Debate - Future of Youth Development in Irish Football

Stephen Hunt was on Off The Ball on NewsTalk last night talking about the amount of money young players are on in England now, and whether or not that affects their drive to succeed: http://media.newstalk.ie/listen_back...niqueID=828663

Wasn't sure where to post this piece exactly, but I think it should fit in here OK.

'Why are there so few Irish players in the Premier League?': http://www.theguardian.com/football/...premier-league

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Originally Posted by Robert Redmond

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In the 2007-08 season, Irish players made up 6% of footballers in the Premier League, the second most represented nationality after England. In the 2013-14 season, Irish players accounted for 4.7% of top flight participants, down to the fourth most represented nationality. Observers might argue this is not a particularly alarming drop, but Irish football is clearly in a state of decline.

The national team is currently ranked 70th in the world. The numbers following the career paths of Giles and co, departing Ireland as teenagers to make it in Britain, are ever dwindling and their career paths have been stemmed. Last season Celtic’s Anthony Stokes was the only Irish representative in the Champions League group stage, and the three best Irish performers in the Premier League were Seamus Coleman and James McCarthy of Everton, and Hull City’s Shane Long, now of Southampton.

The paths taken by these three players are at the heart of Irish football’s woes; they are successful, or play for Republic of Ireland, by accident, not design. McCarthy is a Glaswegian of Irish descent who chose to represent the country of his grandfather’s birth. The Irish diaspora may be large and the team have long used it as a means of finding players, but it is no longer a reliable model. McCarthy is the exception to the rule and, as the playing pools for England and Scotland continue to dwindle, Ireland will be fortunate if a player of such quality falls into their lap again.

Coleman and Long are also cases of accident rather than design. They come from rural, Gaelic Games strongholds in Donegal and Tipperary. Neither are football academy graduates and both played for provincial football teams before moving to England as adults. Long was 18 when Reading signed him for a nominal fee; Coleman was 20 when David Moyes took him to Everton for £60,000 in 2009. Despite their undoubted raw talent and admirable work ethic, the transfers would have been considered low-risk transactions for the English clubs.

Coleman and Long moved to England around the age when many of their Irish contemporaries would be returning home, or dropping down the divisions, having failed to make a breakthrough at the top clubs. These players would have taken the path treaded by Giles, Brady and O’Shea, moving to England as a teenager, entering the youth team and hoping to progress to the reserves and then the first team. However, for the vast majority of Irish football emigrants, the path is now blocked.

Liverpool manager Brendan Rodgers was in Dublin for a friendly with the Irish side Shamrock Rovers last May. The Northern Irishman was quizzed on the declining number of Irish prospects at English clubs and gave little hope for optimism. “It’s a lot more difficult now,” Rodgers said. “A lot of the Irish lads start their apprenticeship at 16, but even then it’s too late as boys across the water are beginning at the age of eight and by the time they’re 16, they’ve been trained technically, tactically, physically and mentally and then they’re ready to step into full-time football.”

Rodgers paints a bleak picture for young Irish footballers. The lucky few who manage to get to English club academies, the players deemed to be the best prospects, are already significantly stunted due to the greater accelerated development of their new team-mates. If they survive and then thrive enough to make the first team of a top flight club, it will be something akin to a footballing miracle, another case of accident trumping design.

The current situation facing Irish football is either to improve the exported product or focus on being self-sufficient by developing a viable outlet for talent to thrive at home. Ireland is a small country – the Republic has a population of just over 4.5m – and thus the talent pool is comparatively shallow. However, unlike bigger countries, Ireland’s population is largely centralised and therefore the condition is ripe to introduce a centralised development plan. Uruguay, a country that mirrors Ireland in this sense, albeit with a stronger footballing identity, has done so in recent years. There is a clear, cohesive structure and development plan from youth to senior football, when the best players will be exported. Irish football by comparison is fractured.

Another argument offered for Ireland’s woes has been the challenge of other popular team sports, such as Gaelic games and rugby. However, football is the number one participation sport. The Dublin District Schoolboys League is the largest league of its kind in Europe, with over 200 clubs and 16,000 players competing. One would imagine there has to be another Liam Brady in there somewhere.

