24 Week Abortions

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secondly, in my view if you have unprotected sex and the girl becomes pregnant, it doesnt really matter if you want the child or not. this is where you personally have to face up to the consequences of your actions, something that isnt happening very much in modern ireland, and deal with it. preferably not via the easy approach of getting an abortion. to me, all disagreements about the act of abortion aside, that is taking the cowards route out of a problem that you and the other person involved got yourselves into to. you made the decision to have unprotected sex, you have to face the consequences. as we say in derry, take your oil.

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Thats the most simplistic argument I've ever read on this forum.

Are you saying that it'd be OK to have an abortion if the man was wearing a condom and it slipped off or broke. You do realise that there isn't a single method of cntraception that is 100% fool proof don't you? if you really think that abortion is the easy answer, you obviously have not met anybody who's had to consider that as an option. Its a horrible process for any strong couple to go through, never mind some 16 year old girl who got drunk. Nobody, and I'll repeat for emphasis, NOBODY who decides to have an abortion does so on the basis thats its the easy option. They do so on the basis that at that monent and time they're not ready to look after a child.

Your language reads that you want to punish people for having unprotected sex. If you see a child as a punishment, then your opinion on children means nothing to me

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Originally Posted by anto1280

1. she doesnt have to raise the child she doesnt want

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So the other two points don't matter :rolleyes:

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2.do you think giving birth to a "child/fetous" at 6 months is all that different from giving birth to one at 9 months if so you should look into what actually happens its still pretty hard on the woman at any stage.

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There are marked differences

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Its nothing to do with controll over a womans body im all for people doing what they like to themselves as long as it doesnt affect other people. As soon as you involve others then your rights are restricted this applies to Men and Women

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Agreed. But if he wants her to have the baby, and she's adament that she's having the abortion, I'd side with her every single time. If you side with him, good luck forcing her to have the baby. Lets see how that works out

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Originally Posted by SeanDrog

The reality is that abortion means social exclusion rather than real personal support for women facing unexpected pregnancy.

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Social exclusion by who? The people who published this report and the fanatics shoving pictures of dead foetus' at children outside the GPO on a Saturday? Cause it's certainly not by me and people like me

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Originally Posted by jebus

I don't think it's anyone's right to impose their will on someone else.

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I know you are otping out but I need to reply to this - this logic means you have no problem with people doing what they want, so I can kill you if I want, I can turn up and kill you and eat you because I want to (in theory :) ) and you would oppose anyone who opposes my will to do so. You see its a bit of an attempted washing of the hands answer that does not hold water as it is an illogical position to take in a functioning society.

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Originally Posted by jebus

Social exclusion by who? The people who published this report and the fanatics shoving pictures of dead foetus; at children outside the GPO on a Saturday? Cause it's certainly not by me and people like me

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Socal exclusion of society as it gives it a way of washing it hands of supporting the mother through a difficult pregnacy. Not that the mother is social excluded after an abortion. On reading can see how yo may have taken it up as such - I hope I have clarified it.

PS Clam down.

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Originally Posted by SeanDrog

I know you are otping out but I need to reply to this - this logic means you have no problem with people doing what they want, so I can kill you if I want, I can turn up and kill you and eat you because I want to (in theory :) ) and you would oppose anyone who opposes my will to do so.

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Hard to debate with people who try and turn words to their advantage when they know thats not what was meant. Anyway to play your game then read my sentence again and ask if murdering me would be you imposing your will on me? So logically I'm against you doing that. Final word cause that's a nonsense point you just made in a thread that has been surprisingly mature

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Originally Posted by SeanDrog

PS Clam down.

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PS cut out the ridiculous internet tactics of trying to make someone something you want them to be, i.e. in a rage and illogical

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Originally Posted by Dodge

Imagine having to look after a kid you didn't want witha girl you dind't even like anymore? headrecking or wha?

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I have a 6 year old daughter from a previous relationship, I can't stand her mother and we've been apart for about three years, I live for the weekend when I get to spend time with my Daughter and would not change a single thing about my past or the relationship with her mother, I wouldn't give up my daughter for anything so no having a kid with someone you don't exactly like anymore is not at all headwrecking for me and is probably the single best thing that has ever happened to me, whats more her mother would say exactly the same thing we can't stand the sight of each other now but both of us adore our daughter

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Originally Posted by SeanDrog

Sometimes abortion is put forward, even taken for granted, as a 'solution' to the most difficult situations. But this approach ignores the fact that it involves the taking of the unborn life and the exposure of the women to emotional hurt and possible psychological harm.

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How is bringing an unwanted child into the world a better solution? How can a child develop if it is not loved? Surely you can't be saying that "ah sure she'll love it hen it comes along"? You can't be seriously generalising that much?

