The equaliser in the Carling Cup Final I suppose (I know, I know but it's a big competition to some clubs).Quote:
Originally Posted by KK77
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The equaliser in the Carling Cup Final I suppose (I know, I know but it's a big competition to some clubs).Quote:
Originally Posted by KK77
Yeah true enough a full house that day!Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
So without the "money" wins in the Premiership, we would have had 17 Manchester United wins and 3 for Arsenal. In the long run that would not have been good for the Premiership. In fact without Man City this year, it would have been another boring cake walk for Man U. The only way many of the other clubs can compete against the world brand that is Man U, is outside investment. Incidentally, the Glaziers who bought Man U aren't angels either. The days of clubs like Aston Villa, Derby and Notts Forest winning league titles are gone without investment from elsewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
I see Frannie Lee helped in the presentation of the trophy to Man City. No Joey Barton sneaky elbows and knees in the back for him. He liked the big punch ups with Norman Hunter :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8kxMnc5KUs
Your guess is as good as mine but I think that's too simplistic. The richest team doesn't always win in the Bundesliga when the financial wealth is more evenly spread.Quote:
Originally Posted by OwlsFan
Also, there's quite a bit of research showing that dynasties are tolerated as long as people see the success as having been achieved the right way. In United's case the big factor has long been the core of the 1992(?) youth team and Ferguson. Liverpool's dynasty started with Shankly and was kept alive by successors. European football has always had dynasties yet has kept growing in popularity. I'd be more inclined to argue that without Abramovic wage inflation in the EPL would not have been as abundant and others would have been able to compete on a more even footing. Look how well run clubs like Norwich and Swansea have come up through the ranks. Now the only way you can win is by having an oligarch or billionaire come in - OK, yiou still need to spend wisely and run things well on the pitch, but by and large that skill can be bought.
I'm not naive - English football has always operated on a benefactor-owner model but things have got out of hand. The sums involved are ludicrous, the whole pyramid has been disrupted, the game is bankrupt outside the top flight (and for many within it), the taxpayer and local businesses have been kicked to touch by bankrupt football clubs by virtue of the Football Creditors Rule. Crooks, spivs and opportunists are extracting huge sums from a national asset and will argue till the cows come home against any tighter regulation just as bankers argue against rules that would loosen their grip on the economic rent they extract from what should be a fundamentally useful industry.
Yes, last Sunday was great but if you want competitive parity in the longer run you've got to support UEFA's financial initiatives.
The Bundesliga is still the ideal model?
As ideal as you're likely to get in my opinion. It's not perfect but it's far more sustainable than the EPL's model, or La Liga's where the debts owed by the main clubs to the taxman alone is disgraceful.
Whatever happened to 1-0 to the Arsenal. I had the pleasure of watching Reading 5 Arsenal 7 last night. I had the sneaking suspicion that when Arsenal pulled 1 back before half time to make it 4-1 it might be a close game but who would have thought of that scoreline. A few Arsenal supporters were on camera leaving the ground when they were 4-0 down. Hah! Nice goal by Noel Hunt by the way among Reading's 5. Felt for Reading. Arsenal's equaliser came in the 95th minute when only 4 minutes of stoppage time was signalled and they should also have been down to 10 men.
Great result for Spurs yesterday. I would agree with AVB in that they look like they are getting stronger now as opposed to recent times when they blew up near the finish line. Really like AVB myself. In other news Arry’s missus wasn’t in Dubai with QPR and he trained the team harder than any other team out there! Spoofer!
Sky must be crying in their soup this weekend. Very little to get excited about with only the Champions League place at stake. Hardly edge of the seat stuff.
Wigan gone after years of hanging on in there. Still the players go down, and those good enough will be transferred back up, with an FA Cup medal in their pocket, something the super hero Moyes at Everton was never able to achieve. They and their fans will always have that to look back on rather than mere subsistence in the Premiership every year.
I saw the spending figures below recently:
Attachment 1911
Arsenal have done very well on the amount spent in comparison to the rest. Everton finish each season approximately in line with its spending, possibly a place or two higher. Liverpool are the big under achievers although is there a Champions League in there (can't remember when they last won it)?
