AIPL plans revealed

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Originally Posted by londonred

Not all the clubs have ben involved yet

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Linfield
Longford
Glentoran
Shelbourne
Portadown
Cork City
Drogheda
Dungannon
Derry City
Cliftonville
St. Patricks Athletic

What other towns do you want fans going to, to see the reaction of the locals?

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all it takes is someone to get a nosebleed and it will be front page of the Indgaapendent, who is going to pay for the policing costs under the proposals.

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The same people who pay the policing costs now?

Given that I've strolled around the Shankhill road in a green and white striped jersey I think we can put the "There Will Be Blood!" line to rest.

As already mentioned there are far too many assumptions made in this proposal. The one that stood out to me in particular was the claim that attendances would increase by 150% in year One. I would love to see bigger crowds but the proposals offer no reason why crowds would increase so quickly when same teams are playing each other in the same poor stadiums. :confused:

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

What in gods name are you on about? There hasn't been any trouble in the Setanta Cup and thats going for what, 4 or 5 years now?

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Was there not altercations between Linfield Fans and Gardai in Dublin earlier this year when they where playing Pats.


I would be inclined to agree with London Red on this. No ground in the country is properly equipped for handling away support of any numbers and the Gardai and PSNI would be unable to handle any trouble outside the ground without resorting to baton charges.

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Originally Posted by jinxy lilywhite

Was there not altercations between Linfield Fans and Gardai in Dublin earlier this year when they where playing Pats.

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No. One Linfield fan was arrested for being drunk, a tabloid tried to make something more of it and got slaughtered for it. The thread is still here on foot.ie AFAIK.

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I would be inclined to agree with London Red on this. No ground in the country is properly equipped for handling away support of any numbers

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Excuse me? What does that mean? What's wrong with, for instance, Turner's Cross? or Tolka Park (in terms of access and control of away fans, rather than quality of facilities)?

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and the Gardai and PSNI would be unable to handle any trouble outside the ground without resorting to baton charges.

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They've done perfectly fine so far.

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Originally Posted by londonred

Not all the clubs have ben involved yet , all it takes is someone to get a nosebleed and it will be front page of the Indgaapendent, who is going to pay for the policing costs under the proposals.

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You're obviously referring to Rovers and Bohs. The Indo and the Herag get enough material on them anyway and life goes on so can't see what the issue is?

Of all the supposed issues, this is the one thats least valid, as the Setanta Cup has proved.

Therre would be massive offs every week. I really could see hooligans coming over for the weekend just for a fight. Do Shamrock have some connection with conference side Wrexham? Bohs are connected to Wrexham rival Rhyl now and i think Derry have a connection with a team in Serie C1. While we if we ever got in would have the backing of the Accrington Stanley Ultras. Also with the cheap flights on ryanair and online checking these hooligans could be on our doorstep at a moments notice

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Originally Posted by Rovers Maniac

Therre would be massive offs every week. I really could see hooligans coming over for the weekend just for a fight. Do Shamrock have some connection with conference side Wrexham? Bohs are connected to Wrexham rival Rhyl now and i think Derry have a connection with a team in Serie C1. While we if we ever got in would have the backing of the Accrington Stanley Ultras. Also with the cheap flights on ryanair and online checking these hooligans could be on our doorstep at a moments notice

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You're missing a smilie aren't you?:eek:

Two points
Firstly whether or not you like this specific proposal or not (and I personally think it has a lot of things right), an AIL is the only possible way of suporting a professional league in Ireland. I like their ideas for the Cups & the eventual promotion from the FAI & IFA leagues, personally I'd like the promotion/relegation to be from season 1 but I can see the stability argument for keeping it a closed shop for a couple of years. The other thing I think they've got wrong is the entrance eligibility, it should be performance based if it is to have any credence and inviting (no offence) Limerick in at this stage is a tad farcical. If this is not going to be the case then why no set up 10 brand new franchises like the MLS and start from scratch?
Second point is that an AIL has zero chance of success without the full backing of the FAI, IFA & UEFA this proposal currently has none of the 3 on board until that changes it will never happen in the format Platinum are talking about

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Originally Posted by endabob1

Two points
Firstly whether or not you like this specific proposal or not (and I personally think it has a lot of things right), an AIL is the only possible way of suporting a professional league in Ireland. I like their ideas for the Cups & the eventual promotion from the FAI & IFA leagues, personally I'd like the promotion/relegation to be from season 1 but I can see the stability argument for keeping it a closed shop for a couple of years. The other thing I think they've got wrong is the entrance eligibility, it should be performance based if it is to have any credence and inviting (no offence) Limerick in at this stage is a tad farcical. If this is not going to be the case then why no set up 10 brand new franchises like the MLS and start from scratch?
Second point is that an AIL has zero chance of success without the full backing of the FAI, IFA & UEFA this proposal currently has none of the 3 on board until that changes it will never happen in the format Platinum are talking about

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Agree with above.I believe that there will be an ail league in 2/3 years and that supporters must put maximum effort in to secure the kind of league that they desire.

If something like this were to go ahead, rather than having two independent leagues underneath, it they may as well combine them and let them play each other to earn the right to promotion from the first season onwards rather than through playoffs between the winners of both leagues. Imagine winning your league and losing the playoff. You couldn't even boast about winning the league as people would just ask, "So what? Your still here aren't you?"

I know the combining of the two leagues itself, rather than a breakaway from certain clubs into a new league, has often been frowned upon, but if the AIPL came about it might take away some of the reasons for not combining the leagues. Then you could have two leagues fully connected to each other. You could probably add a third league for teams looking to make the step up similar to the "A Championship" of today except including teams from anywhere in Ireland.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

Of all the supposed issues, this is the one thats least valid, as the Setanta Cup has proved.

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You do an awful lot of supposing where it's not really justified. Which issues are only "supposed" issues as opposed to fundamental ones? (And I agree with you on the ridiculous over-exaggeration of the security issue, so you can ignore that one). You were also happy to suppose that the Limerick fans would suddenly do a U-turn when they'd previously said that their inclusion would be ridiculous. You're happy to suppse that the FAI have a "finger in the ear attitude" towards clubs' financial problems - I'd argue that the FAI's sensible 65% wage cap approach has instead caught these financial issues before they got way out of hand, and so (a) that's far from a "finger in the ear" approach, and (b) it's as much as they can really do in an issue that ultimately they don't have much control over. Maybe you should look to arguing actual issues rather than "supposing" them to exist or not.

There's a number of problems with the proposals. The first is that they bear Jim Roddy's trademark of a superb goal with absolutely no correlation between the changes proposed and how we're going to reach the goals. Again, stuff like "Irish football has no future" are bandied about without any sort of back up. Of course Irish football has a future. But if that future involves average gates of 1500 and part-time teams because Johnny Bar Stool doesn't care about the league, then we have to accept that straight off and work within those constraints. That's more of a future than magic 150% crowd increases.

Secondly, did Linfield not state about a month ago that they weren't interested in this for the foreseeable future? No-one cares about anyone other than Linfield and Glens from the North (with due respect to the other clubs), and if Linfield are out, I'd imagine Glens are out (won't risk losing their bumper three-times-a-year crowds to have 100 Cork fans instead), which sinks the project immediately.

Thirdly, the new IL Premier League was initially supposed to have no relegation for a period, but that was changed after, as I understood it, pressure from UEFA (and correct me if I'm wrong here). Yet Platinum One have decided they can overcome the exact same issue somehow?

