand until about 20 minutes into the first half. The place was full at 7.30. Are you putting all the pre-match over crowding on him? Or maybe Dundalk just couldn't say no to the extra fivers.

Very serious issue if you are implying the overselling of a limited number of seats because Dundalk just couldnt say no to a few extra fivers, and an issue that Dundalk should or would have payed a heavy price for. It didnt happen as the exact number of tickets available to sell for that section are seperated from home stand allocated seats, when they run out that is it terrace only. You know as well as anyone what caused, on the balance of probability, overcrowding on a miserable night in the stand early on as you claim. If the steward didnt check tickets then yes he is initially responsible. What time did that steward take his position in relation to people arriving on the away terrace? Im sure that not one pats fan with a terrace ticket upon arriving in to the ground would take a seat in the stand as the steward wasnt there before fans started to arrive. But as you you were in the stand before 7pm i am assuming you would have taken notes on when exactly that gate was covered by a steward and the number of fans that entered that gate. Again it is a basic stewarding error either way.



This isn't true. The toilets thing happend quite early in the evening. The away fans couldn't access them because of the barrier, not just because of stewards actions

Ok the barriier was there to divide the away section from the home, 'quite' early you say overcrowding started and some Pats fans were already taking seats in the home section, the home section was closed off entirely and people needing toilets were directed to an alternative within the away section - so what?


What decision was this?

Really???

There was no steward on the gate and the fans who tried to open it were already on the inside (ie the opposit side of the away terrace) so that pretty much nullifies all your points there...

So therefore those fans were in the Dundalk ie home section, how did that happen? They were trying to get in to the away section in an area where players officials, club officials and stewards (usually the one that accompany the refs off the pitch) etc all leave through to the players tunnel. So how long after the match did the accident occur for the place to be so deserted. If you got access to the Pats team doctor there was access to others although maybe they ignored everything. The quickest way to the stand in this situation would be to go back out on to the pitch and hop the perimeter wall beside the dugout particularily to avoid both waiting for a gate to open and crowd congestion leaving the ground/stand.



People did try and push the gate. The "may" part was because I simply couldn't believe someone would try and categorise that as violent behaviour

So they may have pushed the gate earlier now they did push the gate-so two guys on top of the gate some pushing the gate trying to get in to the away section, in a blind panic and probably with a few beers too - i can see how that would never be misconstrued by security!

St Pats have not been informed of any sanction by the FAI (as of today). As neither dundalk nor the FAI have commented on the fine amount you can believe what you like about whether complaints were justified or not

Fair enough!


But how will we know? We all know what a sham licensing is. Are you trying to suggest the FAI don't cover crap up?

Allegations Allegations - ok the FAI are a mysterious and odd bunch but what benefit to cover up, we are hardly in the an FAI favourite gang as one of the Model club members?

Do you honestly believe this is the case and why do you think it is that Pats and ROvers fans are (seperately) discussing boycotts of Oriel Park. I understand some Rovers supporters clubs are aleady doing so

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The away section is ****e but you are paying less than anywhere else, you know what you are getting! Rovers can boycott what they like as i'm sure If they were topping the table they would just as quick to boycott, the way their attendances are falling off in tallaght maybe there is a general boycott. Maybe you can organise a solidarity movement with them. If we could afford it we would have a nice tidy 8k all seater ground with padded seats and marble toilets for all our esteemed guests. But to answer your question i do think that you hoped that Dundalk would get a hefty fine and serious sanction on the away section of the ground and then all the wailing and gnashing of teeth would have been justified and people coud have tweeted about it till their hearts content.

alas i shall say one again.... the situation that arised has been revised and changes have been made and thats the bottom line now..so end of! If i am to believe the papers

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Originally Posted by Nesta99

The away section is ****e but you are paying less than anywhere else, you know what you are getting!

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Simple as that so. Even those in that away stand

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Rovers can boycott what they like as i'm sure If they were topping the table they would just as quick to boycott, the way their attendances are falling off in tallaght maybe there is a general boycott.

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Do you realise how petty this is when they're still averaging twice what you're getting (and Pats too...)?

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But to answer your question i do think that you hoped that Dundalk would get a hefty fine and serious sanction on the away section of the ground and then all the wailing and gnashing of teeth would have been justified and people coud have tweeted about it till their hearts content.

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That's pathetic. Why would I do single out Dundalk? Get a grip

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alas i shall say one again.... the situation that arised has been revised and changes have been made and thats the bottom line now..so end of!

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You keep saying end of, and you keep posting...

A retort to your selective interpretations of what is being discussed or patronising tones in your posts why not reply? As the all knowing all seeing Oracle i thought you might address some issues that might help clarify things in the absence of findings by the FAI, for whom its is done and dusted. I can be flipant about boycotts and have a swipe at falling attendances without it being a ****ing contest re average attendances im not taking any moral high ground. People felt wronged by what had happened in Oriel and im sure they wanted to see proper sanction, it didnt happen to sufficiently appease, i never said that you were singling out Dundalk!*(ok reading back i phrased poorly - by you i meant St Pats rather than just Dodge specificially)* What about those in that away stand? Avoiding giving an opinion or addressing the relevant questions above and resorting to a bit of bitching once again says more than what you actually have said with substance.

Does anybody have an update on the condition of the gate?

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Does anybody have an update on the condition of the gate?

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They decided not to fix it untill next week as your fans are on a boycott this weekeend

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Does anybody have an update on the condition of the gate?

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The word is we are expecting the biggest one of the season so far on Friday night.

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Originally Posted by oriel

The word is we are expecting the biggest one of the season so far on Friday night.

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Well played :cool: