Buckley Park was a regular for postponed games back in the day. Obviously that particular venue won't be an issue now but it will happen elsewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
Buckley Park was a regular for postponed games back in the day. Obviously that particular venue won't be an issue now but it will happen elsewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
Every club resorting to astroturf and no more giving out about Oriel! Get in there!:p
But why would it be too short? Because its the done thing everywhere else?Quote:
Originally Posted by legendz
At the moment we have 18 home league games at the top level, add in Setanta and the domestic cups - its too much - always has been, 13 home games per season would give the clubs a better chance to market the games better and possibly increase season ticket sales. Each game becomes automatically more important and if you can create a competitive division with bottom 4 and top 6 all rewarded / relegated or at least involved in some sort of end of season play-offs then I think you have a much better chance of getting people to go to games regularly.
As I said earlier - its really difficult to get a floating supporter to come to so many games.
Also we need to truncate the season. 8 months should be more than enough to run a full league and cup programme. The A league in Australia runs from August to February - and they play 30 league games! Weather is less of an issue there but we don't get enough of a chance to push our product as we are competing with too many other sports. We need to shorten up our season, to give the games more importance, which can push them up the ladder at the sportsdesk.
The changes mooted in OP will only have minimum effects.
All the biggest crowds at Turners Cross for games I ever went to was due to the importance of the game at hand, not the weather, the pitch, the facilities or the time of year. The problem the FAI have is making the league and the games relevant - adjusting the season and the number of teams will change nothing.
I dont care what they do as long as they dont decide to start the league in say march have a two week break in july and finish in Nov ,now that would be silly.
We weren't without postponements ourselves, but I don't recall it being that much worse than the start or end of the season now.Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
As I suggested earlier, I don't think it's about justifying the change back anymore, it's about justifying the continuation of the experiment of summer football. It won't be the silver bullet to move back to a winter season, but if it got us back to where we were it would be a start.
Crowds are down, especially during the height of summer when the weather is best.
European progress has been minimal and can be tied to other factors, and there are no tangible benefits for the league anyway.
Has the football really been better, especially since economic realities have kicked in and budgets have gone down?
Is the leagues competition really the UK leagues or is it other leisure/ sporting activities which are more prevalent in the summer? Attendances suggest the latter.
For a league at the highest level, I think 30 games would be about right. Not all sides will be involved in the Setanta Cup and all the other cups for all the rounds of them. Anything less than 30 is more Intermediate/Junior level.Quote:
Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid
WHY ? Still haven't told us why ?Quote:
Originally Posted by legendz
I've never understood why the season is so long.
Clubs find it hard to generate any revenue during the off season, the longer the off season the more chance there is for people to take in interest in something else and not bother coming back too. The structure of the league, the length of the season and whether it's Winter or Summer are all miles down on the list of serious issues. If clubs don't sort out facilities and continue to work on becoming community centred then they'll all just struggle on as before regardless.
If I could add a word on the proposals for the size of the league. This year, you may have heard the Welsh Premier switched to a 12-team format. I've watched a few games in my local area when there's been no clash with Swansea or I have a free night. I've also watched many games from before, when the Welsh Premier had 18 teams. My early opinion of the change is that it's resulted in a much higher standard of football.
I've seen a few games this year, and most of them have been excellent by WPL standards. I've watched games like Neath v TNS and Neath v Bala Town, Port Talbot v Aberystwyth and Llanelli v Neath. The standard has been better because you don't have so many small teams who are realistically not going to qualify for Europe and so take no financial risks and sign lower quality players. This season has been great so far, also crowds at Neath have been much higher than before (upwards of 800 on average) although that isn't repeated across the league and probably has something to do with the fact that lots of SCFC fans have gone down to watch Lee Trundle (who's still absolutely brilliant to watch in a game and is definitely worth the entrance fee of £7).
I remember games in the past when I'd go and watch absolutely dire affairs between Afan Lido and Welshpool Town and wonder what I was doing there when I could have been sitting at home watching Sky Sports or whatever. So far, I've not seen any poor games. If it keeps this up, the switch to a smaller league will definitely have been a good thing for the Welsh Premier.
Clubs shouldn't be able to generate any revenue during the off-season, clubs need to find a way to become sustainable by generating revenues, during the season to sustain them during the off season.Quote:
Originally Posted by passinginterest
I'm arguing that clubs have a better chance of doing that year on year if the season is shorter. The amount of games we have at the moment is draining interest in the league - not increasing it. If, for example, a club can sell 500 season tickets for a 13 games league season - thats better than 250 season tickets for an 18 /20 games season. Bit of a simple way of looking at it, but the general point still stands. Make the games more important and more people will take an interest.