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The reality is that abortion means social exclusion rather than real personal support for women facing unexpected pregnancy.

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perhaps because people like yourself attach such a stigma to the act of abortion. perhaps if you embraced it as a viable option, these women would not feel so much social exclusion. The fact that you point out that coupless and single women have abortions despite feeling such exclusion should indicate that they have not taken this decision as the easy way out.

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We must recognise, however, that there are immensely difficult and agonising situations which test our true compassion and solidarity as a society. If what seems impossible initially has a better long-term outcome for both the woman and her unborn baby, we owe it to them to have supports in place to cope with these situations.

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I agree 100%. What you don't point out is that abortion is sometimes the best option for all concerned

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Abortion is often the easy solution for everybody except the woman and her unborn child.

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Abortion is never easy on anybody. As you say, its not easy on women, and some still choose to proceed. Why do you think they do this? They know its not easy, they know the implications, they know how some people will treat them. Yet some still go through with it. Unless you'r trying to saying that everybody who has an abortion does so on a whim? But you know thats ridiculous...

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Originally Posted by Dodge

There are marked differences

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Not really. Again personal experience, My Mother was 6 months pregnant when she gave birth to my sister, a sister who is now 32 married and has 2 boy's of her own.

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Originally Posted by Block G Raptor

I have a 6 year old daughter from a previous relationship, I can't stand her mother and we've been apart for about three years, I live for the weekend when I get to spend time with my Daughter and would not change a single thing about my past or the relationship with her mother, I wouldn't give up my daughter for anything so no having a kid with someone you don't exactly like anymore is not at all headwrecking for me and is probably the single best thing that has ever happened to me, whats more her mother would say exactly the same thing we can't stand the sight of each other now but both of us adore our daughter

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Good for you. but that wasn't the point I made. I made the point that some couples don't want children. Remember we're talking about a tiny, tiny minority of pregnancies here. In the vast majority of cases, the child will be born, and in the vast majority of those cases, the child will be loved by both parents.

However its not always that way, and rather than think of it from your perspective, why not let people decide based on their own circumstances

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Originally Posted by Dodge

Good for you. but that wasn't the point I made. I made the point that some couples don't want children. Remember we're talking about a tiny, tiny minority of pregnancies here. In the vast majority of cases, the child will be born, and in the vast majority of those cases, the child will be loved by both parents.

However its not always that way, and rather than think of it from your perspective, why not let people decide based on their own circumstances

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I know the point you were trying to make and I should have pointed out in my post that neither me nor the ex were exactly over the moon about the pregnancy and but for our beliefs I think abortion may have been seen as an option

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Originally Posted by Block G Raptor

I know the point you were trying to make and I should have pointed out in my post that neither me nor the ex were exactly over the moon about the pregnancy and but for our beliefs I think abortion may have been seen as an option

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Again, it worked for you. and I'm delighted.

It doesn't work for everyione else

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Originally Posted by jebus

Hard to debate with people who try and turn words to their advantage when they know thats not what was meant. Anyway to play your game then read my sentence again and ask if murdering me would be you imposing your will on me? So logically I'm against you doing that. Final word cause that's a nonsense point you just made in a thread that has been surprisingly mature



PS cut out the ridiculous internet tactics of trying to make someone something you want them to be, i.e. in a rage and illogical

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Actually I feel from the tone of the post that you were becoming heated.

In fact it is you trying to discredit my point, I was making the point that society always has to impose its will on others as their will, as there will be alway people with differing positions to society and society has to impose its will for the greaer good of its specific value system. (and that is the key of this debate - what value does society give the unborn human)

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Originally Posted by SeanDrog

In fact it is you trying to discredit my point, I was making the point that society always has to impose its will on others as their will, as there will be alway people with differing positions to society and society has to impose its will for the greaer good of its specific value system. (and that is the key of this debate - what value does society give the unborn human)

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Wow, thats a preety big leap. Are you really siggesting that everybody should have the same beliefs and values? can you please list all values that society has decreed

Dodge

I have been told that this debate should remain calm and rationale so stating the following "because people like yourself attach such a stigma to the act of abortion" is uncalled for personalisation. Feels like a case that if you dont like the message, so shoot the messanger.


Now onto your point: How is bringing an unwanted child into the world a better solution? How can a child develop if it is not loved? Surely you can't be saying that "ah sure she'll love it hen it comes along"? You can't be seriously generalising that much?

So does that also mean if the child is born and the mother decides she doesn't want it then it should be terminated? As you indicate that its is hampered as it will not be loved (assume you mean by the mother/parents) so it is better dead?