What the Platinum One proposals are basically promising isn't a million miles off where Genesis said we'd be about now. Not much has changed with the new league, increased TV coverage, CPOs, etc, and not much will change if Linfield and Glentoran are brought into this mix, lured by pie-in-the-sky revenue figures. Anyone who believes this is the only way to a fully professional league doesn't have a clue about Irish football.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

You do an awful lot of supposing where it's not really justified. Which issues are only "supposed" issues as opposed to fundamental ones? (And I agree with you on the ridiculous over-exaggeration of the security issue, so you can ignore that one). You were also happy to suppose that the Limerick fans would suddenly do a U-turn when they'd previously said that their inclusion would be ridiculous. You're happy to suppse that the FAI have a "finger in the ear attitude" towards clubs' financial problems - I'd argue that the FAI's sensible 65% wage cap approach has instead caught these financial issues before they got way out of hand, and so (a) that's far from a "finger in the ear" approach, and (b) it's as much as they can really do in an issue that ultimately they don't have much control over. Maybe you should look to arguing actual issues rather than "supposing" them to exist or not.

There's a number of problems with the proposals. The first is that they bear Jim Roddy's trademark of a superb goal with absolutely no correlation between the changes proposed and how we're going to reach the goals. Again, stuff like "Irish football has no future" are bandied about without any sort of back up. Of course Irish football has a future. But if that future involves average gates of 1500 and part-time teams because Johnny Bar Stool doesn't care about the league, then we have to accept that straight off and work within those constraints. That's more of a future than magic 150% crowd increases.

Secondly, did Linfield not state about a month ago that they weren't interested in this for the foreseeable future? No-one cares about anyone other than Linfield and Glens from the North (with due respect to the other clubs), and if Linfield are out, I'd imagine Glens are out (won't risk losing their bumper three-times-a-year crowds to have 100 Cork fans instead), which sinks the project immediately.

Thirdly, the new IL Premier League was initially supposed to have no relegation for a period, but that was changed after, as I understood it, pressure from UEFA (and correct me if I'm wrong here). Yet Platinum One have decided they can overcome the exact same issue somehow?

What the Platinum One proposals are basically promising isn't a million miles off where Genesis said we'd be about now. Not much has changed with the new league, increased TV coverage, CPOs, etc, and not much will change if Linfield and Glentoran are brought into this mix, lured by pie-in-the-sky revenue figures. Anyone who believes this is the only way to a fully professional league doesn't have a clue about Irish football.

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Good post.

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Originally Posted by endabob1

Two points
Firstly whether or not you like this specific proposal or not (and I personally think it has a lot of things right), an AIL is the only possible way of suporting a professional league in Ireland. I like their ideas for the Cups & the eventual promotion from the FAI & IFA leagues, personally I'd like the promotion/relegation to be from season 1 but I can see the stability argument for keeping it a closed shop for a couple of years.

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Correct that the only way a professional League could work in Ireland is if it is on an all-Ireland basis. But do not be deceived into thinking that just because a professional League is all-Ireland, therefore it must work.
From what I've seen of this proposal, this one has no chance.

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Originally Posted by endabob1

Two points
I like their ideas for the Cups & the eventual promotion from the FAI & IFA leagues, personally I'd like the promotion/relegation to be from season 1 but I can see the stability argument for keeping it a closed shop for a couple of years.

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Re P&R, there's a circle here that cannot be squared (imo). If you have P&R from the beginning, then clubs will be reluctant to make the long term investment in stadium and infrastructure etc, esp if at the expense of the player budget, if there is a risk they could relegated straightaway.
But if P&R is delayed for 2 or 3 seasons (to allow stability) and the League generates the revenues which Platinum predict, then the excluded sides will be so much further behind than now, that when they do get promotion to the AIPL, the gap will be too large for them to stay there.
Exactly the same has happened in England, where there are 6 or 8 clubs "Yo Yo" clubs who are too good for the Championship, but not good enough for the EPL.

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Originally Posted by endabob1

Two points
The other thing I think they've got wrong is the entrance eligibility, it should be performance based if it is to have any credence and inviting (no offence) Limerick in at this stage is a tad farcical. If this is not going to be the case then why no set up 10 brand new franchises like the MLS and start from scratch?

