Dawkins is seen at Mass-what a turnaround.

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Originally Posted by jebus

It wasn't in the God Delusion, it was in relation to a lecture he gave recently I believe, I may be wrong but thats what has been reported. Either way using monopolise is ******** and is vaguely anti-semitic, but what you said is about as close as an admission that Dawkins may have got it wrong as I could possibly hope to get from one of his acolytes so I'm happy

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It's not anti-semetic and I don't disagree with his substantive point. I just said I wouldn't have used the word monopolise because it's the incorrect word. Note I said incorrect ...not mischievious, not hateful, not inciteful or malicious. So yes, saints be fcuking praised, Dawkins got something wrong. Still happy?

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Originally Posted by jebus

I never said I agree with the religious right running things (I'm pro-choice, pro-basic human rights, pro-sexual equality, pro-belief equality) equally I don't agree that atheists would make a better job of it, I just don't think that anyone can or should say that they would be more qualified to run this show based on their belief system, what would be next Dawkins and his ilk start outlawing religious beliefs?

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You're raising the bar for yourself in the nonsense stakes now. Everyone with any political or religious belief reckons they'd make a better job of it than the other guy. So you're demanding a higher standard for Dawkins and Atheists in general and then sliding into hystionics about outlawing religions.

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Originally Posted by jebus

Hitler didn't believe in Christ, but he knew how to use religious beliefs for his own gain and so did so, but you've missed the point completely here. Hitler (amongst others) was thrown in as a valid example that atheists running things might not always equate to the government being better, which is what Dawkins seemed to be getting at

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So you agree he believed in belief? Now why would and atheist believe in belief? In pure humble speculation I'll chuck in a Dawkins quote (paraphrased) of my own "...without religion good people will do good things, bad people will do bad things and bad people will occasionally do good things ...but in order to get good people to do bad things ...you need religion or something very like it."
By the way I could likely spend the day running through the names of profoundly religious despots many of whom based their admin style on their beliefs and no small amount of them still in office.

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Originally Posted by jebus

If they start saying that your beliefs are nonsense and that you're somewhat braindead for believing them, and then they go on..and on...and on...about it then yes I'd say they are, and I would equally call them on it. Point me in the direction of the board member that has gone on...and on...and on...about how stupid you are and I'll gladly go have a word

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I'll mind myself thanks. Mercifully haven't found anybody on this thread going on and on and on and on and....

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Originally Posted by eamo1

FAO lionel:i read a nice paragraph in a book just last night that made me think of you,ill post it tomorrow and then i eagerly await your reply.

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I'm veritably chomping at the bit I'm sure. :D

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Originally Posted by CTID

1) The stuff that went bang in the big bang... where did it come from?
Scientists aren't 100% clear on this one.
2) Pol Pot, Joseph Stalin, and Adolf Hitler had two things in common the first was they were the worst mass murderers of the 20th century, What was the second one? Don't know?, Well the second thing they had in common was.. THEY DIDN'T SUBSCRIBE TO ANY RELIGION !

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1. I'm sure I don't know and scientists, who are far from 100% sure, would be queing up to talk to me if I did know. But just because I don't have the answer and may never have the answer doesn't mean that a. the answer isn't out there or b. that I should tie my boat to badly translated archaic middle eastern folk tales in it's absence.

2. dealt with previously

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Originally Posted by eamo1

I didnt say you needed a religion to be moral but if you dont have one then what do you base moral's on?????
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What's right and wrong. Do you really need a priest to know hat is right and what is wrong? What the Catholic church finds immoral includes using contraception. Do you agree? Or do you take the pieces that you innately know are immoral and wrong i.e. murder etc and use your own sense.

Why do you need something to base morals on outside the basic this is right and this is wrong.

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Originally Posted by CollegeTillIDie

I have two questions for atheists/non-believers.
1) The stuff that went bang in the big bang... where did it come from?
Scientists aren't 100% clear on this one.
2) Pol Pot, Joseph Stalin, and Adolf Hitler had two things in common the first was they were the worst mass murderers of the 20th century, What was the second one? Don't know?, Well the second thing they had in common was.. THEY DIDN'T SUBSCRIBE TO ANY RELIGION ! Hitler , a lapsed catholic,was in to mystical mumbo jumbo influenced by many things. As an aside dietary experts reckon that the lack of protein in the vegetarian diets available in the 1920's 30's and 40's may account for his symptoms of maniacal behaviour while he was in power.
Stalin was a lapsed member of the Orthodox faith and Pol Pot was a lapsed Buddhist, and he was also a vegetarian as far as I know .