I would have thought that adoption was an option and I find your view strange to say the least. I also wold have thought that the resulting child/person would he seen life as a better option.

Anyhow, good debate and always a polarisng debate and I doubt anyone on either side have moved. I need to log off. Cheerio.

Im calling it a day on this one too as its getting into a pro/anti abortion thread rather than a 24 week one. All ill say is 24 weeks is too long way too long.

I dont want kids now thats why i use condoms and the missus is on the pill if on the freak tiny tiny chance both of those dont work (in the case of a slip or split the morning after pill would be the next option )if after all that she still got pregnant then id step up and take care of the baby if she didnt want to raise it id would agree to raise it on my own, if she still went against all my wishes and did have an abortion it would be a deal breaker.

I think thats a pretty reasonable attitude to have.



It all boils down to you are better off just having a w**k.

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Originally Posted by Block G Raptor

I've been reading this Thread since it's inception and have been reluctant to post, however if I was to post I would have said pretty much exactly what ShantyKelly has said above. I would like to add that the Sterile language used by some posters on here is a little unsettling to say the least, I think the attitude to abortion from some sections of society is a sad indictment of the value that we put on human life today.

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I'd imagine you haven't read all my posts, I'm not going through why I use scientific language in this topic again.

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from personal experience, My partner miscarried at 11 weeks and still to this day considers the mis-carraige a lost child, (even having the name we had chosen Tatooed on her back) Whilst I have to admit I was against her getting the tatoo as I thought it a little extreme I have seen how it was part of the grieving process and has helped her, so I'd like gavinzac to tell her that what she lost was an amphibious Parasite and see what her reaction would be

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I'm sorry for your loss, but:
Firstly, we all have stories like that, 2 women in my life have miscarried. If we are to allow emotions to dictate laws then they would be very different. Your situation is different from the next, and that from the next.

Secondly, what you were mourning was the loss of a potential child. Potential being the operative word; This isn't an attempt to trivialise your experience, but the fact of the matter is that some other people would be relieved to no longer carry a potential child at 11 weeks. The difference is purely personal and that is why we can't just legislate based on your experience. As jebus pointed out, at the heart of this debate is not whether we believe abortion is wrong or right, but whether it is right for me to tell you that it is or is not in your situation, or vice versa*.

edit: *of course, that isn't actually true; the topic is whether 24 weeks is too old; if we toss out the abortion right/wrong, legal/illegal debate and concentrate on the limit that it should be if it is to be legal, the debate would be much shorter - basically, a few links to scientific studies and declarations of agreement or disagreement. That is where my much maligned "amphibian" remark comes in; at an early duration, the foetus is unrecognisable as human and virtually indistinguishable from any other tetrapod foetus.

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Originally Posted by Dodge

Wow, thats a preety big leap. Are you really siggesting that everybody should have the same beliefs and values? can you please list all values that society has decreed

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Clearly not them all, but the ones to allow society function like the following:

Murder is wrong
Incest in wrong
Child abuse is wrong

are these good enough examples

If you beleive that society doesn't need some set of rules then you an interesting character. Now some people will disagree with these rules and society needs to impose its will to allow it to function. Don't see the difficulty in understanding this point but again maybe ts just another attmept to discredit the messanger.

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Originally Posted by anto1208

Im calling it a day on this one too as its getting into a pro/anti abortion thread rather than a 24 week one. All ill say is 24 weeks is too long way too long.

I dont want kids now thats why i use condoms and the missus is on the pill if on the freak tiny tiny chance both of those dont work (in the case of a slip or split the morning after pill would be the next option )if after all that she still got pregnant then id step up and take care of the baby if she didnt want to raise it id would agree to raise it on my own, if she still went against all my wishes and did have an abortion it would be a deal breaker.

I think thats a pretty reasonable attitude to have.



It all boils down to you are better off just having a w**k.

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cheerio anto - I'm signing off too - getting a little bit muddy now.

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Originally Posted by SeanDrog

If you beleive that society doesn't need some set of rules then you an interesting character. Now some people will disagree with these rules and society needs to impose its will to allow it to function. Don't see the difficulty in understanding this point

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And if abortion were legal, that would be one rule to serve society. Just like now, some would disagree with it, but society would still function.

People who didnt want to have abortions wouldn't have them, and people who did wouldn't have to go abroad to get them.

Don't see the difficulty in understanding this point.

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Originally Posted by SeanDrog

Clearly not them all, but the ones to allow society function like the following:

Incest in wrong
Child abuse is wrong

are these good enough examples

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Excellent examples. You think incest is bad but would allow a father be rewarded with a new child (and I think a child is a reward and a gift)

You're against child abuse but would force a women to bringa child into an abusive situation

You see my point? Nothing is cut and dried.