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Because they know that not only is a a pure Franchise system unacceptable, but deep down they know it doesn't work in countries which already have a long-established club tradition, which the Franchise clubs would have to replace. For example, could you see supporters of e.g. Dundalk and Drogheda switching to support a combined "Louth United"? I don't think so, somehow...:D

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Originally Posted by endabob1

Two points
Second point is that an AIL has zero chance of success without the full backing of the FAI, IFA & UEFA this proposal currently has none of the 3 on board until that changes it will never happen in the format Platinum are talking about

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Absolutely. Of the many flaws which make this proposal unworkable, this (fortunately) is the one which will kill it off soonest (imo).

Actually, where I wrote -

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Anyone who believes this is the only way to a fully professional league doesn't have a clue about Irish football.

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...I should have written -

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

But do not be deceived into thinking that just because a professional League is all-Ireland, therefore it must work.

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Obvious difference.

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Originally Posted by TheFingallian

If something like this were to go ahead, rather than having two independent leagues underneath, it they may as well combine them and let them play each other to earn the right to promotion from the first season onwards rather than through playoffs between the winners of both leagues. Imagine winning your league and losing the playoff. You couldn't even boast about winning the league as people would just ask, "So what? Your still here aren't you?"

I know the combining of the two leagues itself, rather than a breakaway from certain clubs into a new league, has often been frowned upon, but if the AIPL came about it might take away some of the reasons for not combining the leagues. Then you could have two leagues fully connected to each other. You could probably add a third league for teams looking to make the step up similar to the "A Championship" of today except including teams from anywhere in Ireland.

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Not only do the clubs involved, the two leagues and the two Associations not want this, but the Platinum Group don't want anything to do with this suggestion.
Can't you see that they merely want to cream off the 10 or 12 potentially most profitable clubs and to Hell with the rest?
There's nothing in it for them in administering another 20 or so additional senior clubs, other than additional expense and hassle.

P.S. If there is presently suspicion in NI about the possible implications of a simple 10 team AIPL, any suggested doing away with the Irish League entirely would increase the hostility 100 fold, since that really could be seen as a stepping stone towards doing away with our independence. :mad:

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

P.S. If there is presently suspicion in NI about the possible implications of a simple 10 team AIPL, any suggested doing away with the Irish League entirely would increase the hostility 100 fold, since that really could be seen as a stepping stone towards doing away with our independence. :mad:

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Er, what? I don't reckon any borders were effected because of an all-ireland rugby league...

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Originally Posted by GavinZac

Er, what? I don't reckon any borders were effected because of an all-ireland rugby league...

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There was no Northern Ireland international rugby team to be affected.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

P.S. If there is presently suspicion in NI about the possible implications of a simple 10 team AIPL, any suggested doing away with the Irish League entirely would increase the hostility 100 fold, since that really could be seen as a stepping stone towards doing away with our independence. :mad:

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Truly a case of adding two and two and getting.....a lorry.

Or possibly a swordfish.

Certainly not 4....

PS Getting back to the point at hand, the Irish League (not unlike our own league) appears to be doing a good job of doing away with itself.

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Originally Posted by Schumi

There was no Northern Ireland international rugby team to be affected.

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The Northern Ireland national team wouldn't be affected at all. How many Irish League players play in the team regularly anyway. It's already completely independent of the clubs.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Not only do the clubs involved, the two leagues and the two Associations not want this, but the Platinum Group don't want anything to do with this suggestion.
Can't you see that they merely want to cream off the 10 or 12 potentially most profitable clubs and to Hell with the rest?
There's nothing in it for them in administering another 20 or so additional senior clubs, other than additional expense and hassle.

P.S. If there is presently suspicion in NI about the possible implications of a simple 10 team AIPL, any suggested doing away with the Irish League entirely would increase the hostility 100 fold, since that really could be seen as a stepping stone towards doing away with our independence. :mad:

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What we will be left with is the corpses of two leagues minus their money spinners which for three years are near meaningless otherwise.