Dave Rogers Sacked

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Originally Posted by eelmonster

Eh? It was Dundalk who went down to ten men, Rogers was sent off for flashing his arse, remember.

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Yes it was, still, losing to St.Pat's at home is still rubbish, we should know.
I'll shut up now. :D

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Originally Posted by John83

To be fair, I kind of doubt his version of events was ever going to sway their decision, whether you subscribe to the cynical cost-cutting theory or not.

That said, not informing him sounds lousy - unless he means his agent was informed by their solicitor or something, in which case he needs to grow up (more so).

Regardless, not calling him in to discuss it could be technically against some labour law, which might give him his day in court.

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Thats not the point you are entitled to it, you have to follow protocol when taking this type of action.

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Originally Posted by Rovers Maniac

Thats not the point you are entitled to it, you have to follow protocol when taking this type of action.

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As I noted.

There are cases where that hearing being denied an employee is a terrible injustice, resulting in an unjustified sacking. This isn't one of them.

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I briefly lowered my shorts in what I considered to be an amusing gesture.

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I have no doubt that is how Dave saw it, and I believe most (maybe even all) St Pats fans present thought it hilarious, and even more so when the red card transpired.

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With the benefit of hindsight, I can now see that what I did was unwise.

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This is a contender for the understatement of the year

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I accept that the red card was fully justified and I am personally disappointed that I let the team, the fans and my manager down in such an important match.

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Dave, you let us down very badly. You got yourself sent off, left us with 10 men, and you certainly seriously diminished our chances of 3 very important points.

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While I accept that my actions were unhelpful to my team.......

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This is getting worse......unhelpful? Are you serious or taking the **** out of us now?

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I do not believe that they were offensive.........

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Dave, your actions were enormously offensive to me and many other Dundalk fans; that you could do something so stupid to get yourself a red card. Have you any idea of the further damage that your actions have caused to the clubs worsening reputation as an indisciplined, uncaring, irresponsible team?

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I am bitterly disappointed.

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Me too Dave, me too.

For the record most Pats fans didn't find it hilarious, just mildly amusing

Red card was hilarious, granted

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Originally Posted by John83

As I noted.

There are cases where that hearing being denied an employee is a terrible injustice, resulting in an unjustified sacking. This isn't one of them.

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Rubbish talk, literally. You have no idea.

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Originally Posted by Dodge

For the record most Pats fans didn't find it hilarious, just mildly amusing

Red card was hilarious, granted

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Do most of ye want him back?

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Originally Posted by Rovers Maniac

Rubbish talk, literally. You have no idea.

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Curious. That's what your mom said.

I'd like to debate the point, but you haven't expressed one.

Perhaps you meant to say that an employee's right to have his say on an incident before being sacked is sacrosanct. I'd not argue it, beyond to say that I think it's a technicality here for which he'll get minor redress in court.

Perhaps you meant to say that you believe Rodgers's point of view might have actually held some weight in the decision. This I'd disagree with. On one hand, we have Rodgers mooning paying customers while in the uniform of his employer, costing them money (potentially, from many avenues), their good name (what's left of it), and simple embarrassment. On the other, you have him claiming, as he has to the press, that it was just banter. Given that these people have already considered the former to be a sackable offense, I'm pretty sure I know what they'd have thought of that defense.

Perhaps you meant to say that you believe that Rodgers actions are not sackable at all. I disagree, but considering my last point, I don't think it would have made any great difference regardless.

But you made none of those points, nor any others. You chose instead to call names, which says all I really need to know about you. And yes, I'll have fries with that.

As Rogers was sacked, is he allowed to sign for another club before July ?

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Originally Posted by Rovers Maniac

Rubbish talk, literally. You have no idea.

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This type of dismissive post doesn't contribute anything, except perhaps as a display of ignorance by the poster.

Why do you think his post is "rubbish" or that he has "no idea"

Perhaps this link to Ctizens Advice section on 'Fair grounds for dismissal' might help you inform your opinion

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/ca...-for-dismissal

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Gross misconduct may give rise to instant (summary) dismissal without notice or pay in lieu of notice. Examples of gross misconduct include assault, drunkenness, stealing, bullying or serious breach of your employer's policies and practices. Your contract of employment may contain further information concerning gross misconduct.

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Originally Posted by srfc1928

As Rogers was sacked, is he allowed to sign for another club before July ?

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He's a free agent now afaik.

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Originally Posted by srfc1928

As Rogers was sacked, is he allowed to sign for another club before July ?

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Yes, providing they aren't under a transfer embargo for breach of the salary cost protocol.

