SARI Press Statement concerning Ndo Incident

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by joeSoap

For me, Jason McGuinness is a professional footballer. An individual that is a supposed role model for young Bohs fans, and one who makes his living the same way that Joseph Ndo does. He racially abused, and was individually punished for his behaviour. And deservedly so. I thought Bohemians acted swiftly, and accordingly.

Shamrock Rovers, its players and officials, did not racially abuse Joseph Ndo. People, racists included, voluntarily support clubs, and it is impossible to stop them. You can try and identify these goons and ban them from the ground, but whats to stop them from from doing it in other ways, via internet, down the pub etc.

---

That's exactly it. Demanding Rovers board publically react to the actions of a tiny, tiny minority doing a stupid act not in the name of the club is like expecting Derry's board to send out a press-release telling everyone how they dislike attacks on oppositions supporters buses by their clubs. Or Dundalk's board commenting on every stone throwing incident outside Oriel Park. When it's half of the Brandywell rioting mid-game yes there should be a public comment, or if Sean Connors starts fecking plastic coke bottles in to the visiting Bohs supporters again public action should be commented on. If its 5 or 6 gurriers who happen to be at the game then there's no need for public flagellation for the sake of rival fans trying to score points, rather they should do whats necessary to sort out those handful of scumbags.

Also, whats up with MK Rovers? Can't say I get that one...it's hard to keep up with all the cringeworthy new attempted nicknames Bohs are trying out this year, MSNRFC is my personal fave, way better than Wicklow FC which doesn't really work sadly.

At what stage can anything ever be proved, given the level of evidence you seem to require?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jicked

That's exactly it. Demanding Rovers board publically react to the actions of a tiny, tiny minority doing a stupid act not in the name of the club is like expecting Derry's board to send out a press-release telling everyone how they dislike attacks on oppositions supporters buses by their clubs. Or Dundalk's board commenting on every stone throwing incident outside Oriel Park. .

---

The emboldened word highlights the difference.

Clubs are responsible for what goes on inside the ground.

Your argument is completely invalidated by the banning orders a number of clubs in England and Scotland have enforced against individual fans for racist or other anti-social behaviour.

Stop passing the buck.

I'm not passing the buck.
If the guys were identified I'm sure they'd be given life time bans. It doesn't seem that they were identified. So therefore Rovers should sit down with their fans, matchday staff, FAI matchday observer and Gardaí and work out why they weren't identified and how to ensure they are identified and removed from the ground in future.
Rovers already gave a life ban to a guy earlier in the season who hit another fan during a game, using CCTV footage to find and identify him.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jicked

a tiny, tiny minority

---

I only hear one voice on that clip. One too many, but only one all the same.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Calcio Jack

Agree we could go around forever in a circle on this.To answer your question I simply don't know whether it did or didn't happen, therefore no point in engaging in conjecture as to what the club or the FAI should do.

---

So lets all forget about it and move on ? Not exactly in line with the "no tolerance of racism" policy supposedly supported by the FAI. More of a "Racism is OK as long as we deny we heard it" policy for Tallaght ?

I disagree with those seeking points deductions (as I have said) but cannot agree that sweeping it under the carpet is acceptable either. The fact that SRFC did not repudiate racist comments before is quite probobly a factor in them reacurring (especially as the same player is involved).
Ironically had SRFC board come out and condemed those involved when it happened even the most rabit anti Hoop could not have made an issue of it (however hard we tried :)). Any damage to SRFC reputation caused is by the inactivity of the board on the matter, I agree no club can be responsible for a few morons but clubs have a responsibility to make clear their stance on the matter.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jicked

I'm not passing the buck.
If the guys were identified I'm sure they'd be given life time bans. It doesn't seem that they were identified. So therefore Rovers should sit down with their fans, matchday staff, FAI matchday observer and Gardaí and work out why they weren't identified and how to ensure they are identified and removed from the ground in future.
Rovers already gave a life ban to a guy earlier in the season who hit another fan during a game, using CCTV footage to find and identify him.

