Celtic Cup thread

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Originally Posted by ifk101

If the IFA fanbase doesn't want to support an All-Ireland team, that is their decision and a decision that should be respected by the FAI fan base.

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Thank You. (And it's not just the fanbase, btw, it's also the people who play and administer the game in NI, too).

Any chance you could stop there?

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Originally Posted by ifk101

However the British Home Championship in its most original format was a competition between the four distinct nations of the then United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. Those four "home" nations were England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales. If the English FA are looking to organise a tournament between the four home nations, the four footballing associations that represent those four nations should be involved. Following the partition of the island of Ireland, the IFA assumed the mantle of representing the Irish home nation in the Championship. This perhaps is linked to the fact that the IFA is the first established Irish footballing association, fielded their team under the guise of Ireland for 50 odd years after the split with the FAI, and that the IFA have fielded teams with an All-Ireland representation (even long after the establishment and regardless of the FAI).

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Obviously not, then. Oh well.

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Originally Posted by ifk101

There are five options open to the English FA as they set about organising the make-up of their tournament;
(a) run a four team competition with the Ireland team as a co-operation between the FAI and IFA.
(b) run a four team competition between the four associations that represent the four distinct nations of England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales.
(c) run a five team tournament that includes both an IFA and FAI team.
(d) run a four team tournament between the four founding associations of the tournament.
(e) realise this tournament will open up a can of worms that is best left alone.

Option (c) is the most likely outcome with option (e) running it a close second.

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I might have guessed something like this was coming...

Anyhow, if you are going to speculate on what might/might not happen, you would be advised to get your basic premises right, at least.

First, the BC was not a competiton between "the four nations etc", it was a competition between the representative teams of the four Associations. (And speaking of "representative teams", up until 1950, the IFA's team was drawn from the whole of Ireland, afterwards it was drawn only from NI)

Second, any such tournament is not the property ("theirs") of the FA to organise. Instead, it will be a collaboration between the four British Associations, who will decide between them.

Finally, if the FA doesn't like what the others agree, it is for them to withdraw (as they did with the BC in 1984), or decline to enter (as they did with the Carling Nations Cup). Similarly, it is for any of the other three Associations to decline to participate (just as they all did with "Team GB" for the 2012 London Olympics).

Anyhow, if the four Associations should decide to play each other in 2013 (or whenever), that may properly be termed a revival of the (former) British Championship and it would be appropriate (imo) for the old trophy, currently in the possession of the IFA, to be up for grabs.

If, however, they decided also to invite a fifth Association (namely the FAI), then whatever else, it could NOT be considered to be a revival of the former BC, it would have to be called something else.

As a traditionalist, I would prefer to see the former; also because it would have the side-effect of excluding the (cash-strapped) FAI from participating in a potentially lucrative money-spinner. And a four team/six match tournament might be more likely to be repeated every two or four years(?) than a 5 team/10 match tournament, which I suspect could only be a one-off, due to fixture congestion etc.

That said, if they should come up with a "Five Nations", I would still support NI's participation in it, so long as it wasn't being hosted by the FAI.

Surely this is exactly 'on topic' ??

Even Delaney admitted the CC concept is 'contentious'.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Next time you're in Belfast, why not take a wee dander out to Windsor Avenue, call in at the IFA, and take a look at what it actually says on the trophy?

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Isn't that trophy actually in the Hampden, er, trophy room....

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Isn't that trophy actually in the Hampden, er, trophy room....

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Er, no.

Having lent the Jocks the trophy for display in their museum at Hampden, the IFA, as reigning Champions, got it back in 2005 to be proudly displayed at Windsor Avenue. It remains in Windsor Avenue, just as EG stated.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Er, no.

Having lent the Jocks the trophy for display in their museum at Hampden, the IFA, as reigning Champions, got it back in 2005 to be proudly displayed at Windsor Avenue. It remains in Windsor Avenue, just as EG stated.