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Originally Posted by Dodge

For the record most Pats fans didn't find it hilarious, just mildly amusing

Red card was hilarious, granted

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Sorry Dodge, I didn't reckon on you being so humbug. I really must not veer into hyperbole in future!

John 83 states
"Perhaps you meant to say that an employee's right to have his say on an incident before being sacked is sacrosanct. I'd not argue it, beyond to say that I think it's a technicality here for which he'll get minor redress in court." ]

Two recent unfair dismissal cases where the dismissal was overturned with re-instatement and costs and damages where there were minor procedural defects in dimissing the employee
(a) A Health Care Professional striking an intellectually disabled patient across the face
(b) Leaving a central security post in a place of detention while on duty.

If Rogers statement is true he will win his case or Dundalk will settle. No doubt the PFAI will contrast this with Dundalks leniency in respect of Connor`s unprofessional behaviour in the first game of the season attempting to goad Bohs fans in the stand.(for which he got a four match ban).

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Originally Posted by srfc1928

As Rogers was sacked, is he allowed to sign for another club before July ?

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No Anto Flood was sacked by us 2 years ago for serious breach of contract and couldnt join shels til the window reopened, he did however trin with them for over a month so!

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Originally Posted by Dalymountrower

No doubt the PFAI will contrast this with Dundalks leniency in respect of Connor`s unprofessional behaviour in the first game of the season attempting to goad Bohs fans in the stand.(for which he got a four match ban).

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They could also contrasts Dundalks' swift and decisive action with Bohemians 1 week suspension for Jason McGuinness for racial abuse

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Originally Posted by Dunny

He's a free agent now afaik.

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Pretty sure he's not, otherwise clubs could conveniently 'sack' players mid season to facilitate transfers and bypass the transfer window.

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Originally Posted by John83

As I noted.

There are cases where that hearing being denied an employee is a terrible injustice, resulting in an unjustified sacking. This isn't one of them.

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Wether the sacking was justified or not may quickly become irrelevant if Dundalk didn't follow their processes correctly. Seems strange that there wasnt even a hearing (which would be practise even in a Gross Misconduct allegation or Summary Dismissal situation). On the face of it the player seems to have a valid case.
I think Dalymountrower above illustrated some recent cases that show this.
I assume he received confirmation in writing at this stage with the right to appeal noted.

This may cost Dundalk a right few bob.

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Originally Posted by Dunny

Would you ever ***** off Rico, Eoin Hand made a great point about the kids and parents at the game, and crap like that would turn them off taking them back to another game.

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Whats more damning for kids to see ,some fella dropping his kecks to flash a bit of arse (provided these kids had binoculors to see ) or some fella racially abusing a fellow professional ,and admitting to it.What message does that send out to kids...."errah its ok little seanie ,call that black fellah a m***** but dont show the cheeks of yer arse or i'll bate ye black and blue"

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Originally Posted by redgav

Whats more damning for kids to see ,some fella dropping his kecks to flash a bit of arse (provided these kids had binoculors to see ) or some fella racially abusing a fellow professional ,and admitting to it.What message does that send out to kids...."errah its ok little seanie ,call that black fellah a m***** but dont show the cheeks of yer arse or i'll bate ye black and blue"

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Dundalk didn't send out the message that racist abuse is ok though, Bohs did. (Sorry- Bohs didn't say its ok, they said its worth a one match ban.)

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Originally Posted by HulaHoop

A nice excuse for Dundalk to get a wage off the bill

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Thought the same thing myself.

[quote=Dalymountrower;1167124]John 83 states
"Perhaps you meant to say that an employee's right to have his say on an incident before being sacked is sacrosanct. I'd not argue it, beyond to say that I think it's a technicality here for which he'll get minor redress in court." ]

As someone who works in the Labour Law area I can assure all that the employee's right to defence is not sacrosanct (cases involving violence, serious misconduct etc can and do result in instant dismissal). It is however considered best practice to allow the employee a chance to defend his/her actions. Where the right to defence is bypassed the onus would be on the employer to prove why it was deemed necessary to do so. There is plenty of case law from the EAT and/or Labour Court to back up this analysis.

Were he to take a case under Contract Law (ie breach of contract by Dundalk) the club would, again, have to justify the decision to unilaterally terminate the contract.either way it seems to me that Dundalk will have a case to prove.