How cringeworthy was Niall Quinn on SKY last night? "Everybody loves cuddly little Wigan, they've captured everyone's hearts" and so on, all flippin' night. Yes, there's a lot to admire about them but they went down because they lost too many games. It's not a popularity contest.
As far as I'm concerned Wigan's season has been an unambiguous success. Winning the FA Cup is a permanent thing. A medal is permanent. Apart from a very nice lifestyle what will Mikel Arteta be able to show his grandchildren from his days in England? A passport stamp from when he played in the Champs League?
Paul Jewell threw out that old line last night "but with all the money that the EPL involves the cynic in me says that's more important". I disagree totally, and Wigan's parachute payments are hardly measly anyway. Wigan - yes Wigan - are in Europe and have silverware. So what if they're in the Championship? If they're good enough and smart enough, they can get back and even so, they'll find a level appropriate for a club that attracts, what, 15,000 fans?
I agree Stutts, so what about the money? Football is a contest to see who can win the most games and competitions, not who has the fattest bank account. In fifty years time, Wigan fans will still remember winning the FA Cup. Nobody will have vivid memories of three more seasons of finishing 16th.
I know but kids are brainwashed into thinking that finishing 4th or 4th last is a bigger prize than, well, an actual prize. If I was a Fulham fan I'd have swapped a Europa League win for relegation, no brainer - especially with an owner that could prevent a freefall like wolves or Leeds. Yet even when they were in the final it was seen as secondary to a forthcoming laegue game and at Bolton Gary Megson wasn't particularly enthused about a QF (?) tie against Bayern Munich (?) because he had a game against some other overrated English PL side at the weekend. It's all wrong!!!
And so what if a club earns more money in one division than another? They spend all their money anyway, and more! The money benefits the spivs and hangers-on, not the club itself.
Yeah they won it in 2005. It's amazing the amount of Liverpool fans I know who blame the introduction of Sky and TV money for United's rise and their demise.Quote:
Originally Posted by OwlsFan
Some people just lose sight of the fact that the reason they wanted the money in the first place was to win trophies. If they want to watch large numbers steadily getting larger, I'd suggest they abandon football and look at this website instead. It would make them much happier.
Wahey!
I find it fascinating the difference in attitudes here than to other sites.
Like both of you I always found it annoying when clubs started to decide Cup competitions were distractions.
We were discussing in The pub last Friday night about how many FA Cup winners we all remembered and pretty much I think we could name without fail from 1976-2000 and then it gets hazy. I thought that that was quite amazing how the knowledge of the cups dovetailed with when it became "less important".
I agree totally with Stutts and Peadar. The only thing I would say is that it's a bit of a pity that Wigan's FA Cup win came in the same season as relegation. It does add a bittersweet element to what is probably still the greatest season in their history. But yeah, to choose one over the other I would go with the silverware all day long.
It's probably better that they were relegated last night as opposed to the final day as well. At least now they can turn their frowns upside-down, so to speak, for Sunday and celebrate their cup win with their fans instead of crying about being relegated.
What a day it would have been for them though if they had beaten Villa to stay up as well! To be honest though, the goals they conceded to Swansea last week were unforgivable and they can't have any complaints over the season as being able to defend, even just a small bit, is a vital part of football.
Wigan got what they deserved. They have been floating with relegation since Martinez came to the club bar one season. The seasons previous to him they had good league positions. I suppose if you listen to the media long enough. Great FA Cup win all the same and credit to them.
Super hero Moyes! LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by OwlsFan
I am sure he will break that duck against Wigan in August though can you count the Charity Shield as a trophy? LOL
Mancini counts it as a trophy. God knows why.
You're being very harsh on Wigan. They're a small club who have survived for about 5 years longer than could have been reasonably expected because of their brilliant scouting network and Dave Whelan's business acumen. If more clubs in the top leagues in England operated like Wigan, it'd be a much better place.