So if the interest and participation remains high, the onus falls on the coaches to mould and educate the talent. However, it is strikingly obvious that, like in England, there are not enough coaches. In 2013, Ireland had 45 Uefa Pro licences, 183 holders of the A licence and 488 with the B licence. These qualifications are markedly more expensive to obtain in Ireland and England than in Germany and Spain. There are still many coaches at all levels without such qualifications who devote their time and effort admirably.

That said, there are also too many coaches who favour physicality over creativity, who instruct their teams to hoof the ball to the big lad and who place an emphasis players minimising their mistakes above expressing themselves. Physical prowess is valued over technical or cognitive development. The Irish culture of exporting talent also leads to many coaches seeking the short path, hoping they can be the one to get their player a dream move to a club in England.

The dangers of developing players for export, just like the migrant experience, are not unique to the Irish. At the World Cup it was startling to see Brazil, a footballing giant with a population of 200m, with so few creative, dynamic players in their midfield. To develop such a player takes time, patience and technical coaching. Instead Brazil had Hulk.

Scouts from elite teams will still visit Brazil, hoping to find the next great prospect, but the same cannot be said of Ireland. After a few months in his new role, Ireland manager Martin O’Neill was disparaging about the lack of young players to select, saying: “In the back of my mind, I thought ‘there must be five, six, seven young lads playing who will maybe break through’. But at this minute, I haven’t spotted it.”

These players could materialise if Ireland had a cohesive structure with a clear playing philosophy and a greater number of coaches to properly implement it. This would involve patience, foresight and, of course, money spent on grassroots football; three attributes few would associate with the Football Association of Ireland. John Delaney, the chief executive, has an annual salary that is more than the prize money awarded to the winners of the domestic top flight. The association has had a raft of redundancies in recent years and their primary objective is reducing their debt by 2020.

Essentially the organisation, like Ireland as a country, is run akin to a multinational corporation, where the financial bottom line is what counts. The Irish government’s sustained policy of economic austerity, an offshoot of years of neo-liberalist subjugation and mismanagement, has fuelled mass migration and further widened a wealth gap that was the largest in the developed world even during the boom years.

This is a place where the needs of the grassroots are diminished by the wants of those at the top the pyramid. The prospect of self-sufficiency, conjecture or even a sustained reflection on the many social problems is just not feasible. In such a scenario, the chance of the next Giles, Brady or Keane breaking through at an elite English club is about as remote as the migrant staying the night at the lodgings that allowed “No Blacks, No Dogs, No Irish”.

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So going by that then England must be producing really talented footballers?

Yes, ha ha.

Bit of a weird article. Starts off rabbiting on with trite emigration imagery and finishes rabbiting on about neoliberalism, with a brief superficial mention of football in the middle. Not sure the question is the right one either. We should be asking why more Irish players aren't playing in the Champions League and Europa League, a better metric of where we are.

Nothing wrong with a rant against neoliberalism.

Also they forget the 'cyclical' factor, as in groups of good players come and go sometimes, more by accident than design.

Be that as it may, it's a bit weird as a postscript on an article lamenting the lack of Irishmen playing a role in sport's most brazen example of unchecked, unbridled, globalised capitalism.

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Also they forget the 'cyclical' factor, as in groups of good players come and go sometimes, more by accident than design.

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Is that actually the case though? The likes of Germany and Spain are consistently good through design. England get a slagging, but they'll invariably have enough talent to qualify for the finals. It's exceptionally rare that they fail to make it. I'm not even sure there is such a factor, but if there is, there is no cycle that would ever, through accident, allow us to successfully and consistently compete with or better the aforementioned teams or teams with design plans in place. We have no design plan, so we now see where a reliance on accident gets us; we have less players playing at the top level and being able to compete for places in teams featuring players from countries that have better developmental and youth coaching infrastructures in place. Worryingly, we're becoming less competitive as other countries reach or surpass our limited level of relying on the production of top-class players overwhelmingly through chance.

Well, exactly...

Didn't our U-19s get to a European semi-final recently enough? Didn't the same core of players beat Italy 4-2 away at U-21 level, and beat Holland shortly afterwards?

