The trouble about the Europa League stats is that they represent how well the reserve teams of the sides (English anyway) have got on in that competition. In other words it is the League Cup of European Football.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
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The trouble about the Europa League stats is that they represent how well the reserve teams of the sides (English anyway) have got on in that competition. In other words it is the League Cup of European Football.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
Yeah I'm not sure they tell much of a story. The three Spanish sides which have won the competition, Atletico, Valencia and Sevilla are probably most comparable to Liverpool, Arsenal and Spurs in the PL. Arsenal have been in the Champions League knock-outs for the past 13 seasons now so they never had an opportunity to do anything in the Europa. Liverpool have had extensive runs in the Champions League also and would have probably won the Europa instead of Atletico in 2010 only for a late Forlan goal at Anfield in the semi final. Spurs and two time winners Sevilla had a decent battle in the 2007 quarter final. Middlesbrough and Fulham are the two PL clubs to actually reach the final and they would be more comparable with Spanish sides likes Levante or Betis. What I mean is that Sevilla and Atletico beating Boro and Fulham would be about as expected as Arsenal beating Levante.
For the majority of the past decade I would come to this conclusion:
Barcelona > Man Utd
Real Madrid < Chelsea
Valencia < Arsenal
Atletico Madrid < Liverpool
Sevilla > Spurs
As for the rest of the clubs we don't really have any stats to base assumptions on.
The stats over the last 10 seasons are one thing. If you look at a pattern over 20 years it shows a gradual rise, followed by good years and now that prominence is being rattled. I think the EPL managed to catch up with the other leagues and perform well, in a bubble of debt and tv subscriber money, now the other leagues have moved ahead and the football being played in the BL, La Liga and Serie A, is way ahead of what you get in the EPL.
The gulf between the EPL and the other top european leagues was in evidence last season, even if the stats show that Chelsea won the CL. That gulf looks to have widened this season. I wouldn't brush away the manner in which Man City and Man U were outplayed last season in the EL, as a league cup type performance. It remains to be seen what happens to the EPL clubs still left in European competition this season. As I see it, Man U are one of the weakest of the group winners and weaker than some of the 2nd place teams.
Not sure about that Geysir really. Things don't change that fast and it's only about 18 months since United hammered Schalke 6-1 in the Champions League semi final. You can't brush that away any more than the Athletic Bilbao defeat last season. There's a bit of a buzz about Dortmund right now, but United have been pretty much a constant force in recent times. It remains to be seen whether they are one of the weaker group winners but I think that's a harsh enough statement about a club that have contested three of the last five finals. Only Barcelona from the group winners have earned the right to be considered stronger in my opinion. Dortmund, Bayern and Juve are obviously strong too though along with Real and maybe Shakhtar from the second placed teams.
Since 2002/03 there have been 11 teams who have finished in the top 4 and 3 different winners in La Liga. In the same period in England there has been 8 teams and 4 different winners. Bundesliga has 10 teams and 5 different winners. Serie A has 10 different top 4 teams and 3 winners. This shows there is very little between the competitiveness between leagues in Spain, Germany, England and Italy. I took the top 4 because they are the Champions league places. Arsenal have made the top 4 every season but are no where near being title contenders for the last few seasons. In Spain there is a big gap from 2nd and 3rd over the last few years but the rest of the league is more competitive with Villareal going from CL qualifiers to being relegated the following season. In Spain the top two are a lot stronger than most teams and would probably be that far ahead of the rest if they were in any other league.Quote:
Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo
It's just an opinion and much remains to be decided on the pitch to support that opinion.
No doubt, when the opinion has proven to have (more) merit, we can discuss the decline of the EPL at a future date :)
I agree with geysir. I think the only thing keeping sides like Man U and Chelsea up is the fact they have the money to attract world class players in their prime, as opposed to clubs like Dortmund that actually produce them.
Yeah that's a given. The Dortmund model is much more commendable but I was speaking purely from a 'who are better' point of view. As Geysir says, time will tell... well it might not but it should give us a better idea.