---

Why are you so sure? Have SRFC said so? Nobody seems to know what SRFC's position is on racism inside their ground? Thats the whole point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jicked

I'm not passing the buck.
If the guys were identified I'm sure they'd be given life time bans. It doesn't seem that they were identified. So therefore Rovers should sit down with their fans, matchday staff, FAI matchday observer and Gardaí and work out why they weren't identified and how to ensure they are identified and removed from the ground in future.
Rovers already gave a life ban to a guy earlier in the season who hit another fan during a game, using CCTV footage to find and identify him.

---

Fair enough if they do try and identify them, but I didn't get the impression the club had (i.e. lack of a statement asking for help in identifying the individuals in question).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EnglishSource

I only hear one voice on that clip. One too many, but only one all the same.

---

Of course it's one too many, and the club should sort it out. But there's no need for a primetime investigation and the club chairman doing a weepy mea culpa on youtube on the back of a handful of people. Instead it should be sorted out to ensure that the few scumbags don't do it again, which presumably is what Rovers are doing rather than issuing a statement for the benefit of no-one but for Sheridan to pin up on his wall and crack one out over.

The logical contortions here are getting ever more tortuous here, it's actually becoming embarrassing. Punishing clubs rather than individuals (especially where individuals can't be identified) is the norm. Google "racist chanting" "behind closed doors" or "fine" for confirmation.

Here's a random example from 2003 I grabbed in a cursory search.

Quote:

---

The Macedonian F.A was fined £11,000 for the racist Chanting and abuse Black England players suffered, and the burning of a St George's Cross

Serbia & Montenegro have been fined £11,000 "for the racist conduct of its supporters" during last August's match against Wales and the under-21 side.

Uefa has also fined the Bosnian FA £13,000 for their fans' chanting racist abuse during the match against Norway on 6 September

---

The thread was full of people complaining that the fines were unjustified.

It was from a white nationalist website.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jicked

That's exactly it. Demanding Rovers board publically react to the actions of a tiny, tiny minority doing a stupid act not in the name of the club is like expecting Derry's board to send out a press-release telling everyone how they dislike attacks on oppositions supporters buses by their clubs. Or Dundalk's board commenting on every stone throwing incident outside Oriel Park. When it's half of the Brandywell rioting mid-game yes there should be a public comment, or if Sean Connors starts fecking plastic coke bottles in to the visiting Bohs supporters again public action should be commented on. If its 5 or 6 gurriers who happen to be at the game then there's no need for public flagellation for the sake of rival fans trying to score points, rather they should do whats necessary to sort out those handful of scumbags.

Also, whats up with MK Rovers? Can't say I get that one...it's hard to keep up with all the cringeworthy new attempted nicknames Bohs are trying out this year, MSNRFC is my personal fave, way better than Wicklow FC which doesn't really work sadly.

---

Incidents occuring INSIDE rounds are a slightly different matter to incidents happening OUTSIDE grounds (where I accept clubs have little or no control) - your example indicate even you see the difference.

RE MK Hoops it refers to the origins of the club - but cant expand here or will run foul of the Mods (again !). MNSRFC is from the Bohs message board I think and refers to alledged bias in favour of Wickla's finest on MNS. Havn't heard Wicklow FC used round Dalyer where is it from ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sheridan

The reason SARI described it as alleged abuse was that I did the same in the description, out of an abundance of ultra-objectivity.

---

http://foot.ie/forums/showpost.php?p...&postcount=126

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CMcC

Why are you so sure? Have SRFC said so? Nobody seems to know what SRFC's position is on racism inside their ground? Thats the whole point.

