Secret All-Ireland league talks at 'advanced' stage

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

On a separate, but related note, is it correct that athletes get special tax status in the Republic (like artists, writers etc)?

If so, this might raise a problem for any all-Ireland League whereby Northern clubs would have to outbid their Southern counterparts when it comes to paying wages (i.e. in order to equalise their take home pay).

All other things being equal, a player would surely sooner accept e.g. €750 per week from Dundalk than £500 pw from Newry City. There might be other financial implications we haven't thought about, as well. For example, is it correct that VAT is not levied on gate receipts for sporting events in the Republic, the way it is in NI?

Also, differing levels of Government support (e.g. for facilities), or tighter/more lenient regulation, might also serve to prevent a level playing field?

How do Derry City fare at present?

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This issue is there at the minute so an all Ireland League isn't going to change anything in terms of the tax situation.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

On a separate, but related note, is it correct that athletes get special tax status in the Republic (like artists, writers etc)?

If so, this might raise a problem for any all-Ireland League whereby Northern clubs would have to outbid their Southern counterparts when it comes to paying wages (i.e. in order to equalise their take home pay).

All other things being equal, a player would surely sooner accept e.g. €750 per week from Dundalk than £500 pw from Newry City. There might be other financial implications we haven't thought about, as well. For example, is it correct that VAT is not levied on gate receipts for sporting events in the Republic, the way it is in NI?

Also, differing levels of Government support (e.g. for facilities), or tighter/more lenient regulation, might also serve to prevent a level playing field?

How do Derry City fare at present?

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Professional sportsplayers in the Republic are entitled to a partial tax rebate after a specified period (10 years ?) if they ahev remain based in the state continuously throughout that period. In practice, this only has a limited impact upon footballers - mostly those who are towards the end of the specified period and looking at a significant rebate, who then beome unwilling to leave the Republic. City players can get round this by living in Donegal.

Clubs in the Republic also don't pay VAT on gate receipts, unlike in the north, which is another small benefit for the south.

The reality of having 2 different political jurisdictions on a small island is that inequity between the two across varying spheres of life is almost inevitable. Closer tax-harmonisation north and south would make sense for a whole host of mutual reasons, and not just football.

Derry City

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Professional sportsplayers in the Republic are entitled to a partial tax rebate after a specified period (10 years ?) if they ahev remain based in the state continuously throughout that period. In practice, this only has a limited impact upon footballers - mostly those who are towards the end of the specified period and looking at a significant rebate, who then beome unwilling to leave the Republic. City players can get round this by living in Donegal.Derry City

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I believe professional sports people can reclaim 40% of the tax they paid in 10 highest earning years. It is meant to be a sort of pension. I am not sure if need to be spend 10 continuous years as I presume could claim for 2 years if only played in the ROI for that period.

IMO it was introduced for horse racing industry (as if it needs any more hand outs) but likely to benefit rugby players a lot too.

An all ireland league would be wonderful. I really believe it would move the game way up in standard.

The only thing is though there is a secetarian element in the IFA who would not touch this with a barge pole. They would prefer to carry on as a poor league rather than merge with "fenians".

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Originally Posted by kingdomkerry

An all ireland league would be wonderful. I really believe it would move the game way up in standard.

The only thing is though there is a secetarian element in the IFA who would not touch this with a barge pole. They would prefer to carry on as a poor league rather than merge with "fenians".

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Its not a merger. Nobody is being forced into it.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

This issue is there at the minute so an all Ireland League isn't going to change anything in terms of the tax situation.

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I suppose you're right as far as Derry City are concerned, but arguably they are in the Eircom and suffering any associated financial inequality against other Eircom teams, by choice. That is, they could always opt* to return to the Irish League.

However, if you were to instigate a new League where the operating costs of, say, 40% of the teams were (inevitably and unavoidably) significantly higher than the other 60% of teams, then that's not really a very good basis to be starting off on. After all, the whole principle of any League is surely that every team should start the season with an equal chance of winning (even if, in practice, that is never going to happen)?

And it's not just income tax and VAT we're talking about. If there should be significant differences in Government support for, or regulation restricting, clubs on either side of the border (e.g. the Dublin Government providing significantly more funding for stadia etc), this would surely exacerbate the inequity?

