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It would be very hypocritical of the FAI to support any plan for pre-qualification, and to be fair after the Gibraltar episode I'd be inclined to believe Delaney et al are more sympathetic to the minnows than the big guys. Still, realpolitik might take over. The only way I can there even being an argument for it is if it is balanced out with lucrative friendlies against top-tier nations so they still get the experience of playing against the best and don't get cut out of the financial pie.
I don't see why the Iceland fa chief was quoted in that WSC article, Iceland are not minnows when it comes to the FIFA rankings. Iceland should be passing Ireland by, in the FIFA ranking table, on there way up on Tuesday night.
A good place to start, is to read the arguments for weeding out the few minnows then you might acknowledge there exists a few :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Vast majority of UEFA competitions already have elements of pre-qualifying.
2 which are open to all, are u21 and senior men.
With a population of over 1/2m and one of the richest countries in Europe, Luxembourg would need to be hit with a big stick if they lost a playoff to the likes of San Marino, Andorra, or Gibraltar.
By my reckoning, 10 groups of 5 would have meant say the bottom 4 teams playing-off or competing in pre-qualifying group for 2 places.
With Gibraltar in there, that means bottom 5 competing in pre-qualifiers for 2 places.
This proposal for EURO 2016 is a radical departure from the standard formats of previous competitions.
12 groups of 4, cuts out 5 teams and at the very least you'd involve the bottom 7 teams in a pre-qualifer event for 2 places or the bottom 10 teams if you were to have pre-qualifier playoffs. This makes it a few degrees more ruthless and less palatable.
After the play-off in Paris?Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Yes, and the general travails of a team that suffers from the seeding system being stacked against mid-ranking sides.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
But there are too many teams. And if/when Greenland & Kosovo come in...
Which is not on the horizon at all, barring a major shift in Russia's objections.
To Greenland?
Seriously, Russia must be more worried about further of its own regions breaking away rather than Kosovo which has never been part of its own sovereign territory.
And ultimately is none of their business, despite their own restless Muslim minorities.
That's the exact reason though. Its nothing to do with Kosovo exactly, but the kind of precedent that recognising Kosovo sets - for, say, places like Chechnya (and Russia's pals Serbia, who will never recognise Kosovo). Kosovo won't get full recognised status by the UN anytime soon, so it won't be in FIFA or UEFA anytime soon.
Greenland has its own issues, more to do with ingrained FIFA hypocrisy. They still aren't ready to be members anyway.
FIFA & UEFA seem to be operating under different rules as the former say they're only going to admit full sovereign countries from now on?
Whereas UEFA (& FIFA previously) are happy to include various, almost random, colonial outposts...
Its the recurring issue of the retroactive applications. Gibraltar first applied before UEFA altered its criteria to include provisions that any prospective member state had to be recognised by the UN, so the CAS said such a provision had to be ignored in their case. It doesn't have to be for Kosovo, whose application has come way later, and who are unlikely to be recognised as a UN member any time soon. Your next UEFA member is more likely to be Wallonia or Flanders, or possibly even Catalunya looking at some recent movements in that part of the world.
While its easy to treat Russia as the bad guy in this situation, I actually have some sympathy and time for their viewpoint. Legitimising Kosovo's unilateral declaration of independence is a very dangerous can of worms for future situations. While in the case of Kosovo, most reasonable arguments for independence - a separate national identity, self-governing, not being a "failed" state, no reasonable expectation of reconciliation with state it was once part of, and a (fairly) clear democratic mandate - exist in spades, it might not for any region that wants to take advantage of the precedent set in future, which could potentially cause chaos in parts of the world down the line.
On the issue of football, I think the requirement for UN recognition is a good thing, it just came too late. Its unfortunate for some regions and territories and feel they have a right to a separate footballing identity, but the line has to be drawn somewhere.
I hope that pre-qualification never comes in.
Sadly it is Russia's business as few other countries will bother to stand up for the rights of the Orthodox minority - Greece ran from it and the US and GB just fund mercenary troops to look after installations (as well as maintain a base for keeping an eye on EE and the ME). The issue of Kosovo is very difficult and there are too many human rights issues to be resolved, as well as return of property to make it straightforward. It's a failed state as it is and glorified military base.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
I agree that Russia is worried about it's own muslim regions, especially from pipelines and access, though few would genuinely want to separate - unless it's to form a new caliphate which even Iran doesn't want - though the Saudi's and Qatari's are determined to drive to further destabilise the region for their own perverted religious ends.
