Republic of Ireland V Poland - Wednesday, 19th November 2008 - Friendly

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Originally Posted by ken foree

we never forced their keeper into a serious save (i remember a doyle snapshot) and they shoulda been 3-0 up by the time we clawed something back late on. they were dominant as their play had far more cohesion, quality and (not least) style, no matter what our number of sporadic chances that fell to duff. non-stats-wise they simply outclassed us. i confess i'd rather poland win that game handily as reward for the way they set about playing their football. we were ugly, sorry.

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I totally agree that Poland were the far superior side last night. You can count chances and produce stats til the cows come home but at the end of it the Poles looked a far more accomplished side. Stats are sometimes interesting but they don't give the full picture or anywhere near it. Did anybody else hear Andy Gray saying on Saturday that u can tell if a team is on top or not by the amount of injury time that is played....what rubbish!!! Twas during the Bolton Pool match. Anyway as for...

"i confess i'd rather poland win that game handily as reward for the way they set about playing their football. we were ugly, sorry"

You shouldn't use the word "WE" in such an awful statement

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Originally Posted by ken foree

we never forced their keeper into a serious save (i remember a doyle snapshot) and they shoulda been 3-0 up by the time we clawed something back late on. they were dominant as their play had far more cohesion, quality and (not least) style, no matter what our number of sporadic chances that fell to duff. non-stats-wise they simply outclassed us. i confess i'd rather poland win that game handily as reward for the way they set about playing their football. we were ugly, sorry.

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Well the stats have already been posted showing that it was a far from dominant performance from Poland. Same number of shots on goal. Virtually identical corner count. Ireland actually had more possession.

One thing the Poles did better was finish which obviously is pretty important if you want to win games and therefore they deserved to win but to say they dominated the game just isn't the case. Ireland had too many decent goalscoring chances for that to be true. Both defences were shambolic at times and a shambolic defence isn't a trait of a dominant side.

Yes they played prettier football but so do most teams we play even ones we usually beat.

Having said that it was a fairly poor Irish display and only a moderate Polish one.

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Originally Posted by BarelyLegal

You shouldn't use the word "WE" in such an awful statement

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it's a friendly and if a few home truths can be learned from that awful display i have no apologies or corrections to make

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Originally Posted by ken foree

it's a friendly and if a few home truths can be learned from that awful display i have no apologies or corrections to make

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What would u change for Georgia?

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Originally Posted by BarelyLegal

What would u change for Georgia?

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ha, center midfield obviously! failing the miraculous recovery of s. reid or the prodigal (ha-ha) return of s. ireland i'd play 4-4-2 and draft andy reid in for the play-making role. i'd sit him dead-center and ask him to run the game. he's not the be-all but he offers enough on the ball at this level, certainly more in possession than whelan or gibson or andrews. we had a shocking lack of fluidity and creative possession last night in that area and i actually think that contributed more heavily to the uncharacteristic defensive lapses we saw. at home 4-4-2 against georgia in a competitive match we should have enough with him in the side to win.

Ya most of the team picks itself it really, who would partner AReid?? 4-4-2 is ok I would imagine for Georgia alright but come the difficult matches we're far too leightweight for it.

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Originally Posted by BarelyLegal

Ya most of the team picks itself it really, who would partner AReid?? 4-4-2 is ok I would imagine for Georgia alright but come the difficult match we're far too leightweight for it.

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it would have to be whelan at this moment. he's a shielder rather than a pure (gattuso) destroyer but i guess he'd have to play given his acceptable performance with s. reid against georgia the first time. against italy i wouldn't be averse to playing five in the middle with a. reid either deep or behind the lone striker. bulgaria are a different proposition at present, it doesn't seem apparent which bulgaria we'll actually face.

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Originally Posted by ken foree

it would have to be whelan at this moment. he's a shielder rather than a pure (gattuso) destroyer but i guess he'd have to play given his acceptable performance with s. reid against georgia the first time. against italy i wouldn't be averse to playing five in the middle with a. reid either deep or behind the lone striker. bulgaria are a different proposition at present, it doesn't seem apparent which bulgaria we'll actually face.