That was the logic that was used to justify the 10 team league here. Not sure it's followed through to better football. Also, the top of the first would be pretty competitive in the premier imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cymro
A lot of people mentioning Limerick as part of their sixteen in here ie there's an awful lot of Premier Division fans who haven't been to Jackman Park!! :)
Despite having everything nice and rosy off the pitch, we are in no fit state to be entering an expanded Premier should it happen imo. Personally I'd much rather see us stay down in a rubbish First Division for a year and win that while sorting a ground out, build up a bit of momentum.
Summer football definitely kills us at times, if the weather is fine of a weekend half our fanbase tend to take off to Kilkee. Having said that I remember manys the wonderful traditional winter afternoon watching Tarzan O'Brien or Andy Myler put three or four past us infront of 100 cold souls.
I think Europe and the pitches are red herrings. Most of the "progress" in Europe was achieved by clubs who were spending beyond their means. Shamrock Rovers are duking it out for the Premier Division title playing a brand of football which seems to involve as little contact with the pitch as possible.
Some off the top of my head suggestions to make a 16 team league interesting (feel free to shoot down):
Have your winter break from November to Febuary but have two sets of derby fixtures around Stephens Day and New Years.
Top get champions league, second get Europa, third to sixth playoff to decide second Europa spot.
Bottom get relegated, 12th to 15th playoff to decide who will end up in playoff with second team in First Division.
That should keep most teams with something to play for up to the end.
Wouldn't have disagreed too much up to here - there should be more movement between the leagues. Part of the problem is it's so hard to get out of the first. This leads to clubs spending too much to survive in the premier and spending too much to attempt to get out. Should be at least 3 down from a 16 team premier, imo, to avoid clubs feeling the need to overspend too much. Could still have survival play off's for the final place though to keep the interest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lim till i die
Even Better.
Bottom two go down, 11th to 14th playoff to decided playoff place!! :)
As a Limerick fan, I HEAR you about the difficulty of getting out of the First, but the only issue here is could you justify two definite and potentially three teams coming up from a (lets be honest pretty p!ss poor) ten team first division, which is what the first division would be for the forseeable if this went ahead*
*Say first year for arguments sake:
Limerick
Longford
Athlone
Wexford
Salthill
Mervue
Tralee Dynamos
Cobh Ramblers
FC Carlow??
Castlebar??
You left out the demoted Bohs
:)
I genuinely think they'll be alright if its a sixteen (and possibly if its a ten if they win the league.)
Of the six current First Division clubs mentioned there I don't think any of them would be a better bet than even an FC Bohemian of Dublin 2010 Rovers to be honest.
Any scheduled fixture between November and March was a maybe if you were to play at Ballybofey. Even halfway in Monaghan on teh day, you could never be certain, drizzle could call the game off..Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
Part of what makes it p!ss poor is that most teams could pretty much write off the season before it started as they had no hope of promotion. I know it kind of goes against my theory of not overspending to get out, but clubs can also go the opposite if they don't see a realistic chance at the start of the season. Certainly it contributes to the dismal crowds. 6th probably wouldn't get through the play off's, but it's enough to have that chance to generate interest and generate crowds, which then feeds into the team.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lim till i die
Maybe one reason crowds are down this season are all the games held on a Monday evening, the few on a Tuesday and some even on a Thursday.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
In Europe our co effieicents have jumped from the placings of 50's into now the 30's, thats some improvement, and at least LOI teams now get past the first round (longford withstanding)
As for summer activities. Well if you are prepared to give up a LOI game and go and watch rubbish gah or stupid concerts then what the hell do we care. Im sure a cold winters evening would also be a no-no for the same type of person. Excuses excuses excuses, changing to winter football wont see a huge jump in crowds.
I think a 16 team prem is great though
Seriously? :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by bennocelt
I agree with truncating the duration of the league: 30 league matches at 30 weekends, with a few extra weeks for the FAI cup seems feasible, and allows for a mid-season break. And I would do away with play-offs entirely: final positions should be decided when the league is over, not by play-offs, firstly within and ultimately between divisions, which are more like cup ties tagged on at the end and as like as not to be settled like a cup-tie - by a stroke of bad luck. In a 16 team division, I’d prefer to see two down, two up. I’d suggest three, but until there’s a clearer view of what teams would be in the first division, it might be a step too far for the third-placed team and harm them in the long run.
As to whether I prefer summer or winter soccer, like the seasons I blow hot and cold! Both have their attractions; both have their detractions. But blaming balmy summer nights in Bray, or sleet and snow in Sligo for poor attendances just gives me the impression (again) that some clubs and the league need to stop looking for excuses for their promotional deficiencies, get off their collectives asses and fight for custom. Ten teams, sixteen teams; teams from “the provinces” or only from the Pale; pyramids or ever decreasing circles – it’s all tinkering at the edges if the basic marketing and public relations efforts are missing.