I think the problem with our young players comes from hitting the glass ceiling at EPL clubs, who have too much at stake to risk blooding young players. Same thing happened with most of Brian Kerr's 'golden generation' in the late 90s. Technical ability was not the issue - we had a lot of players who lost years of development playing reserve-team football, realising they could earn a good wage in the lower leagues, and not pushing themselves to become as good as they could be. Then consider the injuries, illnesses and booze-related factors that curtailed many a promising career. The 19-23 phase seems to be the stumbling block for most of our young players who go to England.

SFAI guy gets seat on FAI Board, first time in years SFAI has been represented.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/s...rd-284102.html

Is SFAI part of the problem or part of the solution? Either way it surprised me that such an important part of the game had no Board representation.

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Originally Posted by Supreme feet

Then consider the injuries, illnesses and booze-related factors that curtailed many a promising career. The 19-23 phase seems to be the stumbling block for most of our young players who go to England.

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The FAI made Terry Conroy redundant. He was the Welfare officer for UK based Irish kids playing professional football. I think his salary was part-paid by the Department if Foreign Affairs. They should have had ten of him, not none of him.

Dan McD with an inspirational rallying call.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/socc...-30551246.html

Drug lords are investing more money in youth sports clubs than the government.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/drugs-cartel-boss-christy-kinahan-turns-robin-hood-by-funding-inner-city-sports-clubs-30567371.html

However, the amateur sports club boss, who spoke on grounds of anonymity, told the Sunday Independent: "The Government haven't bought so much as a ping-pong ball for any of the clubs I know. I don't think there's a club in Dublin that got a penny. The politicians were all talk when they set up CAB, that the money would go to inner-city kids to keep them away from crime and drugs. No surprises, that was all ****e.

"Everyone around here knows Christy [Kinahan] has put up money for [named club]. They've the best of gear. And I could run off a dozen clubs who have got money the same way.

"The Government say they are going to divert drug money into the communities and not a penny comes down, not a ****ing penny."

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Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

Drug lords are investing more money in youth sports clubs than the government.

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And sure why not accept such donations with open arms? It's cleaner than the money you'd get from the government! :p

I love the subtext of the interview. "If the government continue to refuse to put drug money into inner-city sports schemes, we're just going to have put our own drug money in. Either way, somebody's got to dip into their drug money pot!" Ah, community spirit.

A couple of articles on thescore.ie caught my attention this afternoon.

Cricket Ireland has received a multi-million sponsorship award from an Indian / Irish family business to develop an academy. Nice for Irish cricket!

Greg Dyke at the FA announces his intention to make it much harder for non-EU players to get permission to play in England, claiming too much foreign mediocrity is clogging up domestic players' pathways. Of particular note was his intention to ban the loaning out of non-EU players abroad or into the Football League.

I think that's a fair move, if workable, and would benefit us, at least at the margins.

I look forward to hearing the ideas generated by the FAI Commission. Oh, wait, there isn't one.

That "Indian/Irish" family are one of the richest in the world and part of the wider Tata group. Irish by chance as much as design...

Quinton Fortune on the state of affairs in South African football.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/...-what-happened


I could just as easily have pasted this into the Euro 2020 in Dublin thread in context of the legacy.

Some excellent stuff here from Miguel Delaney:

http://migueldelaney.com/2014/10/08/...ball-part-one/
http://migueldelaney.com/2014/10/08/...s-dont-add-up/

"Between ages of 6 and 16, European players get 14 times more touches on ball than Irish players."

For all the endless debate about managers and who exactly should be in the team- this stuff is massively more important than that.

Very good article, someone actually bothering to go into the field to interview and properly research some of the points made before on foot.ie.

Dokter seems to come out of Miguel's interviews quite well.

I presume yer man Kinsella is the father of the young fella just gone over to Everton, and if so, was his move to comply with underage players needing to be accompanied for family moving for work reasons?


It's great that Miguell put some meat on the bone, but in a way it's not that much news to readers here, that there does seem to be a growing number of clued-in constituents but the whole structure is too fragmented and political. The anecdotes and quotes were very telling though. Interesting that JD and the FAI seem aware of the need to change things but they are only doing so in a softly softly manner. That's what I took out of it on first read anyway.