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Propped up beside NI's Tidiest Office 2007 plaque and Darron Gibson's birth certificate.

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Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton

Propped up beside NI's Tidiest Office 2007 plaque

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;)

You've obviously paid a visit.

Deary me - it's a shocker for tidiness;)

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Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton

Propped up beside NI's Tidiest Office 2007 plaque and Darron Gibson's birth certificate.

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"Father: Unknown"

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Second, any such tournament is not the property ("theirs") of the FA to organise. Instead, it will be a collaboration between the four British Associations, who will decide between them.

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Freudian slip I would presume :D or do you really believe the IFA to be one of the 4 British Associations, even if there are only 3.

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Originally Posted by geysir

Freudian slip I would presume :D or do you really believe the IFA to be one of the 4 British Associations, even if there are only 3.

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You may check that "Freudian Slip" out with FIFA in their Statute Definitions.

British Associations: the four Associations in the United Kingdom – The Football Association, The Scottish Football Association, The Football Association of Wales and The Irish Football Association (Northern Ireland).

If your not that hot on numbers, we can do A, B, Cs tomorrow?

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Originally Posted by geysir

Freudian slip I would presume :D or do you really believe the IFA to be one of the 4 British Associations, even if there are only 3.

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I trust you've seen Not Brazil's reply - and been suitably embarrassed...;)

Anyhow, you're a Republick of Oireland fan, surely if you can have 33 teams in a 32-team World Cup Finals, why shouldn't it be possible to fit four Associations into three? :D

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Originally Posted by geysir

Freudian slip I would presume :D or do you really believe the IFA to be one of the 4 British Associations, even if there are only 3.

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The IFA is deemed a British Association by FIFA.


edit: oops! I hadn't scrolled down to see NB's reply.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

"Father: Unknown"

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http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/396...weed004gi3.gif

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

"Father: Unknown"

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that's low

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

"Father: Unknown"

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And yet we know his religion...

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Originally Posted by gustavo

Can we get back on topic please?

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Nope. it's round 72 of Not Brazil, Ealing Green and Gather Round vs Ardeebhoy

*Spoiler alert*

nobody wins.

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Originally Posted by boovidge

Nope. it's round 72 of Not Brazil, Ealing Green and Gather Round vs Ardeebhoy

*Spoiler alert*

nobody wins

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Don't be like that, Boo. I'm just waiting for you to suggest a venue for our pre-match pint.

Is it just me who now lives 12000 kms from the centre of my universe, but I really couldn't care less about the game or who wins? Possibly is a win more important to NI as we have have kidnapped all of their players? I am not trying to be controversial, but I would appreciate others' views. Normally I watch every game hoping we win , but due to the political aspect of this game I really don't care less.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Second, any such tournament is not the property ("theirs") of the FA to organise. Instead, it will be a collaboration between the four British Associations, who will decide between them.

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Perhaps.

Or perhaps it will be more along the lines of....."Its our birthday, Its our party, we are hosting that party and you can all either come and enjoy the bit of jelly and ice cream you are given or feck off and we wont have a party at all - I couldnt care less either way" (I/Our being the FA for the avoidance of doubt).

.....

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Originally Posted by gastric

Possibly is a win more important to NI as we have have kidnapped all of their players?

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A whopping one of them has appeared in your senior side so far. Let's not get carried away.

I expect winning the tournament would mean more to Northern Ireland and Wales, because expectations are generally lower. That said, RoI have qualified for one of the last eight tournaments, Scotland none of the last six. Either would be delighted to win it. Obviously you have an advantage as the (relative) form side with three home games.

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Normally I watch every game hoping we win , but due to the political aspect of this game I really don't care less

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It's international football against your neighbors, so bound to be at least a bit political. Would you be equally uninterested if they were qualifiers against England and NI?