I only point this out, since there is huge resentment in NI amongst the other senior clubs that that Linfield (only) receive a huge income from the IFA for renting out Windsor Park for internationals and cup finals etc



* - Disregarding, for the moment, all the other "baggage", that is. :cool:

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

I only point this out, since there is huge resentment in NI amongst the other senior clubs that that Linfield (only) receive a huge income from the IFA for renting out Windsor Park for internationals and cup finals etc

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Maybe those other senior Irish League clubs should be asking themselves WTF the IFA did with their 85% share of the spoils?:rolleyes:.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Professional sportsplayers in the Republic are entitled to a partial tax rebate after a specified period (10 years ?) if they ahev remain based in the state continuously throughout that period. In practice, this only has a limited impact upon footballers - mostly those who are towards the end of the specified period and looking at a significant rebate, who then beome unwilling to leave the Republic. City players can get round this by living in Donegal.

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Not so easy for players in other parts of NI, though!

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Clubs in the Republic also don't pay VAT on gate receipts, unlike in the north, which is another small benefit for the south.

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I know few clubs can rely solely on gate receipts for their income, nonetheless, it will likely be the best supported NI teams which would be in any new League, partly in the hope that the higher standard would in turn encourage higher crowds. At which point 17.5% VAT ceases to be such a "small" issue - it's hardly equable if e.g. Newry have to charge their home fans 17.5% more when they host Dundalk, than Dundalk have to do when they host the return fixture, merely to generate the same revenue.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

The reality of having 2 different political jurisdictions on a small island is that inequity between the two across varying spheres of life is almost inevitable. Closer tax-harmonisation north and south would make sense for a whole host of mutual reasons, and not just football.

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You may well be right about that, but that's another argument for another forum. In the meantime, if this proposed new League is going to attract equal enthusiasm from both sides of the border, it may have to find a solution to such inequalities itself, since there is no way the UK Government is going to alter its whole tax system for the sake of a few semi-professional football clubs! :eek:

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Maybe those other senior Irish League clubs should be asking themselves WTF the IFA did with their 85% share of the spoils?:rolleyes:.

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Oh ffs! :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by TheBoss

Liechtenstein does not have a national league

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They've gotten special dispensation for that, basically because of their size. They have to have a Cup competition though, which is why every year FC Vaduz hammer someone 8-0 in the final.

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Originally Posted by Postman

They're dead right to be looking to somehow circumvent the wage cap. It's an unfair system, conceptualised to stop crazy chairmen committing financial suicide. All things are not equal in the world of football and to try create this situation is ridiculous. At this moment in time Pats, Bohs, Drogs and Cork have all the cash. We may not like it but we have to accept it. We can all bleet on about the perils of property developers but this is the route that these clubs have chosen take. Be it on their heads if they fail.

The reality is that the eircom league's top clubs are competing for players with clubs in England's league 1 and 2 . How can they compete with a wage cap slapped on their heads? Isolated national wage caps are nonsense as competition is not limited to Ireland. With proper punishments for insolvency, wreckless trading or any financial irregularities, wage caps wouldn't be necessary. In other words, clubs need to have enough sense themsleves to know what wages they can afford. If they don't then it's their necks on the line.

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Wow. This has to be one of the stupidest posts on foot.ie in a while. And the gas thing is, you actually hit the nail on the head when you say "conceptualised to stop crazy chairmen committing financial suicide", but you then argue in favour of letting this happen?!

Implosions like Shels and Dublin City plunge the league into farce, prevent steady growth and give barstoolers and the media another reason to knock it. The league has now lost - possibly forever - the possibility of a strong Shels side, for example. You won't find clubs coming into the league who can get even 1000 attendances (Wexford did well this season, but once the novelty factor wears off, their attendances will fade away), and now the league has let one die at the hands of a director on an ego trip. The league is weaker because Shels are gone, but you reckon Drogheda, St Pat's, Bohs, Cork, whoever else is in this group, should be allowed spend to their hearts' content until they reach the exact same situation?!

You also say Pat's, Drogs, etc have the cash. Not true. The backers have the cash. Big difference. If the club had the cash, they wouldn't be running up huge losses spending it.

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Originally Posted by kingdomkerry

The only thing is though there is a secetarian element in the IFA who would not touch this with a barge pole. They would prefer to carry on as a poor league rather than merge with "fenians".

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:D

Brilliant.

I always look forward to your incisive and informed contributions to such threads.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Oh ffs! :rolleyes:

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I can see the WC Qualifiers being somewhat costly for the IFA.