A playoff between the Premier and first division makes sense, because those teams haven't already had the chance to prove themselves against each other over a 30+ game season, but I agree that internal playoffs are a bit unfair. Galway have earned the right to finish ahead of Bray over 34 games so far, so it doesn't seem right to decide the entire season on one game at Terryland. That said, if Bray can win that, I'll be a very happy, very drunk boy that evening!
I’m a old romantic and traditionalist so my heart will always favour winter football it’s what I was brought up on, cold nights, avalanches in the shed when we scored, soup to warm me up as a nipper then cider as a teen, bouncing around, great atmospheres, but when you look back at thing the always seem better. So when I take off my rose tinted glasses I only have to think back to that horrible horrible nightmare back in Tallaght stadium last November, wind and rain coming from all sides we were in the East stand still got soaked.
Honestly I can’t see there been much differences in drop offs in attendances we have now in June/July/August then what will happen on wet miserable nights in winter. Because what will happen is fickle fans will look out the window on a wet night and say “Ah it’s only UCD I’m not going out in that, I’ll stay in and watch X Factor with the bird” So just changing it for the sake of changing it is pointless because there is no magic solution to the problems of the LOI. Every second year something is changed to little effect.
Another thing people argue in favour of summer football is it helps clubs in Europe, personally I don’t think Europe should be but on a pedestal. This dream of European glory is one of the biggest downfalls of our league. Just look at Drogs, Bohs, Shels, Cork, Derry to see the result of chasing this dream, then you had smaller clubs playing catch up and running into problems too. I think building a sustainable future with solid foundations in each clubs local community is the only way forward. If you win in Europe it’s a bonus but should never be the priority.
No matter what new gimmick is tried it won’t change much overall the only thing that can improve the league is clubs getting out into their own communities and attracting more fans through the gates. Money is tight now but improving facilities for supporters is very important to attracting new supporters or making the more fickle fans come back more often.
I am in favour of a 16 team league the buzz of only playing the big clubs at home knowing it’s only guaranteed once in the league will make those nights special, trips to Cork, Derry, Waterford will make it feel more like a league of Ireland then the current Dublin district league. The amount of times we’ve played Pats, Bohs and Shams this year makes it a bit diluted it doesn’t have the same buzz to it.
Edit: Having 16 team league should bring a end to mid week games something I hate with a passion
Mid-season breaks are a balls too.
That is all.
If the FAI are running the league now, and not the clubs, doesn't that mean that they will have the final say on the structure of the league? It really doesn't matter what votes the clubs take. The FAI will make the decision at the end of the day surely???
I'd imagine the FAI will have the final say but they have to take on board what the clubs want. Their was an ideal view by the Genesis report for example that a 10 team Premier was the way to go but in practice it hasn't been that attractive and a having clubs only meeting twice would appear better. They'll have to be careful though, the league can't always keep chopping and changing.
The first division most likely will be a 10 club division with a 36 game season. With 6 games more than the Premier, the room is there for 6 group games in a league cup. It'd be Premier clubs only at first but in time if the first division expanded to 16, the league cup could expand from 16 to 32 giving first division sides more bigger games as well.
As I mentioned last week, based on current status and 2 or 4 clubs being brought up from the A Championship to join Division One, the league could look like:
Premier Division (16)
Bohemians ... Champions League
Shamrock Rovers .. Europa League play-off
Sligo Rovers .. Europa League play-off
St Patricks Athletic .. Europa League play-off
Sporting Fingal FC .. Europa League play-off
Dundalk
UCD
Galway United
Bray Wanderers
Drogheda United
Derry City
Monaghan United
Waterford United
Shelbourne .. Relegation/Promotion play-off
Limerick 37 FC .. Relegation
Cork City FORAS .. Relegation
Division One (8 or 10)
Wexford Youths .. Promotion
Finn Harps .. Promotion
Longford Town .. Relegation/Promotion play-off
Athlone Town
Mervue United
Salthill Devon
Cobh Ramblers
FC Carlow
Tralee Dynamos
Castlebar Celtic .. Relegation/Promotion play-off
I know it's debatable bringing in EL play-offs and separately giving a European place to the League Cup but I think with a final in the Aviva, it would be a good move and boost the competition. With cup winners most likely to come from the top 5, 6th and 7th would most likely be included in the EL play-offs in the model above.
The real question for me is how much the FAI will have to fudge to get 16 clubs Premier licences.
I've always preferred a 16 team Premier, and summer soccer, so I'm divided on the details, but I really detest the semi-annual shake-up.