Agree with Osarusan, would hate to see pre-qualifying come into Europe, even though it exists in other regions.
I hear you, though personally recognise Kosovo's right to exist, unlike some I suspect. And have at least been to that part of the world unlike many.
However, regardless of the geo-political angle if the no.of European teams just expands inexorably, pre-qualifying is inevitable. And if the rest of the world has to endure this, why should Europe be any different? Smacks of arrogance to me...
Gibraltar get desperate?
http://backpagefootball.com/twitter-now-a-medium-for-international-recruitment/63537/
Earlier on this, or a similar parallel thread I counted the number of games in current Euro qualifying, and then in an imaginary future tournament with many more European teams competing.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Current: 53 teams in nine groups (8x6, 1x5). So 268 qualifying games, including the play-offs in November
Imaginary future: 65 teams in 13 groups (13x5). So only 260 matches.
Clearly the cluttering of the fixture list follows not from allowing in village countries, ex-Soviet oblasts and the like but because five groups of six teams play 25% more matches than six groups of five. A situation which exists largely to insure England, France and Portugal against regularly finishing second in their groups.
I take the point made by Geysir and others, ie that more minnows means more mismatches. Allowing everyone a chance in a mini-league rather than just one two-legged cup tie every tournament outweighs that. That restriction is more arrogant than Europe organising its qualification tourney differently to the others without inconveniencing them.
I imagine Steve Menary refers Iceland in the WSC article because he assumes that such a small country will almost always be a minnow despite current good results ;)
Question to Spud: isn't the Serb minority in Kosovo concentrated largely in towns on the border with Serbia? If so, can't they just redraw the line around them?
If not, sorry for showing my ignorance ;)
If only redrawing borders was so easy...Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
It doesn't work like that as you well know...Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
And the 'ignorance' factor is nothing new!
:rolleyes:
As for the pre-qualfiying debate, posted a link to yer WSC thread in the Euro 2016 one on here.
There are now too many minnows to bother about them all. A no.of which aren't even in Europe anyway...
He quotes the Iceland FA chief saying nothing, lips sealed with super glueQuote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
"......"
I suppose there is some point to that :)
AFAIR Iceland have only dropped to the minnow dungeon once in modern history, after a qual campaign where they hardly picked up a point and dropped into pot 6 for a quick visit. One major reason for that, was they let the u21 squad be at full strength for their qual campaign, and didn't select them for the senior team.
The current situation is that both u21 and senior squads are in serious contention for play-off places.
So, you can shove your Steve Menary assumptions where the sun don't shine :)
Ha, was that after the campaign where even we racked up about seven goals against them in two games...
Doh, it was 4 goals in one game. The other ended 0-0. I may even have been at it, so memorable was the game.
Well AB, who knows what account of past events relating to Irish football is stored your head, but the one sure thing is that it bears little or no relation to reality:)Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
OK it was 4 and it was more than 15 years ago. Do you remember every minor result from back then??
But my 'reality' is no less pertinent than yours...
;)
Any 'real fan' would remember a qualifying result.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Offhand I recall a poxy Sunday afternoon o-o draw at Lansdowne, Keano booed, Aldo retired, and a shaky 4-2 win in Iceland where the Iceland goalie gifted the lucky Irish 2 goals. That goalie managed to survive a post match crucifixion and a 6 year stigmatised exile, and is still playing in the Icelandic league today, aged 40+ something.
So you can. like GR. shove your 7 goals over 2 games memory, where the sun doesn't shine, if there's any room left up there :)
Yeah, right. Of interest again, to a minority of pretty much one...
I thought I already had ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Anyway, apologies to Geysir and any other Icelanders reading, that last comment wasn't intended as the p*ss-take you may have read it as. I've long regarded pot five (where you were seeded for 2012, 2010 and 2008) as one of minnows, as opposed to the krill in number six.
Hoping for a few more rays of sunshine before the Nordic winter kicks in.
AB, do us a favor and add anyone I've forgotten to the list you think should be excluded from European qualifying. So far there's current or past attractions in the British colonial theme park, village countries whether genuinely independent or not, everywhere east of Moscow and Istanbul (although Georgia and Armenia have been almost universally regarded as part of Christendom for more than a thousand years), and of course all not actually on the peninsula of Europe or who once got away with a blatant handball. Thanks in advance.