Oh so its ok for kids to see all the scumbag dundalk fans causing hassel after the matches home and away,lets be honest he showed a bit of his jocks end of ,its a money saving job by dundalk

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Originally Posted by disabledrog

Oh so its ok for kids to see all the scumbag dundalk fans causing hassel after the matches home and away,lets be honest he showed a bit of his jocks end of ,its a money saving job by dundalk

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Maybe I have missed some posts here - I was not aware that anyone had advocated that a hooligan element (be they from Drogheda, Dundalk or anywhere else) were "ok"!

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Originally Posted by Black and White

No Anto Flood was sacked by us 2 years ago for serious breach of contract and couldnt join shels til the window reopened, he did however trin with them for over a month so!

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What did he do?

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Originally Posted by Réiteoir

Disgraceful if true.

Rico abslutely spot on tonight on MNS about this - seems to be a wholly cynical attempt to try to lessen the wage bill

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Originally Posted by Rafa B

Thought the same thing myself.

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Originally Posted by disabledrog

.....its a money saving job by dundalk

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I find it funny (in a quirky sense) and ironic, that this line continues to be peddled (and maybe even believed by some).

While I think it improbable that there is any validity in this theory (see earlier post below, which has remained conspicously unchallenged), it is ironic that many supportors of clubs that urgently need to reduce their wage bills sieze on this as an evil.

Of course it would be wrong if this was a motivation in this case - but all the evidence points in a different direction

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Originally Posted by Ezeikial

It is entirely predictable that many non-Dundalk fans on foot.ie would chose to see to see the actions of the Dundalk board in this way.

I suggest that it might be relevant to reflect on how those most affected, (aside from Dave Rogers himself) view it. Like any opinion forum Oriel Web refects various views, but those suggesting that the sacking was motivated by a wage bill cull are in a small minority.

While facts are not necessarily well received by those who enjoy conspiracy theories and negative slants, lets have a quick review:

1) Dundalk are not in any financial crises. The specifics have already been well documented here and elsewhere already.

2) If the club need to reduce wage costs that opportunity is naturally arising as 3 players are out of contract in June.

3) It is almost certain that the club will sign additional players in July.

4) Dave Rogers is actually one of the few who have performed well for the club this season. Dundalk are woefully short of defenders.

5) There is a sweeping assumption here that Dave Rogers will not have the balance of his contract paid up. This is a strong possibility, either as a result of negotiation or legal action. It is not plausible that a board with strong business experience, would not have considered this possibility in reaching its decision.

For what it is worth, I think that the sacking is harsh and an extreme reaction to the unacceptable levels of indiscipline that have been tolerated up to now. In that sense Dave Rogers is unfortunate, but is the author of his own misfortune.

The board have shown remarkable moral courage in their decision (whether you agree or disagree with it), and jibes about the moral character of players and other jibes are trite and miss the point.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Hang on Dodge - are you claiming that players pulling moonies is a common occurence in senior league worlwide.......? :eek:

If only Drogheda had had the sense to do the same about 5yrs ago when one of their players took a **** on the edge of the Brandywell pitch iwhilst warming up.......

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check page 45 of the sun newspaper today robbie blake of burnley mooning to fans after winning promotion to preimership wonder will burnley now sack him :D:D

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Originally Posted by old git

check page 45 of the sun newspaper today robbie blake of burnley mooning to fans after winning promotion to preimership wonder will burnley now sack him :D:D

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Did he whip his slogan-emblazoned sporty y-fronts down to reveal the crack of his arse? Was he flashing said arsehole at opposition fans? Was he sent off for doing so (was he even booked)? Have Burnley had four sendings off in their last four games? Were Burnley promoted to the League of Ireland? If the answer is yes to any of the above, I can see how your post is relative to Dave Rogers' sacking.

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Originally Posted by old git

check page 45 of the sun newspaper today robbie blake of burnley mooning to fans after winning promotion to preimership wonder will burnley now sack him :D:D

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With all the premiership money they'll now get, I don't think they are in the position of needing to trim the wage bill, so they probably won't sack him.

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Originally Posted by Celdrog

With all the premiership money they'll now get, I don't think they are in the position of needing to trim the wage bill, so they probably won't sack him.

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If Dave Rogers had been celebrating post match after clinching the title (or Europa League qualification) then I doubt if there would have been a major problem either.

He wasn't, and there is!

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Originally Posted by Ezeikial

If Dave Rogers had been celebrating post match after clinching the title (or Europa League qualification) then I doubt if there would have been a major problem either.

He wasn't, and there is!

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So it wasn't the mooning that was the problem then but the fact that he got himself stupidly sent off?

Does that mean every player who gets himself stupidly sent off will now be sacked?