Bald Student (or Student Mullet, I forget) won Post of the Month years ago with a post along the lines of "The number of teams in the Premier division is changing at the end of the season. That should fix any remaining problems we have."
Well this year tehre were 13 clubs with premier licences, 12 premier plus Monaghan. I think Shels had one last year so they should be able to get back to that standard you'd imagine, Derry probably won't have a problem and we're applying for one too so must have some confidence in the ability to get one.Quote:
Originally Posted by John83
That's 16. Of course there's the possibility some that had them this year won't retain them and they will probably try to get Limerick up to the standard as they're likely to be in the position to go into a 16team.
There could be a slight amount of fudge but I don't think it would be anything that would stop them
Actually it's the "excuse" of people that would've been semi-regular when it was winter. In my own case, we've far more family activities (not rubbish GAA or stupid concerts :rolleyes: ) over the summer months that make it harder to get to games (admittedly with a 3.5-4 hour round trip), but I'm hardly unique in family taking priority. In a couple of years the kids will be at an age that threads, well threads up until this one it seems, used to be crying out for clubs to get active in attracting.Quote:
Originally Posted by bennocelt
I doubt winter football will lead to a huge jump in crowds, but if it got us back to where we were before the switch it would be a start.
There's 10 premier teams, so 3 first division clubs have a premier licence (including Longford iirc).Quote:
Originally Posted by micls
Going a bit loopy :) Forgot it was only 10 in the premier!Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
The rest of the post was right thought - there's several things that aren't needed for the first division licence that are easily sorted for the premier division licence (such as CPO's). The stuff that is harder, such as infrastructure, is already fudge central for a number of existing premier teams.Quote:
Originally Posted by micls
No... no, bold Longford fan. You're not allowed talk about anything to do with Europe ever again, okay? Or at least another 10 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Acornvilla
Seriously a move from summer football would be a very bad regression for a whole host of reasons. I think Jicked nailed them on the first page of this thread. There's just too many negatives for the one positive of "a better atmosphere in the dark".
And others like Macy and Shedendinvis have offered pretty compelling arguments why summer has proven not to work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buller
Jicked, and you, haven't outlined any reasons. It was "inventive" and lead to some unspecified "good results" seems to be the sum total of reasons Jicked gave. I'm not sure how "the weather is better" is a justified argument (despite the evidence contradicting the impact of that), and "the atmosphere being better in the dark" isn't?Quote:
Originally Posted by Buller
You dont need a CPO to get a Premier Licence, it was one of the benefits of having a Premier Licence that the FAI will part fund your CPO.
Yes but there haven't been many compelling arguments as to why winter football will work. All I've seen so far is how it would be great to watch matches under the lights. The people who don't want to go to matches and waste a nice summer evening are the same people who would rather sit at home and watch the tv on a cold winter evening.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
The league needs a lot of work in other areas and changing the season the league is played in isn't going to improve things.
There's been no compelling arguments as to why either would work. That's the whole problem. People on both sides are saying their side is better, but as it stands, the move is headless and won't do much either way.
I think the amount of coverage the league receives is a pretty compelling argument to be honest. It's perfectly clear that LoI gets more attention in the Irish press in the summer months when entire pull-out souvenir editions are being rolled out if Rooney picks his nose.
The League gets more press coverage, there are more games on TV during the summer months when broadcasters are looking for live sport to show (and no chance of UEFA CL stopping LoI games being shown on TV), this raises the profile of the league and makes it more desirable for advertisers to associate with the League.
Now I understand that the above doesn't necessarily have much of an impact on say Mervue, Salthill or even some smaller Premier Division teams who won't feature much on TV or in the press, but it does bring money in to the league and keep the profile up. That should be commended and encouraged, instead of letting small-mindedness mean Salthill have a say in when the league is played because Mrs Donnelly does the bingo on a Friday in the summer and wouldn't be able to run the fizzy drink stall.
Is it clear? Not to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jicked
the LOI was actually off air throughout the summer months. The busy periods for Live TV has been the start and end of the seasons (the two that would make it part of the winter season)Quote:
The League gets more press coverage, there are more games on TV during the summer months when broadcasters are looking for live sport to show (and no chance of UEFA CL stopping LoI games being shown on TV), this raises the profile of the league and makes it more desirable for advertisers to associate with the League.
Patronise much? Clubs like Sligo have come out in favour of the winter season. Clubs like Salthill have sid nothing. And DOn't forget that 4 years ago you were at the level that Slathill is nowQuote:
That should be commended and encouraged, instead of letting small-mindedness mean Salthill have a say in when the league is played because Mrs Donnelly does the bingo on a Friday in the summer and wouldn't be able to run the fizzy drink stall.