Given the fact that Iceland are doing something, even if it is on the basis of what geysir has said in the Opponent watch thread, been as a result of enterprising individuals; it's high time we just accepted that this needs to be the beginning now. We are falling so far behind it is embarrassing. The more we delay the longer it will take to get back to where we were.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Very good article, someone actually bothering to go into the field to interview and properly research some of the points made before on foot.ie.

Dokter seems to come out of Miguel's interviews quite well.

I presume yer man Kinsella is the father of the young fella just gone over to Everton, and if so, was his move to comply with underage players needing to be accompanied for family moving for work reasons?


It's great that Miguell put some meat on the bone, but in a way it's not that much news to readers here, that there does seem to be a growing number of clued-in constituents but the whole structure is too fragmented and political. The anecdotes and quotes were very telling though. Interesting that JD and the FAI seem aware of the need to change things but they are only doing so in a softly softly manner. That's what I took out of it on first read anyway.

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It is Tom Kinsella's dad, yeah, ex-Bohs and Athlone player and former Shamrock Rovers physio.

Miguel Delaney is a very good journalist and very interested in stats, etc. so looking forward to the article.

Anyone got any thoughts on this?

http://www.thescore.ie/futsal-irelan...30462-Oct2014/

That was a well thought out article by Miguel, he put a lot of work into it and the final product is a very good overview of the crux of the matter. I know John Delaney is being paid a relative fortune but he is being made a scapegoat by some critics for all the ills in Irish football, if he was a maintaining cause of this dysfunction then yes he would deserve all the criticism, but from what I can gather he's shipping far too much criticism and the expectations of what he's supposed to be fixing are way too high. The heftier issues are elsewhere and this criticism of Delaney is glossing over and deflecting from where the problems are.
When Ireland u19s played Norway and Sweden recently in friendlies, our team of mainly English club based players faced two intl teams composed of mainly local league based players, local based players with the established clubs in their leagues and probably most of them started their serious football with that club around the age of 15 or 16. One difference now is that those teams from Norway and Sweden are a level better than us, even though our players are at supposedly better resourced clubs in England.
So not only is Irish football structure disjointed but the coaching at English clubs are also failing us :)

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Originally Posted by BonnieShels

Given the fact that Iceland are doing something, even if it is on the basis of what geysir has said in the Opponent watch thread, been as a result of enterprising individuals; it's high time we just accepted that this needs to be the beginning now. We are falling so far behind it is embarrassing. The more we delay the longer it will take to get back to where we were.

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Just to clarify one point, it began with individual ex pros starting up modern coaching schools in 2000 but the Icelandic FA integrated it all with the league clubs. Those individual coaching enterprises became defunct the following season, as all was incorporated into the league club coaching network. So instead of a kid joining Eidur Gudjonsson's school of modern excellence, they signed on with their local league club.
Communism has a few plusses.

That's even better.

Imagine the FA of a nation thinking it a good idea to join things up...

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Originally Posted by geysir

That was a well thought out article by Miguel, he put a lot of work into it and the final product is a very good overview of the crux of the matter. I know John Delaney is being paid a relative fortune but he is being made a scapegoat by some critics for all the ills in Irish football, if he was a maintaining cause of this dysfunction then yes he would deserve all the criticism, but from what I can gather he's shipping far too much criticism and the expectations of what he's supposed to be fixing are way too high. The heftier issues are elsewhere and this criticism of Delaney is glossing over and deflecting from where the problems are.
When Ireland u19s played Norway and Sweden recently in friendlies, our team of mainly English club based players faced two intl teams composed of mainly local league based players, local based players with the established clubs in their leagues and probably most of them started their serious football with that club around the age of 15 or 16. One difference now is that those teams from Norway and Sweden are a level better than us, even though our players are at supposedly better resourced clubs in England.
So not only is Irish football structure disjointed but the coaching at English clubs are also failing us :)
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As head of the FAI, he should have to take the criticism, but apart from LOI fans who is giving him a hard time? Not the mainstream media anyway, with the movies n magazine specials, and the ole ole brigade love him to bits! :D

interesting interview with Stephen Bradley here: http://www.independent.ie/sport/socc...-30781087.html
Just been appointed a scout for Arsenal in Ireland, and will be the PFAI’s coach for a FIFPRO tournament in January. I wasn't aware of the details of why he didn't make it in England.