KK is probably still bitter that Martinez chose another relegation battle over managing Liverpool.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
All Martinez sides conceeded over 60 goals during his time at the club. They never conceeded 60 or over in the previous seasons. He took them over when they finished 11th.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
He joined them when they'd just lost their manager and two best players. He was charged with rebuilding the team along more modest lines and he's done so impeccably and brought them the first major trophy in their history. He's brought in players like McCarthy, McManaman, Gomez, Di Santo, Kone, even Maloney who could be sold tomorrow for multiples of what they paid.Quote:
Originally Posted by KK77
I would say finishing 11th meant he didn't have a huge rebuilding job but if he did he took the building down. As i previously stated the FA Cup was a great achievement. As a manager he failed to stop them linking goals and the warning signs had been there from his very first season. When he took over they had a goal difference of -11 and by the end of his first season it was -42. I could go on. And if he brought in so many good players how did he manage to get them relegated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
He brought in lots of good players and almost all of them were sold at a profit so he was constantly in a state of rebuilding the side. Martinez taking over coincided with Whelan's business interests declining so he was forced to run the club as a going concern rather than being able to invest heavily. So the years of spending £20m a year on players were over, and he basically had to sell to reinvest, which he did impeccably. When you're constantly selling your best players and bringing in inexperienced youngsters, you're going to find it very difficult to maintain your position let alone advance it.Quote:
Originally Posted by KK77
I understand he works with very limited resources and over the course of 4 seasons there is bound to be times when you run into trouble. But it's the same thing every single season. Look at this season. Wigan definitely aren't one of the worst three teams in the league,yet here they are with one game to go down. Now if Martinez has a better team than some of those above him,how is that acceptable when you've been in charge as long as he has. I'm happy for Martinez winning the FA cup and he probably will get a shot at a bigger club,and I'd be happy to be proven wrong(as long as its not Everton)but Wigan have gone down down because they've made the same mistake that they make every season,and if you keep leaving yourself a mountain to climb,its inevitable eventually you won't be able to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Well Wigan aren't one of the worst teams in the league on their day, but they don't have the squad or the resources to play to their best every day. Every single that finished above them is able to offer bigger contracts and bigger transfer fees for the same sort of players, or better. Wigan made two big signings this year - Kone and Ramis. Kone was a more or less unqualified success, but Ramis having been bought to lead their defence has been injured most of the season. There were times this season when he had no fit centre halves.Quote:
Originally Posted by KK77
And again, you're acting like Wigan plan to start slowly and finish well. Martinez may well train the team to peak towards the end of the season, I don't know, but the fact is they are so erratic because they have a shallow squad compared to other, richer teams.
Much is made of a bad run of defensive injuries, which sounds credible enough to me. Any side with Gary Caldwell anywhere near it is bound to leak goals though!
I suppose only one questions remains really, what is Roberto Martinez greatest accomplishment at Wigan Athletic?
A) Beating Manchester City to win the 2013 FA Cup?
or
B) Making a 100% profit on Conor Sammon?
Going from 2-1 up to 3-2 down home to Swansea and only drawing with QPR (who had 10 men for over half the game) were disasterous results. It's a shame, but they've conceeded the most goals in the league and they have chopped and changed the keeper a fair bit.
Still better than your hero Rafa!!! LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by KK77
Yeah if only Rafa would throw his arm around the players and cuddle them! LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by bennocelt
All about opinions so we'll just have to agree to disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Won it in 2005 for the fifth time.Quote:
Originally Posted by OwlsFan
Well James Mac can be very happy with his decision to turn down Liverpool. Who would have thought Mac would end up with more credible silverware by joining Wigan? Martinez is probably happy enough too overall, even though Brendan Rodgers was clearly their number one choice all along!
http://images.icnetwork.co.uk/upl/li...-180882392.jpg
Yeah Swansea was a killer blow. Terrible defending that night.Quote:
Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo
That was the nail in the coffin. If they had won it they would now be on 38 and only a point behind Sunderland and two behind Villa, Fulham and Southampton. Even if they had drawn that, they could have gone to the Emirates and tried to get a draw (instead they had to go for broke to get the win in the second half) - two draws would have seen them on 37, they would be home to Villa knowing a 2-0 would see them finish ahead of Villa and even a 1-0 win there would probably see them pip Sunderland (who would probably lose at Spurs - chasing the CL - and be on 39 points).
Pearls of wisdom from Paul Merson.
QPR are poor and even Harry says they're not good enough.
Not a fan of Arry myself. Well and truely found out at QPR.
Which bit did Merson say?Quote:
Originally Posted by KK77
Found out, really? Because he could save a club of mercenaries who already looked completely doomed when he took over?Quote:
Originally Posted by KK77