A bit of an over-simplification. For all but last year, only the top 3 German clubs had the chance of the CL. The teams that finished 4th in that 9 years included teams as diverse as Stuttgart, HSV, Hertha, Bayern, Hannover - all missed out on the CL in those respective years. Incidently last year Italy fell below Germany in the UEFA club ranking and so it was Lazio who missed out in 4th.Quote:
Originally Posted by squareball
While a lot of people mention how Sky pumps the Premier League out, and how heavily it's advertised on tv. It should also be said that Sky also pumps La Liga out nearly as frequently (around 3-4 matches of both each weekend) albeit with marginally less publicity and with the sterile and wooden Scott Minto struggling valiantly with his autocue. La Liga is almost as available to a passive fan via TV as the Premier League, and is a lot more readily available than the Bundesliga or Serie A.
Despite their 'mediocre' CL record, in the long-term German football's surely in a more healthy financial state than their English counterparts.
Though the latter have attracted some amazing players on occasion...
The draw:
Galatasaray v FC Schalke
Celtic v Juventus
Arsenal v Bayern Munich
Shakthar Donetsk v Borussia Dortmund
AC Milan v Barcelona
Real Madrid v Manchester United
Valencia v Paris Saint-Germain
FC Porto v Malaga
Some good matches there, for me Dortmund v Shakhtar is the tie of the round, probably the two most dyanmic sides in the Champions League based on the group stage this season. The English teams look to have got hard games, Madrid and Bayern are top draw sides, but Bayern slipped a bit in their first match to BATE, and also at this stage last year they wobbled away in Basle (before smashing them at home). I think every team winning the above matches will be hoping for Porto/Malaga in the next round (or maybe Schalke v Galatasaray).
See geysir it's not just me!Quote:
Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo
Yes Bonnie, based on this season.
I do note your observation skills are lacking, and also earlier in the thread when I commended Dortmund as a transformed team from last year's CL efforts. Meanwhile, you were hiding sheepishly in the background, afraid to play the Dortmund card a second time in a row, after last year's embarrassment.
I thought I commented on your commendation of Dortmund. And I'm sure I mentioned something about my disastrous judgement last year. I also believe I may have said something on several occasions this season. Though it's hard to remember, what with life going on outside of here. Lighten up man It's Christmas and the world may end tomorrow. Win win!Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
I am light or already lit.
Got you on the defensive fast enough.
Great draw. Tie of the round obviously is Man Utd v Real Madrid (I don't care if it is a Sky Sports wet dream).
What's the slowest acceptable speed of defence?Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
I know you seem to have a particular interest in Russian/Ukrainian football. It's been a pretty poor few weeks PR-wise. Luiz Adriano's disgraceful antics against Nordsjælland and Zenit's biggest fan group's racist requests. The Zenit thing, in particular, must be a fairly big embarrassment with St. Petersburg being one of the potential host cities for the 2018 WC. This should surely put them out of the running?Quote:
Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo
Incidentally, Liverpool have been drawn against them in the Europa League last 32.
There is no way given St Petersburg is Putin's hometown that it will not be a host city.
Didn't know that. Could be fun if Ghana or some crowd are drawn there!Quote:
Originally Posted by BonnieShels
So we'll likely have all the English sides out of the Champions League come the quarters. Watch Irish TV stations flounder as they struggle to figure out which games between superior European sides will attract moderate interest.
Think it will be pretty straight forward, especially if the winners of Galatasaray/Schalke and Porto/Malaga are kept apart and play on different nights. Also, if United have Vidic back playing regularly by then I reckon they would have a pretty decent chance against Real.
Darren O'Dea according to Trap.Quote:
Originally Posted by BonnieShels
A lot of the bigger names drawn together early, could lead to a smaller team in the final this year. Some good ties there. I fancy Celtic for an upset against Juve. Is who the winners face in the next round already decided or do they do another draw?