---

Actually their policy is very clearly stated here:
http://www.shamrockrovers.ie/about/r...discrimination

Outside of this website the incident has not gotten any coverage in the national media, the wider public are oblivious. If Shamrock Rovers issued a statement the only possible effect I can see is to placate some of the louder protestors on here, other than that it would just be negative publicity for the league. If this was a serious incident of sustained or even clearly audible abuse it would have been widely reported by now (the national media have never needed an excuse for negative publicity on the league of Ireland), as it is there has been no official complaints made, by the allegedly abused player, his club, the FAI or the Gardaí.
I'm sure Rovers will be reinforcing their stance on racism at the next game and will be continuing their work with show racism the red card, as everyone agrees racism is abhorrent in all it's forms. I still don't see how a statement from Rovers would help matters. I'm sure if the culprit/s can be identified they will be banned and when this happens I'm sure a press release will issue to show that the club is actively combating racism.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CMcC

Why are you so sure? Have SRFC said so? Nobody seems to know what SRFC's position is on racism inside their ground? Thats the whole point.

---

You don't know their position on racism in the ground? See this is where it's clearly people wanting Rovers to look bad in the media. You do know Rovers position on racism in the ground, don't be stupid.

Like I said there was a serious enough fight/assault at a Rovers game in Tolka earlier this season, the club didn't have to go on the Joe Duffy show to decry the event, or ensure that it was sorted or beg for forgiveness. It's ridiculous to think that the actions of one scumbag was some sort of green light from the Board for such actions to take place at Rovers games. Instead the board went about sorting the problem. In that case the guy was identifiable through CCTV in surrounding areas outside the ground, and he was found and given a life ban.

As far as I know there was no CCTV in the stand that night against Bohs, no doubt partly because building work had only been finished the day before on the completed stand. In that case it'll be up to Rovers to have words with their gardaí, stewards about how to stop this in future at the regular meetings Rovers board has with local police with whom they have an excellent relationship. Sorting out three or four scumbags doesn't require
a PR offensive or the club to be disbanded, despite what some Bohs, Sligo and Dublin City fans would like. It's not a widespread problem, and Rovers will take action to ensure that it doesn't become so, by working with Gardai, fans groups and matchday staff in identifying and ejecting for good anyone caught doing that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EnglishSource

http://foot.ie/forums/showpost.php?p...&postcount=126

---

You know, most people who made a post like that would want to destroy the evidence, not bring it to a wider audience.

I didn't isolate the incident in the game, someone else posted a timestamp of when it occurred and I went back to verify it and then captured and uploaded the evidence. I did it because it was the SECOND time this season that a racist incident involving Shamrock Rovers and Joseph Ndo had occurred, and the second time that an attempt had been made to sweep it under the carpet. Only this time there was evidence.

I have been campaigning against racism, sexism and all forms of prejudice my whole life. When an allegation of racism was made against a Dublin City player after a friendly against Bray, I personally brought it up with the club in my role with the supporters club (and was told that there was no evidence, so no action would be taken. Several witnesses heard the remark, and I'm happy to say that the perpetrator got a slap from the victim in return.)

PS: If that boycott of foot.ie only applies to posts which aren't completely idiotic, I'm happy to confirm that it's still in place.

1) Racist abuse of Darren Mansaram
2) Racist chanting about Joey Ndo
3) Racist abuse of Joey Ndo

no problems here folks!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SkStu

1) Racist abuse of Darren Mansaram
2) Racist chanting about Joey Ndo
3) Racist abuse of Joey Ndo

no problems here folks!

---

When Rovers fans get jailed for attacking a pub based on the racial background of it's clientele, then you can take the moral high ground.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sheridan

You know, most people who made a post like that would want to destroy the evidence, not bring it to a wider audience.

I didn't isolate the incident in the game, someone else posted a timestamp of when it occurred and I went back to verify it and then captured and uploaded the evidence. I did it because it was the SECOND time this season that a racist incident involving Shamrock Rovers and Joseph Ndo had occurred, and the second time that an attempt had been made to sweep it under the carpet. Only this time there was evidence.

I have been campaigning against racism, sexism and all forms of prejudice my whole life. When an allegation of racism was made against a Dublin City player after a friendly against Bray, I personally brought it up with the club in my role with the supporters club (and was told that there was no evidence, so no action would be taken. Several witnesses heard the remark, and I'm happy to say that the perpetrator got a slap from the victim in return.)