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spain won the european championships in the summer. who were in their qualifying group? northern ireland. northern ireland beat spain 3-2, they beat the best team in europe. and here we are struggling to scrape past bloody georgia and cyprus. we are a far better team than northern ireland. we have the potential to be a better team than italy. italy are the worst they have ever been at international level. we should be looking to beat them at home and bulgaria too

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Originally Posted by lankyboy26

spain won the european championships in the summer. who were in their qualifying group? northern ireland. northern ireland beat spain 3-2, they beat the best team in europe. and here we are struggling to scrape past bloody georgia and cyprus. we are a far better team than northern ireland. we have the potential to be a better team than italy. italy are the worst they have ever been at international level. we should be looking to beat them at home and bulgaria too

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Why do people go on about Italy being a poor team.

They are the current World Champions, only a few months ago lost to Spain on penalties in the Euros and most of their team plan regularly in the Champions League.

We have only a couple playing in the Champions League and most of these will be out soon and honestly how many of our players would get into the Italy team or squad. Nobody except maybe Robbie Keane.

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Originally Posted by ken foree

it would have to be whelan at this moment. he's a shielder rather than a pure (gattuso) destroyer but i guess he'd have to play given his acceptable performance with s. reid against georgia the first time. against italy i wouldn't be averse to playing five in the middle with a. reid either deep or behind the lone striker. bulgaria are a different proposition at present, it doesn't seem apparent which bulgaria we'll actually face.

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I hate to admit it but Whelan appears to be the only candidate to partner Reid seeing as nobody else has been given an opportunity and there's no more friendlies. Of course Reid prob isn't even an option in Trapps head anyway so I think we may be fecked.

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Originally Posted by ken foree

it would have to be whelan at this moment. he's a shielder rather than a pure (gattuso) destroyer but i guess he'd have to play given his acceptable performance with s. reid against georgia the first time. against italy i wouldn't be averse to playing five in the middle with a. reid either deep or behind the lone striker. bulgaria are a different proposition at present, it doesn't seem apparent which bulgaria we'll actually face.

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I think Carsley should partner Andy Reid, I think they would complement each other very well... It's never going to happen though. I wish we could have a manager would actually pick a sensible team for a change...

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Originally Posted by boovidge

How can people on the basis of this friendly say we have no hope against Bulgaria who got thrashed by Serbia 6-1?

I must admit to being frustrated by the apparent stubborness of Trap's team selection. I think he underestimates the depth in talent Ireland have.

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the bolded bit is my biggest problem with Trappatoni as manager thus far. His comments in the pre-match press conference hinted at exactly what you said Boovidge. I noticed it at the time but didnt pass comment here.

He persists in playing mediocrity when we have better options and also options with greater potential. I do not understand how this man decides on who makes the squad. I just dont get his selection process. Ignore Brady and the others, the buck stops with Trappatoni.

His selections are just as off the wall as Stauntons but instead of being a terrible manager (as i put Stauntons selections down to) i put Trappatonis decisions down to pig-headed stubbornness.

He is bearing grudges against those who didnt/couldnt make his training camp and he is bearing grudges against the players that journalists ask him questions about. To me, it smacks of "cutting off your nose to spite your face".

I wonder who Beenhakker would play if he was manager of Ireland? The Poles played some really nice one/two touch stuff last night so I could definetely see a place for Andy Reid.

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Originally Posted by Noelys Guitar

I wonder who Beenhakker would play if he was manager of Ireland? The Poles played some really nice one/two touch stuff last night so I could definetely see a place for Andy Reid.

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well noely im pretty sure he would not be playing two reserve team players anyway

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Originally Posted by viagogo

Why do people go on about Italy being a poor team.

They are the current World Champions, only a few months ago lost to Spain on penalties in the Euros and most of their team plan regularly in the Champions League.

We have only a couple playing in the Champions League and most of these will be out soon and honestly how many of our players would get into the Italy team or squad. Nobody except maybe Robbie Keane.