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1. I have no idea. I don't pretend to know. But not knowing wont make me believe it was a higher being. There was a time people didnt understand the weather, didnt understand the world was round etc etc.

We may not know now but that doesnt mean we wont in the future. Personally I don't see a reason to belief in one thing based on not understanding another.

But am completely in agreement with you that everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and while I will discuss mine I would never attempt to force them on anyone

2. I cant find the question in there, but I dont see how their atheism is related to their actions, any more than a priest abusing a child is because he's catholic. There are evil people in every walk of life and in every religion or non religion. They are for the most parts not evil because of their beliefs although beliefs are regularly used for an excuse for what is done. People make choices you dont have to be religious to know whats right and wrong, and being religious certainly doesnt mean you do know the difference between right and wrong

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Originally Posted by eamo1

I didnt say you needed a religion to be moral but if you dont have one then what do you base moral's on?????

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I was unaware that Christian religions teach morals. Is this the do as I say not as I do rule? How do you explain the sexual abuse & subsequent institutionalised cover ups? Is this the problem with relying on someone for morals? If the priest does not say something is wrong then is it? Most Catholics seem to pick & choose so do they like some morals & not the other ones?

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Originally Posted by eamo1

richard dawkins did have a heated debate with david quinn on the ryan.tub show on rte radio.dawkins was stammering and stuttering when quinn asked him if he doesnt believe in God then what does he base moral decisions on etc?dawkins was shaken by this question and AVOIDED answering it by cleverly changing the subject.a tougher interviewer would have pressed him to try answer it,maybe he couldnt though:).

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That's a pretty irrelevant point. To insinuate that people without religious or more specifically Christian belief cannot create or abide by their own moral code is ridiculous. There are many atheists who live decent lives by a Christian or general moral standard. Conversely there are many Christians who do the opposite. I just don't see where you're coming from with this point.

I was told that dawkings daughter or grand daughter was christened (Iasked this on the last thread but it wasnt answered), which would be a bit of a surprise

anyway I really think he is brilliant, and love wacthing him on the box. Have yet to read any of his books though

That Quinn fella gives me a right pain, he is an idiot...........and a smug one at that, i doubt very much if dawkins would be outwitted by him

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Originally Posted by bennocelt

anyway I really think he is brilliant, and love wacthing him on the box. Have yet to read any of his books though.

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Reading the God Delusion & its not a light read...

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Originally Posted by bennocelt

I was told that dawkings daughter or grand daughter was christened (Iasked this on the last thread but it wasnt answered), which would be a bit of a surprise

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Not especially. My parents are devout RCs, their grandson isn't baptised and unless he asks to be he wont be. They don't like that I'm sure but they got over it (quicker than I gave them credit for I must say).

I'm told Billy Connollys grandson is, along with his da, a season ticket holder at Ibrox. The sky didn't fall in and no-ones banned from the Big Yins house over it.

Eamo, there is a whole chapter devoted to the morality question in The God Delusion.

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

Stop blaspheming against the Invisible Earth Supporting Rooster.

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I couldn't agree more. He'll be getting very angry at all this and He scares me when He's angry :(

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Originally Posted by bennocelt

I was told that dawkings daughter or grand daughter was christened (Iasked this on the last thread but it wasnt answered), which would be a bit of a surprise

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Not sure why it would be that much of a surprise? I know many organised religions down play the role of women in the home, but very possible that his wife is Christian so he respected her beliefs, and I'm sure his son/daughter and their partner are old enough to make up their own mind about it with regard his grandchild.

Sure my own daughter will be christened, as I respect my wife's beliefs. Personally I'd like a pagan naming ceremony (to the Rooster), but then that won't get you into the local state school the same way as a baptismal cert will.

We could set up our own Roosterfarian schools!

:).so Lionel you said ye took back sundays and are taking back christmas,why??what did "we" do with Sundays and Christmas that was so bad,a day of rest where you werent dragged around shops by your girl etc.And christmas,a time of joy and peace which charities use to love as they would get loads of oppurtunities to collect money.now everyone spends their money on rip off priced presents that will be forgotten about in a few months,material things bring happiness,but only God brings real Joy.Answer the qs,what do ye NEED Sundays and Christmas for??????
What i mean with reguard to the religious&moral question is your voice inside you that tells you whats "right" and "wrong",where does that come from??its your consciencness yes?so we believe your consciencness comes from God,where do ye think it comes from??
my net connection isnt great these days hence my absence,but ill keep coming back when i can.