I wasn't really sure where to put this ,but not being able to start a new thread I think that this is the best one .....
I was wondering why the FAI don't invest in elite LOI players and then cash-in on the transfer fee. Of the current international team/generation (mcclean,doyle,n.hunt,long,fahey,coleman,forde) only mcclean went for a half reasonable fee. the main problem is purely the fact that their contracts are either out to they are paid so little that it costs very little to buy them out. Added to that the fact that any Irish club (I think) would jump a the change to sell their best player for 250 000.
So my solution is , the FAI choose the best 20 - 25 LOI players (I consider that each premier division club has two or three players who could potentially ''make it'' abroad) and they buy 50% of their rights (south American style à la Hulk and Tevez) and then they would get 50% of the transfer , which would legally have to be more as the foreign clubs would be buying them out of a bigger contract.
If you take 25 players x 52 weeks x 250E = 300 000 per year. Long and Doyle have already been sold on for over 12million so with a better negociation power,sell-on % could easily be input into the sales.
Does something like this not happen in the MLS? their contracts are owned by the US federation I think...
any ideas?

No. Pure no. In an ideal world that would only work if the association had a long-term planning bone among anyone in charge and if the other vastly more pressing issues that exist in the Irish game were dealt with first. Which they haven't been. So, no.

I think the concept of central contracts might have some merit but as Bonnie says, the FAI has to sort itself and other issues out first. I expect it'd require UEFA or FIFA sign off though because of the issue of third party ownership which they are trying to regulate more closely.The MLS does indeed have such a system, as far as I know.

As things stand the clubs can't afford anything longer than 9 month contracts so they make next to nothing in transfer fees anyway, only training compensation. Whether the FAI can afford anything longer is another matter, but at least the FAI's interest would now be more directly aligned with the development of players and the progress of the league.

It would need to be very well thought out as there are all kinds of reasons why clubs would object, but could also welcome it.

The UK football writer Patrick Barclay has gone as far as saying the all footballers' contracts be owned by their national associations. Of course, then, who would own Jack Grealish's contract?!

MLS has full ownership of contracts. The FAI could arguably have gone down the third-party contract route in the past but not now UEFA is moving towards a complete ban. Even if they weren't, I don't think UEFA would sanction the league taking a financial stake in players' contracts. It would be a conflict of interest, especially if the intention was to sell players on.

Nice idea, but giving the FAI financial clout and an interest in plundering a squad or two of their best players? With our luck, on his way to the market Delaney would swop players with some random stranger for a handful of magic beans that would turn out to be... beans.

(On a positive, though, it would let the tabloids run a 'going for a song' headline...:D)

I'd love to be going to this:

http://www.extratime.ie/newsdesk/art...nd-its-future/

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I'd love to be going to this:

http://www.extratime.ie/newsdesk/art...nd-its-future/

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There is an added element, the aura of mystery of just who is the leading schoolboy “emerging talent” coach scheduled to discuss the main issues.

Didn't particularly want to start a new thread for this, so I'll stick it here as not sure where else to put it. Jim McGuinness has undertaken the FAI Coaching Pathway: https://balls.ie/football/jim-mcguin...er-management/

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Originally Posted by PJ Browne

It’s just over two years since Jim McGuinness first took up a role with Celtic as a performance consultant. Ever since, there have been some half-serious shouts for him to one day become manager at Parkhead, especially following the departure of Neil Lennon at the end of last season.

The former Donegal manager may actually be taking his first steps towards soccer management or, alternatively, he just wants to gain a better understanding of his current work environment.

According to The Donegal Democrat, McGuinness has undertaken the FAI Coaching Pathway. He has already completed the Kickstart 2 section in Dungarvan and begins the FAI Youth Cert Coaching Course next week in Galway.

He’s still a good bit off that UEFA Pro Licence yet though.

https://balls.ie/wp-content/uploads/...ng-pathway.jpg

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He'll probably need badges to actually coach with the first team. He's worked plenty in football before, and would make a damn fine manager. His motivational skills are absolutely second to none.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/s...es-320926.html

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/socc...-top-1.2153120

Stephen Ward and Stephen Quinn owe debt of gratitude to DDSL.