Also I doubt getting stupidly sent off is a legal sacking offense.

You can't have it both ways, you either sacked him because mooning is completely unacceptable(whenever it is) or you didnt.

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Originally Posted by micls

So it wasn't the mooning that was the problem then but the fact that he got himself stupidly sent off?

Does that mean every player who gets himself stupidly sent off will now be sacked?

Also I doubt getting stupidly sent off is a legal sacking offense.

You can't have it both ways, you either sacked him because mooning is completely unacceptable(whenever it is) or you didnt.

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I want to break this to you gently...........I didn't sack him

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Originally Posted by Ezeikial

I want to break this to you gently...........I didn't sack him

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No, your club did, and you've bee defending that decision.

I can hardly ask you board, given they didnt even speak to the person involved, let alone anyone else.

p.s. Im aware that in dublin and surrounding areas it may be confusing but 'you' is actually also a plural......

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Originally Posted by Ezeikial

I want to break this to you gently...........I didn't sack him

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Ooooh.. the first crack in the Dundalk propaganda machine!

Incidentally.. I still think they were justified due to the outrageous stupidity and unprofessionalism of the act.

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Originally Posted by micls

p.s. Im aware that in dublin and surrounding areas it may be confusing but 'you' is actually also a plural......

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There once was a thread on the UCD forum where various of us used the plurals youse, ye, yez and y'all (having noticed a pattern, I was taking the ****) in consecutive posts. Poor Schumi was less than pleased.

Your previous post asks people here to defend Dundalk's theoretically inconsistent behaviour in a theoretical situation. I find this mildly ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by John83

Your previous post asks people here to defend Dundalk's theoretically inconsistent behaviour in a theoretical situation. I find this mildly ridiculous.

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No. It challenges a claim made by a Dundalk fan that things would have been different had it been a different game, which makes his other claims about Dundalk being in the right completely seem contradictory.

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Originally Posted by micls

No, your club did, and you've bee defending that decision.

I can hardly ask you board, given they didnt even speak to the person involved, let alone anyone else.

p.s. Im aware that in dublin and surrounding areas it may be confusing but 'you' is actually also a plural......

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I know there is a lot going on for you/ye/yous at the moment, and will try to ignore your patronising tone.

You appear to have confused me with another poster when you say that I've been "defending" the clubs decision -

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For what it is worth, I think that the sacking is harsh and an extreme reaction to the unacceptable levels of indiscipline that have been tolerated up to now. In that sense Dave Rogers is unfortunate, but is the author of his own misfortune.

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Originally Posted by Ezeikial

You appear to have confused me with another poster when you say that I've been "defending" the clubs decision -

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Apologies, I did have you confused with another poster about defending him

However the original point still stands. Did the club sack him for the mooning(gross misconduct) or for getting sent of in an important game?

The distinction will probably be important in court, especially if the club holds the same attitude that he wouldn't have been sacked had it been another time.

I don't think Dundalk have much chance in this one.

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Originally Posted by micls

No. It challenges a claim made by a Dundalk fan that things would have been different had it been a different game, which makes his other claims about Dundalk being in the right completely seem contradictory.

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I don't want to get into semantics with you, but what I suggested was that there was quite a different context in Robbie Blake situation versus Dave Rogers.

One, a post-match celebration in the euphoric aftermath of clinching promotion. The other, a gesture towards visiting supportors in the middle of a crucial match, which put his team down to 10 men.

Perhaps you can't grasp the fundamental difference in context, and how the first may only offend good taste or the prudish, while the other resonates with supporters in an entirely different way

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Originally Posted by micls

Apologies, I did have you confused with another poster about defending him

However the original point still stands. Did the club sack him for the mooning(gross misconduct) or for getting sent of in an important game?

The distinction will probably be important in court, especially if the club holds the same attitude that he wouldn't have been sacked had it been another time.

I don't think Dundalk have much chance in this one.

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Gross Misconduct

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Following an emergency meeting of the Dundalk FC Board of Management the club have issued the following statement:

Following an incident during the Dundalk v St Patrick's Athletic match in Oriel Park on Friday night, Dave Rogers has been dismissed, with immediate effect, due to gross misconduct. The club will not tolerate this type of behaviour from any member of our squad.

The club will not be making any further comment on this issue at this time

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http://dundalkfc.com/news/090523_statement.asp

This is the only public statement to date. I doubt very much if the clubs position will be that it would have acted differently if it were "another time" Do you?????

But like I already said I do not think that consequences would have been the same if, like Robbie Blake.....(opps we've already been there)