I always celebrate Yule, with mistletoe and holly. Celebrating the Winter Solstice on the 25th December is what my forefathers have done for centuries BC.

Here's an article from the Atheist Alliance on xmas:

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The Winter Solstice & Christmas

The Winter Solstice is the shortest day of the year, when the sun reaches its lowest point on the horizon. ("Solstice" literally means "sun stop.") In ancient times, pagans celebrated this day as a "rebirth" of the sun or a sun god, and the beginning of a new year.

In some cultures, the Winter Solstice was also a time to celebrate the birth or rebirth of a savior man-god (who was often connected with the sun). He was usually believed to be the offspring of a god father and a goddess or human mother, who was often a virgin.

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Eamo, some things you need to know about xmas

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Originally Posted by eamo1

What i mean with reguard to the religious&moral question is your voice inside you that tells you whats "right" and "wrong",where does that come from??its your consciencness yes?so we believe your consciencness comes from God,where do ye think it comes from??

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So you believe that only religious people are able to tell "right" from "wrong"?

People who don't believe in God have no basis on which to determine "right" and "wrong"?

My conscience, my sense of right and wrong, comes from the understanding of what results my actions will cause regarding myself and others.

what i said was where does your conscience come from if not from God??
And also,with reguard to the whole big bang theory lads.the answer is pretty obvious i would have thought,the very fact that there is a creation means theres a creator!!!the chair your sitting on right now(creation) was obviously made by someone(creator),this is a universal truth in ALL things lads,ill explain this concept to a 10 year old and they will understand it,so why cant ye????
theres a website which offers 250,000 dollars reward to anyone who comes up with 100% scientific concrete undisputable evidence with reguard to the big bang theory,ye should go try claim it.
im enjoying this discussion,i just wish my net connection allowed me to contribute to it more often.

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Originally Posted by eamo1

what i said was where does your conscience come from if not from God??

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Which one?

Conscience probably comes from belief in right & wrong as opposed to fear of supernatural being(s).

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Originally Posted by eamo1

theres a website which offers 250,000 dollars reward to anyone who comes up with 100% scientific concrete undisputable evidence with reguard to the big bang theory,ye should go try claim it.

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That must be the sister site of the one offering reward for proof that there is a God. Besides I have faith in the big bang.

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Originally Posted by eamo1

And also,with reguard to the whole big bang theory lads.the answer is pretty obvious i would have thought,the very fact that there is a creation means theres a creator!!!the chair your sitting on right now(creation) was obviously made by someone(creator),this is a universal truth in ALL things lads,ill explain this concept to a 10 year old and they will understand it,so why cant ye????

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Who created the creator?

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Originally Posted by eamo1

what i said was where does your conscience come from if not from God??

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I would suspect that morality is useful in evolutionary terms, easier for societies to form, etc. Asking where your conscience comes from if not from a god is little different to asking why a volcano exploded if not because of the fire god.

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And also,with regard to the whole big bang theory lads.the answer is pretty obvious i would have thought,the very fact that there is a creation means theres a creator!!!the chair your sitting on right now(creation) was obviously made by someone(creator),this is a universal truth in ALL things lads,ill explain this concept to a 10 year old and they will understand it,so why cant ye????

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In fairness a 10-year-old's understanding of the universe is hardly a useful place to start in a belief in a god. Going by that criterion, Santa must bring kids presents at Christmas rather than their parents.

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Originally Posted by eamo1

what i said was where does your conscience come from if not from God??
And also,with reguard to the whole big bang theory lads.the answer is pretty obvious i would have thought,the very fact that there is a creation means theres a creator!!!the chair your sitting on right now(creation) was obviously made by someone(creator),this is a universal truth in ALL things lads,ill explain this concept to a 10 year old and they will understand it,so why cant ye????
theres a website which offers 250,000 dollars reward to anyone who comes up with 100% scientific concrete undisputable evidence with reguard to the big bang theory,ye should go try claim it.
im enjoying this discussion,i just wish my net connection allowed me to contribute to it more often.

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No one here has claimed they can explain creation, bar you. Not understanding it now though means nothing really.

Your 'so why cant ye' comment is petty and childish. You may be able to explain this concept to a child and they would believe it but this does not make it true.

Im not as ignorant to believe I know everything, I accept the possibility that I am wrong and there is a God and if i was presented proof Id accept I was wrong. However I havnt seen any and so Il continue to disbelieve.

Do you not find it ironic that you ask for proof of the big bang while providing no proof for your alternative of a God