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italy ARE a poor team. who's italy'sbest player? cannavaro. and he's practically finished, he's been rubbish for real madrid. they have no strikers as i've said. their midfield is very ordinary, gattuso and de rossi??? hardly anything special. and then you've dossena at left back along with matterazzi centre-half?and you're telling me the only irish player who'd get on the team is robbie keane?! wake up man. even the italian press have said italy are shi%te, i will go to the bookies tomorrow and bet everything i own that italy will not retain the world cup, in fact i'd put a bet on that they won't even qualify. ireland have a better squad

Given was unlucky with the first and last goal, but I thought he was a little too close to his line for the second. On the other hand, he wasn't given much protection from the two centre halves
Dunne and O'Shea both suffered from Dunne's recent lack of form. While Dunne still made some fantastic tackles to break up attacks, and win the ball back, O'Shea suffered from the lack of leadership from Dunne. Perhaps the one game suspension against Arsenal (who he's always had bad games against) and the impending birth of his child will help rectify his recent performances.
The full backs were improved from the Cyprus game, but Kilbane's positional sense still had him caught out. McShane pushed forward more, as he has been doing for Hull recently, but suffered with Keogh playing in front of him. Also, Poland had one runner from midfield between Dunne and McShane, and another on the overlap and he didn't know who to mark. Dunne was telling him to stay close, but Trap seemed to be telling him to push out.
Keogh isn't a winger, and although I can understand the reason behind Trap playing him on the right (i.e. his performance there against Forest) it doesn't make sense that he didn't realise that Keogh scored when he played through the middle in that game, and Long had swapped with him to come in from the right.
Whelan and Gibson were improved from the Cyprus game in that they seemed to have a better understanding what is expected from their partnership in central midfield. However, they're too similar players to be an effective partnership. Both need a ball winner beside them, and both suffered because of this. I do think both players can have an impact at this level, just not in the same side. The ball was played across in front of them too often without them reclaiming possession
Duff is definitely improving under Trapattoni, injuries had robbed us of his talents for the last 2 campaigns, and I really hope he continues in this vein. Unfortunately, he's no finisher.
Doyle worked hard alongside Folan, and seemed to be in the "drop deep and received the ball" forward player, which Keane plays when he is Doyle's partner, instead of his usual target man role, which in this game was Folan.
Folan did try hard, and got an assist for Andrews' goal. I feel with better match sharpness, he would have scored at least once, or released Hunt who was on his left shoulder when he was put through late on. Again, he is an option, and gives us something we don't really have at the moment - a genuine target man. Needs to work on the defensive side of his game

Of the subs, Andrews will probably have the best chance of getting into the starting XI, put simply Stephen Hunt will never start if McGeady and Duff are fit. Andrews could have had 2, if his header had not gone just over before his goal. Some way to mark your debut. Has anyone since David Kelly marked their first cap with a goal?
Hunt did what was we expected of him, came on, and ran at a tiring defence. I was a little surprised that he didn't start. With more time on the pitch he could have had more than just the well taken penalty
Long played on the right, as he did against Forest (where he got the assist on Keogh's goal) and won the penalty we deserved, thought there could have been at least one other.
I didn't see much of Noel Hunt, but from the photos it does look like he was lucky to stay on the pitch with his late tackle. Congratulations on an overdue international debut
Bruce will be the most disappointed of the subs, got turned far too easily for the third goal. Can't see Fiorentina still being interested in him now

Being honest, at 2-0 I was thinking "ok, we made 2 mistakes and got punished, you can't do that at international level". At 2-1 I was thinking "not bad, there's a chance of a late draw". At 3-1, I believe my reaction was "ah, for fcuk sake". And when the final goal went in, I did think it was a fairer reflection of the game.

We played worse against Cyprus and won, and we'll probably play worse than last night and win again. That's football

I recorded the RTE highlights and analysis and you can download it here: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=7POV8C96

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Originally Posted by Noelys Guitar

I wonder who Beenhakker would play if he was manager of Ireland?

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I wonder who Trapattoni would have played if he was in charge of Poland? On the other hand, I wonder who my auntie would be if she had balls?

Great points as usual Tets, and I appreciate you recording that coverage.

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

Of the subs, Andrews will probably have the best chance of getting into the starting XI, put simply Stephen Hunt will never start if McGeady and Duff are fit. Andrews could have had 2, if his header had not gone just over before his goal.

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Wasn't that Bruce who headed just over? Anyway, excellent post. Morrison and Barrett both scored on their debuts I think.

It’s all been thrashed out above but just for what it’s worth here’s what I reckon.