PS: If that boycott of foot.ie only applies to posts which aren't completely idiotic, I'm happy to confirm that it's still in place.

---

You know why you uploaded the clip to you tube, I know why you did it, and so does everyone else. You've a sick obsession with Shamrock Rovers thats been proved time and time again.

Yeah, when Rovers fans get jailed for attacking a pub based on the racial background of its clientele and the supporters rally round and pay for the damage to be repaired instead of burying their heads in the sand and denying it ever happened...you can see where this is going.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SkStu

1) Racist abuse of Darren Mansaram
2) Racist chanting about Joey Ndo
3) Racist abuse of Joey Ndo

no problems here folks!

---

Ugh, whats the point, I'm done with this thread.

Racist comments will be made in every ground in the country, sadly there's not a lot that can be done about that. It happens in Dalyer, it'll happen in Tallaght and will happen at every other ground. I've twice heard Harpal Singh being given racist abuse by fans of one particular club (not Rovers) but to say that it's part of a systemic racial problem at the club is laughable. When it's thousands, hundreds or even dozens involved in the abuse then you can expect clubs to be held responsible, when it's ignorant comments shouted by an unidentifiable knuckle dragging moron then it's not. I think I've made some pretty reasonable points throughout this thread, there's no point continuing if Sheridan is going to compare us to a Neo-Nazi group, fans of Bohs/Sligo/Sheridan are going to say Rovers don't have an anti-racism policy (despite dedicating pages in their programme and website to it, reading out an anti-racism message before kick-off and being involved in numerous anti-racism community programmes) and if you're now trying to suggest that there is a widespread and continous racism problem at Rovers.
That simply isn't the case, and you know it.

Like I said this is getting ridiculous so I'm not going to bother make the same sensible points again in the face of ridiculous comments/provocation from the usual parties.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by passinginterest

Actually their policy is very clearly stated here:
http://www.shamrockrovers.ie/about/r...discrimination

Outside of this website the incident has not gotten any coverage in the national media, the wider public are oblivious. If Shamrock Rovers issued a statement the only possible effect I can see is to placate some of the louder protestors on here, other than that it would just be negative publicity for the league. If this was a serious incident of sustained or even clearly audible abuse it would have been widely reported by now (the national media have never needed an excuse for negative publicity on the league of Ireland), as it is there has been no official complaints made, by the allegedly abused player, his club, the FAI or the Gardaí.
I'm sure Rovers will be reinforcing their stance on racism at the next game and will be continuing their work with show racism the red card, as everyone agrees racism is abhorrent in all it's forms. I still don't see how a statement from Rovers would help matters. I'm sure if the culprit/s can be identified they will be banned and when this happens I'm sure a press release will issue to show that the club is actively combating racism.

---

Perhaps you could let us know WHAT action(s) SRFC took after the racial abuse that occurred at Dalymount earlier in the season ? If your point is to be accepted then clearly the club would have taken some action after the earlier incident (it would benifit SRFC if they let people know they took action). unfortunately I suggest no such action occurred and the result of sweeping it under the carpet was the repitition that happened in Tallaght.
the fact is this is not a first offence and to date SRFC have done nothing to distance themselves from what happened (except of course for some fans to attemp deny it happened or blame fans of other clubs).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Calcio Jack

Agree we could go around forever in a circle on this.To answer your question I simply don't know whether it did or didn't happen, therefore no point in engaging in conjecture as to what the club or the FAI should do.

---

So to help you decide whether or not it happened - for the third time, what level of proof do you want/need here ?

A time machine to teleport you back so you can stand in the crowd and hear/see if for yourself perhaps...? :confused:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

So to help you decide whether or not it happened - for the third time, what level of proof do you want/need here ?