Adriano was pretty poor against the Danish team, he shouldn't have done that and when he did Stepanenko should have let the Danes walk in a cancelling goal. Although the Danish player went down easily after minimal contact with the Shakhtar midfielder to start the whole thing, either way the storm over that has pretty much blown over and luckily it was against the weakest team in the group and in a match that was an easy victory for Shakhtar so it didnt materially affect the group in the end.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
I havent read exacty what the Zenit fans were saying about the make up of the team, but sadly they have a very miliant section of "ultras" who are racist and bad behaviour does happen occasionally with these fans. Porto have similar problems with a group of "ultras" fans that heckle opposition players of different races. There is also a big section of the Zenit fans who want to see more Russian and, specifically, more St. Petersburg born players playing for them. I don't know if this "memorandum" the fans issued was the former or the latter. Racism is an issue in Russia's big cities (especially against central asians from places like Krygizstan, Uzbeckistan etc), but I think most fans who go to the World Cup games over there will be a mix of families and foreign fans - there havent been major racial issues in Russia's national team home games (as opposed to the club games) which have been played in places like St Petersburg, Moscow and Voronezh. Remember there where a lot of people saying there would be issues in the Ukraine in the summer but in the end it was largely without incident.
I think that match will be a great one as both Shakhtar and Dortmund play superb attacking football. They are dynamic in the sense that they can mix up their games in a way other teams (like Barcelona, Arsenal, Man City) etc cannot. Both have gifted midfielders (like Gotze, Willian, Mkhitaryan, Reus) who can play a short passing game, but they also have the pace on the wings (Błaszczykowski, Grosskreutz, Douglas Costa) and the aerial threat to go more direct and in players like Fernandinho, Srna, Schmelzer and Gundogan have players who can hit an accurate defense splitting ball.
No, it's only the Europa League where they drew two rounds in one go. The next round of CL is not drawn yet - that draw will happen after the games in March. And also there is no country or group protection, so Schalke can draw Dortmund, and Celtic could face Barca again if they all get through this round.Quote:
Originally Posted by the bear
Just googling Celtics path to the final for the Lisbon Lions year. they played FC Zurich, FC Nantes, FK Vojvodina(Yugoslavia), Dukla Prague & Inter Milan. That looks more like a path to qualifying for the group stages these days.
Yeah, I suppose the likes of Nantes would have a lot of the top French players and Vojvodina the top Yugoslavs, etc. but these players are just sold to the top leagues the second they show a bit of potential these days. Pretty sad state of affairs really but that's the way it goes.Quote:
Originally Posted by the bear
Zenit St Petersburg want black and gay players excludedQuote:
Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo
The BBC left out the most mental part of the statement for some reason.
They quote this: "The absence of black Zenit players is just an important tradition that underlines the team's identity and nothing more."
But they leave out the part immediately before: "We are not racists, and for us..."
I'm not making this up.
Yeah, well spotted. The BBC leaving these few words out is almost as bizarre as the Zenit fans claiming they're not actually racist.
It's an exciting last 16 draw, no doubt. But an unfortunate draw for Milan, who have got their season together and have been on a roll since they beat Juve last month with the help of a fortunate penalty.
Hasta la vista for Man U and Arsenal.
Celtic, no matter who they drew were going to be the outsiders. The last time they were in Turin for a CL game, they should have got the draw but for a late atrocious penalty decision.
Ironically, the same ref who was so just and honourable to us against the Netherlands 2001.
haha very true, can't wait to see Giles stumbling and struggling over the players from the non-english teams.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
I remember him referring to Kagawa as the 'Asian lad' when he was at Dortmund.Quote:
Originally Posted by EAFC_rdfl
In fairness to John, despite him mumbling through players names, a lot of what he has to say is pretty pertinent.
Giles might not know the players' names or have done any research on the teams, but he could analyse a 7-a-side game between Mount Merrion and Fatima Mansions C team and do a better job than most professional pundits on a Premier League game.
Another big performance needed at parkhead tonight, bring it!
It's all about the big one tomorrow, Dortmund v Donetsk.
In Dortmund, maybe...
I pop out for 10 minutes to do the lotto and it's 1-0 Juve...
A fool and their lotto dream cannot be separated.
Not bad (apart for the obvious) at Celtic Park.
Pity Samaras is missing, this is his type of game. Ambrose playing is bit of a shock, in more ways than one.
The lotto was for the missus. I swear.
Celtic's build-up play is very good but they have no spark in the box. Attention Trap supporters: this is what real catenaccio looks like.
it's a cracking game all the same.