• If O’Shea had made some of Dunne’s errors he’d have been slated here. That said, I think this is a good CB partnership. No complaints.
• McShane had a better game than against Cyprus and at least tried to press forward. However, there was no disguising the fact that we need a natural RB in this position.
• Kilbane was fine, but was clearly instructed to stay back.
• Gibson started the game well and faded. He and Whelan were better than against Cyprus though. The lack of pressure of a competitive game allowed Gibson to express himself a bit more.
• Duff had a fine game, poor finishing notwithstanding.
• Keogh has nothing to offer RHM at this level. If only Liam Lawrence was fit so we could have had a look.
• It was worth having a look at Folan. He did ok but I thought both Noel Hunt and Shane Long looked livelier and harder to defend against. I though the team lacked tempo until the Reading trio were introduced.
• Doyle had to work hard and player deeper than usual and did well enough in the circumstances.

Stephen Hunt is an enigma. He clearly does play better off the bench though there’s no logic to this.

I’m disappointed we didn’t get to see Foley and Delaney. The well known trio of young Championship central midfielders have to be looked at at some stage and I’m frustrated it wasn’t this week.

Trap is clearly set in his ways so we’d better hope that central midfield improves, the defence stays strong and the 6 or so genuine internationals we have stay fit.

It wasn’t a bad game. Their goals were well taken, Duff could have had a couple of goals. Based on chances created we did OK, but there are flaws in this team that were exposed and it’s no harm to be aware of them.

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

I wonder who Trapattoni would have played if he was in charge of Poland? On the other hand, I wonder who my auntie would be if she had balls?

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Isn't that your uncle?

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

It’s all been thrashed out above but just for what it’s worth here’s what I reckon.

• If O’Shea had made some of Dunne’s errors he’d have been slated here. That said, I think this is a good CB partnership. No complaints.
• McShane had a better game than against Cyprus and at least tried to press forward. However, there was no disguising the fact that we need a natural RB in this position.
• Kilbane was fine, but was clearly instructed to stay back.
• Gibson started the game well and faded. He and Whelan were better than against Cyprus though. The lack of pressure of a competitive game allowed Gibson to express himself a bit more.
• Duff had a fine game, poor finishing notwithstanding.
• Keogh has nothing to offer RHM at this level. If only Liam Lawrence was fit so we could have had a look.
• It was worth having a look at Folan. He did ok but I thought both Noel Hunt and Shane Long looked livelier and harder to defend against. I though the team lacked tempo until the Reading trio were introduced.
• Doyle had to work hard and player deeper than usual and did well enough in the circumstances.

Stephen Hunt is an enigma. He clearly does play better off the bench though there’s no logic to this.

I’m disappointed we didn’t get to see Foley and Delaney. The well known trio of young Championship central midfielders have to be looked at at some stage and I’m frustrated it wasn’t this week.

Trap is clearly set in his ways so we’d better hope that central midfield improves, the defence stays strong and the 6 or so genuine internationals we have stay fit.

It wasn’t a bad game. Their goals were well taken, Duff could have had a couple of goals. Based on chances created we did OK, but there are flaws in this team that were exposed and it’s no harm to be aware of them.

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Re: the points about a destructive midfielder who gets stuck in and sits in front of the defense and wins ball back which we clearly need, do people think McShane to be hte perfect example here? I think he does't have the positional sense or pace to be a full back, and he makes too many mistakes at CB to be played there, but if he was played as a defensive midfielder to sit in front of the 2 CBs this could be perfect. IF he makes a mistake there is still a line of defence in behind him so its not as costly. I think McShanes biggest asset is his ability to get stuck in, make tackles and win ball and it could be exactly what we need. All he needs to do then is pass it off to a more creative midfielder who controls the game i.e. Andy Reid.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

Re: the points about a destructive midfielder who gets stuck in and sits in front of the defense and wins ball back which we clearly need, do people think McShane to be hte perfect example here? I think he does't have the positional sense or pace to be a full back, and he makes too many mistakes at CB to be played there, but if he was played as a defensive midfielder to sit in front of the 2 CBs this could be perfect. IF he makes a mistake there is still a line of defence in behind him so its not as costly.

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The Gary Caldwell way. :) No way would I risk McShane there. I think you're underestimating how fatal it can be for the deepest midfielder to lose possession.

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Originally Posted by eirebhoy

The Gary Caldwell way. :) No way would I risk McShane there. I think you're underestimating how fatal it can be for the deepest midfielder to lose possession.

