You players capable of higher standard than LOI/IL

Printable View

Show 40 post(s) from this thread on one page

10/05/2007, 8:06 PM
AnnaghRed

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

The Irish League has been a happy dumping ground for Derry City rejects for years (particularly the unfit and overweight ones).

How come you have at least four former IL players in your current first team then?
11/05/2007, 9:13 AM
Steve Bruce

Quote:

Originally Posted by GavinZac

A few years before that, the eL would have been embarrassed by them, as I said. Nothing embarressing about semi-pro teams losing over two legs, my point is that that time was when the results started improving.
The match was even at home, they didnt have much to offer. Obviously, they seemed to either be unmotivated or playing for the draw, but as i said, we'll never know what might have happened in belgrade! they probably would have still had too much for us, but then their players were being rated in the millions and tens of millions by premiership managers at that point.

Whats funny is Stevo's insistence that the reason we started winning was summer soccer, when Keflavik, Gothenburg, Malmo and Djurgarden also all play summer soccer and were beaten by eL sides.

No my insistance is your regulary getting good results since Summer football.

The Irish League has had many famous results, but now we are left behind. LOI are keeping up and in ways making small but definate inroads in Europe.

But to compare Linfields performance to LOI performance in Europe is silly as it is not a like for like situation. If we could play our European games in October we would hammer most teams because every season, we out play our european counterparts every season, but because of lack of match practise, we make silly mistakes, our players get fatigued and we fade in the last 10 minutes. In October this wouldn't happen.

I'm not taking away from LOI clubs for there acheivements, I'm just putting a bit of perspective here, something that you seem to lack.

Also I never said that the top teams where Conference standard, I said the rest of the league, eg Dublin City.
11/05/2007, 9:16 AM
derm

The only real way to compare leagues is by comparing like with like, however there are some hints.

As to like-for-like, Sweden is another full-time summertime league, and have been knocked out of Europe by eL clubs every time the two leagues have met in the last three years. Two of the teams knocked out (Malmo and Djurgarden) went on to be Swedish Champions. This suggests at the very least that the two leagues are on a par, despite more money, facilities and crowds in the Swedish league.

As for hints:
- the eL has become a hunting ground for Championship and SPL managers, mostly because they can get quality players at a fraction of what they'd pay elsewhere.

- many former eL players are playing at SPL, Championship level or above

Facilities and crowds are affected by other factors and are an irrelevance as to the quality of the league. Cymro do you think Swansea would be getting the same crowds if they played in the Welsh league? If so why don't they?

The Setanta cup was set up to negate the advantages of the fulltime setup down south. That said Linfield have shown that they could easily mix it up in the eL but unless they went pro I don't think they'd challenge over a season.
Now before knickers get twisted I say this purely because I have seen the effects that going fulltime achieves.
11/05/2007, 9:18 AM
Dodge

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Bruce

If we could play our European games in October we would hammer most teams

I'm just putting a bit of perspective here, something that you seem to lack.

Seriously, you might want a bit of perspective yourself there mate. Up until about 10 years ago first rounds of europe were player in late September/Early October and you weren't hammering anybody.

Quote:

Also I never said that the top teams where Conference standard, I said the rest of the league, eg Dublin City.

If you're going to give an example when havinga dig a tthe league, you might want to use a team thats actually in it. As you've used an extinct team, you really shouldn't be commenting on the league at all
11/05/2007, 9:19 AM
derm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Bruce

No my insistance is your regulary getting good results since Summer football.

Not only Summer Football, the improvement in performances have also come about from the benefits of the fulltime structures most top eL clubs have in place.
11/05/2007, 9:24 AM
Steve Bruce

Quote:

Originally Posted by derm

The only real way to compare leagues is by comparing like with like, however there are some hints.

As to like-for-like, Sweden is another full-time summertime league, and have been knocked out of Europe by eL clubs every time the two leagues have met in the last three years. Two of the teams knocked out (Malmo and Djurgarden) went on to be Swedish Champions. This suggests at the very least that the two leagues are on a par, despite more money, facilities and crowds in the Swedish league.

As for hints:
- the eL has become a hunting ground for Championship and SPL managers, mostly because they can get quality players at a fraction of what they'd pay elsewhere.

- many former eL players are playing at SPL, Championship level or above

Facilities and crowds are affected by other factors and are an irrelevance as to the quality of the league. Cymro do you think Swansea would be getting the same crowds if they played in the Welsh league? If so why don't they?