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Originally Posted by Junior

Or perhaps it will be more along the lines of....."Its our birthday, Its our party, we are hosting that party and you can all either come and enjoy the bit of jelly and ice cream you are given or feck off and we wont have a party at all - I couldnt care less either way" (I/Our being the FA for the avoidance of doubt)

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I doubt the English FA would do that- they need the money. The Home Nations will be cheaper than Brazil, Germany and Nigeria or likely alternatives.

Was that really worth saying twice? Especially given most of it's pointless waffle.

Beyond those who can be actually bothered to attend (and probably only The Tartan Army will bring even the slightest joy to the occasion), nobody else really cares.
It's a sad reflection of the current Ireland team that we have rather more important games v.Macedonia to worry about than this sh*t. If only, out of the 4 teams competing, we're the only one with even a slight chance of making the play-offs.
These are a pointless distraction.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

I doubt the English FA would do that- they need the money. The Home Nations will be cheaper than Brazil, Germany and Nigeria or likely alternatives.

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Maybe. I forget the reasons for the FA declining to be part of the 'Celtic Cup' (or whatever the original idea name was). I think its discussed earlier in the thread, wasn't it something to do with more glamourous/lucrative friendlies already being lined up? I think a tournament held at Wembley with England in it, would be a money spinner. The Aviva hosted one will just be a pain in the hole for all concerned, attendances will be poor and it will probably be deemed not to have been worth the effort - certainly from a commercial aspect, probably equally so from a footballing one.

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

pointless waffle

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For someone who doesn't care you have a lot to say on the tournament. All the Scots, Welsh and NI fans I know who are going are expecting to have fun.

No-one is suggesting this tournament is more important than Euro qualifiers. That would be true regardless of the strength of the four sides. All four of whom have at least a slight chance of making 2012, although I'll agree yours is the best of a bad bunch. The sad reflection on the RoI side is simply that they haven't qualified much in recent years. The friendlies are only a pointless distraction if you would prefer either a) alternative friendlies with even less 'edge', or b) no games at all. Begging the question, do you actually want to watch regular international football? Remember that teams who don't qualify and shun friendlies play on average only 10 games per tournament, or only four in a finals year.

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Originally Posted by Junior

The Aviva hosted one will just be a pain in the hole for all concerned, attendances will be poor and it will probably be deemed not to have been worth the effort - certainly from a commercial aspect, probably equally so from a footballing one

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If you aren't interested, ignore the tournament. I'm looking forward, despite the eccentric organisation. Looking forward, mainly, to watching NI. I mean, even the 10 games we have to play this year isn't that many. How much money the FAI make, or how little the actual games resemble Barcelona v Inter, is really of much less interest to me.

I was replying to your kids' party analogy on the basis that the alternatives offered were c) a HI tournament or d) nothing at all. A third alternative of England playing other friendlies is plausible, but as a one-off I think they'd go for c) to mark their big year in 2013.

Mainly it's responding to the high drivel count on here.

As for 'fun', well not ever seen too much evidence of that from the usually dour Nordies & Welsh.
Not to mention Ireland's in the middle of its worst-ever recession, so even most of the diehards aren't interested/have better things to spend their cash on.
Also Wales & Scotland have no chance already of even the play-offs.

And if we are to indulge in 'meaningless' games to fill-up the calendar., then the occasional away friendly in a 'new' country, or someone we've not played in ages, would not go amiss.
However, there's far far too much football generally and starting to have sympathy with club managers who say international friendlies should be eventually abolished.

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

And if we are to indulge in 'meaningless' games to fill-up the calendar., then the occasional away friendly in a 'new' country, or someone we've not played in ages, would not go amiss

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Whatever floats your boat, although every exotic fixture away from home against better opposition obviously means that your opponent is playing a less exotic (or 'pointless', as you'd presumably call it) fixture at home. In practice almost everyone will play a mixture of home and away games against lesser and greater rivals.

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However, there's far far too much football generally and starting to have sympathy with club managers who say international friendlies should be eventually abolished

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The main source of too much football is domestic, not international. As you'll know from the recent holiday in English D3, everyone in it plays 46 league games plus three national cup competitions. A couple of years ago, Port Vale played as many cup ties (even without replays) as NI had full internationals.