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NO, I'm not saying to lose possession, using him simply to win back possession. As soon as he gets it he gets rid of it. I spose though what I'm really saying is that he would be good in a 5 man midfield, but its not a route we can afford to go down really, given the quality we have in certain positions and the need to use that quality.

We were shocking. No stability in defence, non existant midfield and a few headless chickens up front.

This is the worst pool of players we have had in the last 20 years.

Good reading from Tets and Stutts
The use of bullets definitely adds that bit of oomph.

It will be curious to see what Trap makes of Andrews.
I liked the response from Whelan in a post match interview, more or less expressed a steely determination to get into the first team at Stoke

No way would I let McShane anywhere near a midfield berth.

The best Irish midfield performance I've seen at any level in years was at St. Mary's where we played a 3 man midfield of Garvan, Stephen Quinn & JJ O'Toole.

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Originally Posted by RivaldoBabb

This is the worst pool of players we have had in the last 20 years.

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Jesus it wasn't too long ago that I was shouting for Kavanagh to come in to midfield. He did come in for a bit, in place of Matt Holland who hardly kicked a ball for us in so many games. Kinsella played a bit here and there but he was past it and was moving to clubs like Walsall. Healy also played a few games while Kilbane was a mainstay in the centre.

We had Steve Finnan filling in at right midfield a lot. Duff had to play up front a bit before Morrison broke in the team. Morrison's nowhere near this squad. Gary Doherty played almost 20 times under Kerr. Gary Breen and Ian Harte a good few games. Alan Maybury. Alan Lee. Stephen Carr was well past it. Nick Colgan was our sub keeper before Kenny. David Connolly and Alan Quinn got 6 caps each. Stephen Elliott was breaking into the team, albeit a good young player.

Do not tell me this is the worst set of players in 20 years. :) We're never going to have fabulous strength in depth but with everyone fit we've a very strong first team with the exception of the left back spot. There's plenty of back up players but we can't do without Richard Dunne, just like there was no way we could survive without Cunningham under Kerr.

Also, I'd say we could put a midfield together from the current set of players that would outplay any Keane-less team from the McCarthy/Kerr/Stan era.

Ya I think it's an insult to the holding midfield role by suggesting that because McShane gets stuck in he could hack it in this position. You need a positional sense and brain for this role, neither are traits I'd associate with him.

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Originally Posted by eirebhoy

Wasn't that Bruce who headed just over? Anyway, excellent post. Morrison and Barrett both scored on their debuts I think.

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Sorry, yeah, it was Bruce. When Andrews scored, I thought it was Bruce, didn't realise it was Andrews until the announcer called out his name.

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Originally Posted by eirebhoy

Jesus it wasn't too long ago that I was shouting for Kavanagh to come in to midfield. He did come in for a bit, in place of Matt Holland who hardly kicked a ball for us in so many games. Kinsella played a bit here and there but he was past it and was moving to clubs like Walsall. Healy also played a few games while Kilbane was a mainstay in the centre.

We had Steve Finnan filling in at right midfield a lot. Duff had to play up front a bit before Morrison broke in the team. Morrison's nowhere near this squad. Gary Doherty played almost 20 times under Kerr. Gary Breen and Ian Harte a good few games. Alan Maybury. Alan Lee. Stephen Carr was well past it. Nick Colgan was our sub keeper before Kenny. David Connolly and Alan Quinn got 6 caps each. Stephen Elliott was breaking into the team, albeit a good young player.

Do not tell me this is the worst set of players in 20 years. :) We're never going to have fabulous strength in depth but with everyone fit we've a very strong first team with the exception of the left back spot. There's plenty of back up players but we can't do without Richard Dunne, just like there was no way we could survive without Cunningham under Kerr.

Also, I'd say we could put a midfield together from the current set of players that would outplay any Keane-less team from the McCarthy/Kerr/Stan era.