The Setanta cup was set up to negate the advantages of the fulltime setup down south. That said Linfield have shown that they could easily mix it up in the eL but unless they went pro I don't think they'd challenge over a season.
Now before knickers get twisted I say this purely because I have seen the effects that going fulltime achieves.

Mate I disagree that we wouldn't challange for the season, but that is my opinion. That is the best post I have seen so far. Balance and although I disagree a valid opinion.
11/05/2007, 9:28 AM
Steve Bruce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dodge

Seriously, you might want a bit of perspective yourself there mate. Up until about 10 years ago first rounds of europe were player in late September/Early October and you weren't hammering anybody.

If you're going to give an example when havinga dig a tthe league, you might want to use a team thats actually in it. As you've used an extinct team, you really shouldn't be commenting on the league at all

You'll find that we quite often got past the first rounds and it was longer than 10 years ago when the games where early october probably 15. Also it was more of a free draw then and you could have got anyone outside the very top teams. Now we are drawn with teams with similar ability, so the whole thing is completely different from 15 years ago.

Also I used Dublin City because I know they haven't any fans to upset, as there seems a lot of people here are easily annoyed so i avoided that on purpose. But if you want a different example Shamrock Rovers.
11/05/2007, 9:30 AM
Steve Bruce

Quote:

Originally Posted by derm

Not only Summer Football, the improvement in performances have also come about from the benefits of the fulltime structures most top eL clubs have in place.

I'm not saying Summer football is the be all and end all of your success, certainly you have improved the fitness and speed of your players which has helped no end. I can see the difference between the speed of IL to LOI and it is a league apart. There is only one club in our league who Linfield has faced who was our best opponent this season was Cliftonville. Unfortunately for then they didn't have the squad to keep the pressure up to the end.
11/05/2007, 9:37 AM
Dodge

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Bruce

I'm not saying Summer football is the be all and end all of your success, certainly you have improved the fitness and speed of your players which has helped no end. I can see the difference between the speed of IL to LOI and it is a league apart. There is only one club in our league who Linfield has faced who was our best opponent this season was Cliftonville. Unfortunately for then they didn't have the squad to keep the pressure up to the end.

But to use your logic, the LOI teams faced you in our preseason?

Anyway you're kidding yourself if you think you'd HAMMER teams in Europe. I'm not getting into a "My da's bigger than yours" type argument than you seem to love (I'm sure dcfcsteve will be along soon to talk to you) so I'm leaving it there

Good luck on Saturday
11/05/2007, 9:52 AM
Steve Bruce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dodge

But to use your logic, the LOI teams faced you in our preseason?

Anyway you're kidding yourself if you think you'd HAMMER teams in Europe. I'm not getting into a "My da's bigger than yours" type argument than you seem to love (I'm sure dcfcsteve will be along soon to talk to you) so I'm leaving it there

Good luck on Saturday

Hammer might be a bit of an over-exaggeration. But we would beat more teams than lose.

Also the LOI teams where in pre-season, but you had plenty of friendlies. We cannot get teams to play us in friendlies so early on, so you are still fresher and if I'm not mistaken, it is only your first game that is in pre-season teh rest is during your season campaign.

Also I haven't once said the IL is better than the LOI, because even a blind man can see the LOI is better standard. But Linfield would are definately teh standard of your top teams as we have proved against the top teams 3 years in a row.
11/05/2007, 9:55 AM
Dodge

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Bruce

Hammer might be a bit of an over-exaggeration. But we would beat more teams than lose.

You're a fan so you're not unbiased. Summer football wasn't the key, full time football is

Quote:

Also the LOI teams where in pre-season, but you had plenty of friendlies.

Cork had none, Pats had one (Waterford). Assume the others were similar.

Quote:

Also I haven't once said the IL is better than the LOI, because even a blind man can see the LOI is better standard. But Linfield would are definately teh standard of your top teams as we have proved against the top teams 3 years in a row.

Of course you would but its a moot point until you join the big league ;) :D
11/05/2007, 10:09 AM
Steve Bruce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dodge

You're a fan so you're not unbiased. Summer football wasn't the key, full time football is

Cork had none, Pats had one (Waterford). Assume the others were similar.

Of course you would but its a moot point until you join the big league ;) :D

Summer football helps greatly, because you are fitter and more sharp. I think that both factors are very important. The results show both work hand in hand very well. But your right Full-time is a massive factor.

Also we don't need to join foreign leagues to prove our status:D . We compete well in our own league and when we play our Southern counterparts, we more than compete. Unfortunately it is only us in Northern Ireland that do. Hopefully next season with Cliftonville in the Setanta cup we will get more results.