A time machine to teleport you back so you can stand in the crowd and hear/see if for yourself perhaps...? :confused:

---

"there is none so blind as those that will not see" :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EnglishSource

When Rovers fans get jailed for attacking a pub based on the racial background of it's clientele, then you can take the moral high ground.

---

Touché!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

So to help you decide whether or not it happened - for the third time, what level of proof do you want/need here ?

A time machine to teleport you back so you can stand in the crowd and hear/see if for yourself perhaps...? :confused:

---

I thought I'd already answered this.... I've stated that until there is proof provided that is of a factual nature that can't be disputed then this is nothing but conjecture etc.... it's not up to me to decide what format proof should take rather it's up to those who are making claims that Ndo was abused to provide statements information etc. to the Gardai/authorities who can then decide if there is anything to investigate .... thus far IMO they have failed to do that in relation to the alleged incident.

Quote:

---

When Rovers fans get jailed for attacking a pub based on the racial background of it's clientele, then you can take the moral high ground.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by theneutral

Touché!!!

---

erm, not really, much as you would like to think so oh neutral one.

Again, the actions of a tiny minority (sound familiar) of the bohs fans that travelled that we, as a club and fanbase, were hauled over the coals for. The perpetrators got their punishment, and rightly so.

The vast majority of decent fans did a collection for the pub owner in conjunction with the club who, themselves, condemned this incident outright.

And just to add that religious or political affiliation is not a race.

Touche? Whatever.

Quote:

---

Racist comments will be made in every ground in the country, sadly there's not a lot that can be done about that. It happens in Dalyer, it'll happen in Tallaght and will happen at every other ground. I've twice heard Harpal Singh being given racist abuse by fans of one particular club (not Rovers) but to say that it's part of a systemic racial problem at the club is laughable. When it's thousands, hundreds or even dozens involved in the abuse then you can expect clubs to be held responsible, when it's ignorant comments shouted by an unidentifiable knuckle dragging moron then it's not. I think I've made some pretty reasonable points throughout this thread, there's no point continuing if Sheridan is going to compare us to a Neo-Nazi group, fans of Bohs/Sligo/Sheridan are going to say Rovers don't have an anti-racism policy (despite dedicating pages in their programme and website to it, reading out an anti-racism message before kick-off and being involved in numerous anti-racism community programmes) and if you're now trying to suggest that there is a widespread and continous racism problem at Rovers.
That simply isn't the case, and you know it.

Like I said this is getting ridiculous so I'm not going to bother make the same sensible points again in the face of ridiculous comments/provocation from the usual parties.

---

i wont stand by and let Calcio Jack assert that there is no evidence of this incident occurring, or let Rovers fans imply that this was a one off that should be ignored. Regardless of the intelligence or sensibility of your posts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Calcio Jack

I thought I'd already answered this.... I've stated that until there is proof provided that is of a factual nature that can't be disputed then this is nothing but conjecture etc.... it's not up to me to decide what format proof should take rather it's up to those who are making claims that Ndo was abused to provide statements information etc. to the Gardai/authorities who can then decide if there is anything to investigate .... thus far IMO they have failed to do that in relation to the alleged incident.

---

Your'e still not answering the question though.

What "proof of a factual nature" can there be for something that a collection of individuals allegedly did/said in the past ? All there can be is witnesses and recordings of the said incident - both of which appear to exist.

Beyond those, what other type of factual proof are you expecting there to be ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Your'e still not answering the question though.

What "proof of a factual nature" can there be for something that a collection of individuals allegedly did/said in the past ? All there can be is witnesses and recordings of the said incident - both of which appear to exist.

Beyond those, what other type of factual proof are you expecting there to be ?

---

I have answered it perhaps not to your satifaction but that's my answer... I'm not an investigator a prosecutor or a judge... we have what's known as due process and factual proof provided by that process is what is required,it's not up to me or any other citizen to choose to bypass that process...albeit some here appear to think that's ok.

I think this one's going round in circles at this stage. People have drawn what conclusions they will, and further debate won't change it. Thread closed, if only so I don't have to keep an eye on it any more. :)