PS how exactly does/ should it work in Kosovo Mitrovica, since you're obviously an expert on the area? Ta again.
Okay, so, Kosovo, I'm not keen on recognising a bandit state, despite the land being beautiful and possessing a dreamlike quality. It is run for the benefit of the US and their global war on, well, whatever takes your fancy. The whole scale removal of the Croatian (catholic) community is almost complete and the Kosovan government are responsible for the looting and sale of sacred relics from the former enclave. So letting the crims at the head of this statelet get further recognition, I don't know. Why not let in Republika Srpska, Croatian Herzegovina and Transdnestria, ganglands like Kosovo but without the US military bases.
If the Caucasus republics go solo, you've got a rake (a proper term) of republics from Russia to go, Tatarstan, the Jewish Republic, Komi, Mordovia, Chuvashia etc etc. Though the AJR will probably going into Asia. It can get messy.
Still don't know about pre-qualifying, anywhere, let the big boys slog it out and spread the light. As it's going we're going to have a closed shop like the 3/6 nations where countries willing to put the work in are excluded.
GR,
Except we've already had this 'debate', not just here but elsewhere! On numerous occasions.
So you might need to refresh your own memory!
Not to mention improving your spelling. And 'comedy'.
:rolleyes:
Take the other point about Kosovo, but it and various other areas are far more legitimate entities than glorified shopping parks like Gibraltar...
Even Srpska, which when I was there, had aspirations to be part of a 'Greater' Serbia, not just another joke territory?
Then don't reply, posting nonsense, if it's of no interest to you.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
but I guess your problem is you don't know it's nonsense when you post.;)
Just assume what you're going to reply is nonsense and move on.
Hmm, takes one to know one.
Not to mention 'people in glass houses'...re.nonsense.
Take a pill and chill.
Already following Ireland's lead: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/24158900
That's a desperately pathetic attempt to give a synopsis of the Kosova claim for independence from their imposed (post WW2) connection with Serbia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spudulika
But that's not really up for debate in this section.
Kosova is recognised as a republic by the majority in Europe and elsewhere. And it's only a matter of time before de jure becomes de facto.
As to what constitutes a nation is another discussion, but it's not ethnicity, language, religion or race. There are countless examples of nations with various combinations of all 4 components. Discord happens when one ethnic group is treated as 2nd class, suppressed in some shape or form and the ethnic group seeks independence.
India contains a multitude of states, far more diverse in language and culture, than what exists between the various states of Europe. It was the English who united India into its current shape. And in almost every federal state in India, there are independence movements, primarily because one (majority) ethnic group in a federal state seeks to dominate another minority ethnic group, whether it be with language, culture, political representation, economic exploitation, job opportunities etc.
I remember there were a lot of rumours 5-10 years ago about the senior figures in the Kosovan Goverment (or the KLA, at the time) being involved in organ trafficking. It seemed they would take the organs out of prisoners (and later foreigners who had been promised jobs in the country) and transplant them into fee paying health tourists. Wasn't there some big controversy there where some Turkish kid collapsed at an airport after selling/being forced to sell his kidney, and the trail ended up going back to the Kosovan Health Minister?Quote:
Originally Posted by Spudulika
I don't know what criminal activity has to do with Kosovo's popularly recognised claim for independence or what it has to do with validating Serbia's (some would say) bizarre claim to 'own' Kosovo or Kosovo's long campaign to get Uefa/Fifa recognition for their football team.
http://www.uefa.com/memberassociatio...gib/index.html
Its official, Gibraltar will have a team from now on, and two league teams in UEfA football comps
Do they even have a League? And has got to be a fairly low standard, well below even the LSL?
Of course they have a league. And of course, as UEFA members, they get to enter club teams into Euro competition, same as San Marino and Andorra and any other micro-nation.
Yeah, but San Marino/Andorra teams play in neighbouring countries leagues.
Gibraltar don't have that luxury...
San Marino and Andorra still have leagues though.
But according to their FA's their best, albeit very poor, clubs play in the Lge. 'pyramid' of their neighbouring FA?
They have one team in the neighbouring FA alright, but they can't qualify for Europe.