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

However, there's far far too much football generally and starting to have sympathy with club managers who say international friendlies should be eventually abolished.

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The same managers who bring their players all over the world to play friendlies?

Yeap.

But that's more about money/profile....

And those games are usually even more pointless.

To reiterate, think these games are even more pointless than some international friendlies.

Thats my point. YOu have sympathy for managers who complain about their players playing too much football, even though they make them play even more pointless games...

It's international football against your neighbors, so bound to be at least a bit political. Would you be equally uninterested if they were qualifiers against England and NI?


Gather Around, You trivialise my point. I am talking about so called supporters who send bullets through the post to players because of their beliefs and look upon people of different backgrounds as some sort of inferior species. If NI win it will be seen by many as some sort of political victory rather than a sporting victory. Therefore why then would I be interested.

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Originally Posted by gastric

[B] If NI win it will be seen by many as some sort of political victory rather than a sporting victory. Therefore why then would I be interested.

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Is the reverse true also...if the Republic Of Ireland win, it will be viewed by some as some kind of political victory?

I'm looking forward to a "local derby", with a bit of an edge. "Politics" will be far from my thoughts, win, lose or draw.

Bring it on.

Looking forward to seeing the new Aviva for the first time next month also - should be good banter with the skirt wearers pre and apres match also.

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Originally Posted by gastric

You trivialise my point. I am talking about so called supporters who send bullets through the post to players because of their beliefs and look upon people of different backgrounds as some sort of inferior species

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That was hardly obvious from your (pretty trivial) reply, was it? I read your post as a gentle wind-up and responded in kind. You've continued to avoid the point, anyway. If you're going to ignore a friendly game with NI because a couple of morons threaten violence and most of our fans see the RoI as the biggest rival, what would you do if it was a qualifier? Not enjoy even if you won? Suggest to FAI that they withdraw from the tournament?

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Originally Posted by Dodge

Thats my point. YOu have sympathy for managers who complain about their players playing too much football, even though they make them play even more pointless games...

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Except I never said that. Lazy assumption there.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

Whatever floats your boat, although every exotic fixture away from home against better opposition obviously means that your opponent is playing a less exotic (or 'pointless', as you'd presumably call it) fixture at home. In practice almost everyone will play a mixture of home and away games against lesser and greater rivals.
The main source of too much football is domestic, not international.

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Hmm, sweet or savoury, you decide?

There's too much football at all levels including club games and international.

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Originally Posted by Gather round

If you're going to ignore a friendly game with NI because a couple of morons threaten violence and most of our fans see the RoI as the biggest rival, what would you do if it was a qualifier? Not enjoy even if you won? Suggest to FAI that they withdraw from the tournament?

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Except you're exaggerating our relative importance. The North are only 'bothered' about us, as they seem to think it's of some kind of distorted "political" importance to beat us. Kinda of ironic.

If I was them I'd be more bothered about Scotland and Ingerland. Our 'biggest' rival would certainly be the latter.
And up until around 10 years ago, the North were more animated about them than us on the basis of the fans I encountered.

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Except I never said that. Lazy assumption there.

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You clearly did.

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

If I was them I'd be more bothered about Scotland and Ingerland. Our 'biggest' rival would certainly be the latter.

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I doubt you'll find many Ingerlund fans who would consider the Republic Of Ireland a "big rival".

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

You clearly did.

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If you say so. Think I know what I said. Even it wasn't phrased over-eloquently.
;)

And NB, Was talking about Ireland fans.

Maybe what you said wasn't what you meant, but it was what you said.

Like I say, if you say so.

This thread is rapidly going downhill.

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Except I never said that. Lazy assumption there.

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So you didn't say this?

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

starting to have sympathy with club managers who say international friendlies should be eventually abolished.

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:rolleyes:
My own fault for trying to reason with you