When our league is reduced to 10 or 12 teams we will be more competitive to.

Unfortunately we have to wait for the test of time before I can back that up comprehensively.

But anyway, we will never agree, so I'll agree to disagree about a lot of things.
11/05/2007, 12:20 PM
derm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Bruce

Mate I disagree that we wouldn't challange for the season, but that is my opinion. That is the best post I have seen so far. Balance and although I disagree a valid opinion.

As Dodge said, you're a fan so of course you'd disagree ;) But we've seen it from clubs that were forced to revert to semi-pro - the inevitable slide down the table. By no means a small part of this is that semi-pro teams tend to lose their better players to the fulltime clubs.
11/05/2007, 12:49 PM
TonyD

Quote:

Originally Posted by gustavo

It's a bit silly to be constantly comparing ourselves to the English leagues , thats what the barstoolers do in disparaging terms , we should be looking to make the league flourish on its own terms and not to be constantly looking across the water as a barometer of its success.

Well said Gustavo - that's the most sensible post in this thread by a country mile.
11/05/2007, 12:55 PM
jebus

Quote:

Originally Posted by derm

- the eL has become a hunting ground for Championship and SPL managers, mostly because they can get quality players at a fraction of what they'd pay elsewhere.

Jesus people start sniffing around O'Donovan, Gamble and a few Derry lads and suddenly this is a hunting ground.

Quote:

Originally Posted by derm

Facilities and crowds are affected by other factors and are an irrelevance as to the quality of the league.

But when you're debating where certain teams, i.e. Cork City, would feature in the English leagues then facilities and crowds are all important, without them you can never maintain yourself at Championship level, and argubly you'd struggle at League One level
11/05/2007, 1:04 PM
Risteard

Quote:

Originally Posted by jebus

Jesus people start sniffing around O'Donovan, Gamble and a few Derry lads and suddenly this is a hunting ground.

In fairness, you've omitted a few there.
Doyle,
Long,
Bennett,
O'Callaghan,
Murphy,
Molloy,
Keegan,
Dillon,
Dicker,
Ward,
J.Byrne,
Daryl Murphy,
Ciaran Martyn,
Ryan.

Probably more i can't think of but they're not being sniffed on.
They're gone.
And those dogs ****ed all over us.*

*Couldn't resist the metaphor.
11/05/2007, 1:06 PM
jebus

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risteard

In fairness, you've omitted a few there.

Fair enough, I was talking about players currently being looked at, I still don't think that makes us a Championship/SPL 'quality' breeding ground though
11/05/2007, 2:16 PM
Steve Bruce

Quote:

Originally Posted by derm

As Dodge said, you're a fan so of course you'd disagree ;) But we've seen it from clubs that were forced to revert to semi-pro - the inevitable slide down the table. By no means a small part of this is that semi-pro teams tend to lose their better players to the fulltime clubs.

The thing that makes linfield different to any team in the LOI is the fact that there are no alternative to go to unless you go down south. So we are able to attract players who good calibre.

But Linfield are now reverting to full-time anyway with 6 players full-time and possibly 3 or 4 turning in the summer. So we'll soon be able to compete with LOI in that perspective and hopefully we'll get a bit of respect for our results.
11/05/2007, 2:59 PM
Cymro

Quote:

Originally Posted by derm

Facilities and crowds are affected by other factors and are an irrelevance as to the quality of the league. Cymro do you think Swansea would be getting the same crowds if they played in the Welsh league? If so why don't they?

They're not an irrelevance as Swansea would never get 12,000 in the Welsh Premier, because the opposition simply isn't as attractive as playing the likes of Nottingham Forest.

I would generally agree with you as to your 'crowds don't reflect league quality' point though, as I had the same debate with dcfcsteve the other day.

However this is obviously within a certain level of reason. Cork's gates may not confine them to say, Conference level purely because of their gates (though I haven't seen them play, so can't really comment on this) however, they also will never challenge the top, top European sides until they're averaging gates in at least the five figures, in my opinion at least.
11/05/2007, 3:07 PM
Cymro

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dodge

Summer football wasn't the key, full time football is

Full time football does not equal success in Europe. There is plenty of evidence for that in Wales.

TNS have been full time for years yet have not so much as won a tie.

On the other hand Rhyl and Carmarthen Town who operate on much lower budgets and are part time have enjoyed success, albeit limited, in Europe.

And, besides that, you'd have to be pretty ignorant not to see the fairly substantial change in Irish results since the move to summer football. If summer football isn't the key then the clubs must have improved a huge amount in the space of about 12 months.

Show 40 post(s) from this thread on one page