The GAA are no dozers.;)

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Originally Posted by derm

The fairest way would be through sporting merit. Say the top 6 teams in the eL and top 4 in the IL gain automatic entry to the new league. Then a mini league (like the champions league or setanta cup 1st round) could supply the remaining 6 teams. The big problem with this would be the differences in the playing seasons. Perhaps there'll be a year of 'spring soccer' (IL starts earlier, eL starts later or vv) before all teams migrate to either summer or winter football in the brand new league?

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Seeing as it's the "big clubs" leading the way with the AIL League they'll make up some criteria that will ensure they all get in.

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Originally Posted by passinginterest

On the question of how this affects the national teams, has it not been pointed out in the past that a national league is not required as long as a national association and national cup competition remains? Basically as long as the FAI and IFA cups are still played for the national teams will not be affected. Isn't this what happens in some of the smaller countries like Andorra? Sorry if I'm totally wrong, but nearly sure it was mentioned before.

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FIFA have also allowed a precident in allowing Toronto FC to play in MLS with no penalisation of the Canadian or American national sides.

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Originally Posted by backtowalsall

FIFA have also allowed a precident in allowing Toronto FC to play in MLS with no penalisation of the Canadian or American national sides.

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That's special dispensation though. FIFA are hardly going to allow this country dispensation because of few clubs cried about the wage cap.

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Originally Posted by backtowalsall

FIFA have also allowed a precident in allowing Toronto FC to play in MLS with no penalisation of the Canadian or American national sides.

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Ditto that New Zealand team in the A League.

I assume Jim Roddy's behind all this? If so, it's about ten times further away than this mysterious group is making out.

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Originally Posted by DmanDmythDledge

That's special dispensation though. FIFA are hardly going to allow this country dispensation because of few clubs cried about the wage cap.

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Thats a point. Colin Healy will know all to well that a rule for one isn't always the same for another. (Javier Mascherano probably has no idea though)

That said, theres a lot of good will in the international community for this sort of thing. Bertie, Ian and Martin could get it done with a few phone calls if it came to the bit. If it is presented as a football helping moves towards peace the "fair play" and "football for hope" mobs in FIFA would lap it up. Just as they did everything they could do to convince North Korea to host a game in the 2002 World Cup.

Just had a conversation at work with two colleagues about this (on foot of the piece in the paper) - both nominally LoI fans (Bohs and Dundalk) although i doubt either have been to a match in 10 years; both asked me in tones of disgust if I'd like to see Linfield in Dalymount...... I said yes of course, and that i felt I had more in common with Linfield/ Glens fans than Celtic fans from Dublin; this provoked derision. Thing is, both are SF voters - they want a united Ireland, but are squeamish at the idea of a south Belfast team in an all -Ireland league; makes you wonder what kind of republic they want....

What I'd be afraid is that it would raise all these atavistic feelings outside the cohort of current LoI/IL supporters

Through the Setanta Cup, we in the Island have had a load of exposure to each other, and in doing so, a lot of the bogey men have been proven false. At the end of the day we all are what we are.

I truely believe an AIL could work very easily, and in fact, I also think the FAs might welcome another body running senior football (with their blessing obviously).. as it would give them the chance to stick to what they really care about ie the National teams. Other countrys manage to do it, and with the amount of football teams here, in both leagues, a Northern Ireland Championship and Rep of Ireland Championship could still be run under the auspices of the FA's, and the winners could be promoted to the AIL (provided they meet standards set of course).

At the end of the day I want my club to be the best it can be, and if that means moving to an AIL set up, then so be it.. but I support my club and country, and so the National team stuff needs to be the first thing on the agenda to be sorted. There would be no point leaving it till last, with everything agreed, only to find out UEFA have said that we could only have one team, it would waste money and would mean the immediate pull out of nearly all IL teams invited.

BTW thanks KingdomKerry for the laugh.. never, even in your weird roundabout way, thought we would be called a fenian team.. the times certainly have moved on (goes outside to make sure that it is the Union flag on the flagpole on the house);):D

There was also a story on this in yesterday's Belfast Telegraph:

"Secret All-Ireland league talks at 'advanced' stage

Tuesday, December 11, 2007

Advanced discussions about the introduction of an All Ireland soccer league have taken place between clubs from both sides of the border and interested stakeholders, with the intention of drafting a New Year proposal that will be too good for the FAI and IFA to refuse.

Top eircom League sides have been involved in secret talks with counterparts in Northern Ireland and with the backing of significant third party encouragement in the hope of bringing the project to fruition."

Rest of the story at: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sp...cle3242236.ece

Much the same story - it is an Independent News & Media publication too.