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I'd agree with this. I think we've the bones of a good side and to be fair if the two Reids were playing and Stephen Ireland was available it would have the look of a seriously strong side. Fair enough this isn't the case so there's not much point in talking bout it. Still though we've a world class gk, a world class central defender in Dunne, 2 Champions Lge winners in Finnan and O'Shea (I know I'm being generous to O'Shea here with my choice of words but he's adequate with Dunne beside him). I honestly think Kilbane has finally found his true calling at left back. In McGeady and Duff we have two genuinley skillful and exciting wingers, although I do feel McGeady does him best work on the left cutting in but this is managable). In Doyle we've got a highly intelligent football brain who gives every last bit he has and Robbie Keane has 35 intl goals which is unheard of for an Irish striker really, especially at a relatively young age of 28. Centre mid's obviously an absolutely massive issue but worst team in 20yrs, you're having a laugh!!!

the formation is unrealistic but i wish a manager came in and just went for something innovative, the players u listed there ciaran show we do have the players(if they all wanted to play and were fit) to play a flexible and on paper attacking formation.

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Originally Posted by Ciaran

How much money would you pay to watch this team play? :rolleyes:


---------------Given----------

-----O'Shea----Dunne----O'Brien

-------------Steven Reid--------
---------Andy Reid----Ireland-------
Duff---------------------------McGeady
---------Keane--------Doyle----------


That'd send shivers down the spine of any defence in the world, I mean jesus how do you defend against the combined creativity of 2 Reids and Ireland, Duff and McGeady flying at you and the finishing of Keane and Doyle?

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Bomb long balls into the corners, and play a big target man in the middle. Duff and McGeady are not known for tracking back, so there would be a massive amount of space for speedy wingers to exploit out there which would drag the outside centre half away from the centre of defence, leaving 2 defenders VS 2 opposition strikers.
O'Shea and O'Brien look shaky enough in a four man defence. God knows what they're like in a 3-man. Play someone like Ibrahimovic, Berbatov, or Crouch against them and someone with pace to run off the balls they'd win in the air.
That team would be like Brazil going forward, but one tackler in midfield leaves the defence painfully exposed.
Trapattoni's teams are built with 6 defensive players (4 defenders + 2 defensive central midfielders) and 4 attacking players (2 wingers + 2 strikers), your team has 4 defensive players + 6 attackers. Keegan would be proud.

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

Sorry, yeah, it was Bruce. When Andrews scored, I thought it was Bruce, didn't realise it was Andrews until the announcer called out his name.

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I actually thought it was Andrews coming on when it was Bruce. :D

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Originally Posted by Ciaran

How much money would you pay to watch this team play? :rolleyes:


---------------Given----------

-----O'Shea----Dunne----O'Brien

-------------Steven Reid--------
---------Andy Reid----Ireland-------
Duff---------------------------McGeady
---------Keane--------Doyle----------


That'd send shivers down the spine of any defence in the world, I mean jesus how do you defend against the combined creativity of 2 Reids and Ireland, Duff and McGeady flying at you and the finishing of Keane and Doyle?

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Ya the personnel is appealing but tis far too attack minded. I'd prefer....

---------------Given----------

Finnan-----O'Shea----Dunne----Kilbane

-------------Steven Reid--------
---------Andy Reid----Ireland-------

Doyle-----------------------Duff/McGeady
----------------Keane------------------

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Originally Posted by eirebhoy

I actually thought it was Andrews coming on when it was Bruce. :D

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Bruce was wearing 19, and Andrews was wearing 12. From where I was sitting up in the Gods at the back of the Cusack, it was hard to tell the difference!

to be honest i'm sick of the formations threads that appear on here because we will never see them and its futile. Can we buy Ireland like that football club in england and the majority get to pick the players.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

to be honest i'm sick of the formations threads that appear on here because we will never see them and its futile. Can we buy Ireland like that football club in england and the majority get to pick the players.

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True enough for u.....we like tormenting ourselves though all the same!!!

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Originally Posted by lankyboy26

italy ARE a poor team. who's italy'sbest player? cannavaro. and he's practically finished, he's been rubbish for real madrid. they have no strikers as i've said. their midfield is very ordinary, gattuso and de rossi??? hardly anything special. and then you've dossena at left back along with matterazzi centre-half?and you're telling me the only irish player who'd get on the team is robbie keane?! wake up man. even the italian press have said italy are shi%te, i will go to the bookies tomorrow and bet everything i own that italy will not retain the world cup, in fact i'd put a bet on that they won't even qualify. ireland have a better squad

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Is this a wind up. We have a better squad. Have you seen the Irish team.What Irish player would get in their squad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfO0JGTFHLw