Irish Sunderland fan here. Debate very interesting

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Originally Posted by irishboy99

I think that your arguments are lost on my generation of supporter but if you feel that you can influence the next generation I would feel that has some merit but the clubs need to go to the schools and the community in a much bigger way and in a much wider radius, offer free tickets, invite inward investment for a share of the club, run it with real business professionals, find a way to offer good contracts to players who want to go to England (a bit like Leinster in the Rugby). My generation is lost. The bug bit for me when I watched a game in a big stadium(anfield) watching very passionate supporters(sunderland) with great facilities.
The next generation are there for the taking but alot has to change. As for being a consumer then if it means paying for my ticket, my flight, my B and B then I am a consumer but I regard myself as a supporter as well and if you are a better supporter than me then fair play to you

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On grounds. My brother plays for Kildare GAA and Moorefield. I travel to some of the most pathetic grounds on the planets to see him. Health and safety disasters. Think about the toilets in Tolka Park - now imagine you are sitting in it watching a match. Not many GAA grounds would get a UEFA License, but thousands at times flock to them. Would you refuse to see Sunderland is they were playing away to a non-League ground?

Actually, what constitutes good facilities? Some of the Dublin grounds are grand.

Now, don't get me started on the consumer thing. You consume what is essentially a media product for more Irish Sunderland "fans". The media feed you the stories about what Roy said today, and Sky throw the match on. You travel to the odd game. Cut the media out of the equation though. You wouldn't have a clue what's going on. You wouldn't be able to see many matches at all. That's what makes your "supporting" of Sunderland a media product. A product which the Irish media and Sunderland has profited from a lot, as have Man Utd etc.

So what makes you a supporter?
Well:
-You have actual links to your club, you have an affinity eg. your local club
-You don't miss a game unless there is no chance
-You don't rely on media to support your team
-You actually matter to the club. You are important to it. Not a number in the business plan.
-If the team loses or is getting trashed you can't chage the channel.

I don't choose to support Ireland. I don't choose to support KCFC. It's football, it's your local club. It's not a choice. You can say there isn't one that close to you, but Sunderland is a damn shot further. You are a bandwagon jumper - it doesn't matter if you jumped on the bandwagon in the 80, 90 etc.

I show plenty of interest in the Premiership but at the end of the day home is were the heart is. It's people like you and the thousands of others that shun domestic soccer for British ball that are not soccer supporters. You are media consumers there is no other way about it.

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Originally Posted by Philly

You consume what is essentially a media product for more Irish Sunderland "fans". The media feed you the stories about what Roy said today, and Sky throw the match on. You travel to the odd game. Cut the media out of the equation though. You wouldn't have a clue what's going on. You wouldn't be able to see many matches at all. That's what makes your "supporting" of Sunderland a media product. A product which the Irish media and Sunderland has profited from a lot, as have Man Utd etc.

So what makes you a supporter?
Well:
-You have actual links to your club, you have an affinity eg. your local club
-You don't miss a game unless there is no chance
-You don't rely on media to support your team
-You actually matter to the club. You are important to it. Not a number in the business plan.
-If the team loses or is getting trashed you can't chage the channel.
.

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Your post annoys me v.much. I WAS A FAN before 2006! Read the previous post please. Ok I am calm. Your arguments for being a real fan are your view. They are not the 4 commitments.

And read my post again:
"it doesn't matter if you jumped on the bandwagon in the 80, 90 etc."

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Originally Posted by Philly

I don't choose to support Ireland. I don't choose to support KCFC. It's football, it's your local club. It's not a choice. You can say there isn't one that close to you, but Sunderland is a damn shot further. You are a bandwagon jumper - it doesn't matter if you jumped on the bandwagon in the 80, 90 etc.

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Originally Posted by irishboy99

Your post annoys me v.much. I WAS A FAN before 2006! Read the previous post please. Ok I am calm. Your arguments for being a real fan are your view. They are not the 4 commitments.

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read the bold irish boy

Don't mean to be acting holier than thou by the way.

I don't think anybody would expect you to quit the Sunderland thing either.

I would encourage you to make the trip down to a match or two though, in the next few weeks. Perhaps it would make you realise this is something worth giving your support to. What's the worst that could happen?

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Originally Posted by irishboy99

I think that your arguments are lost on my generation of supporter but if you feel that you can influence the next generation I would feel that has some merit but the clubs need to go to the schools and the community in a much bigger way and in a much wider radius, offer free tickets, invite inward investment for a share of the club, run it with real business professionals, find a way to offer good contracts to players who want to go to England (a bit like Leinster in the Rugby). My generation is lost. The bug bit for me when I watched a game in a big stadium(anfield) watching very passionate supporters(sunderland) with great facilities.
The next generation are there for the taking but alot has to change. As for being a consumer then if it means paying for my ticket, my flight, my B and B then I am a consumer but I regard myself as a supporter as well and if you are a better supporter than me then fair play to you

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Yes i am and i will tell you why with two words. AWAY GAMES. The highlight of you and your ilk is to get to the mecca that is the stadium of light or wherever anfield or old trafford like sheep.Well in my book a supporter supports their team wherever they play home league away league home europe away europe small cup games down the country preseason friendlies in the arsehole of nowhere but that is what is generally classed as supportin a team .Big difference to going "cross the water couple of times like the japanese tourists with cameras and as much merchadise as the exchange rate will allow.".Im sure your happy enough and thats your right but dont forget we are laughing at you the local sunderland supporters are laughing at you and micheal o leary is laughing at you..Oh and in case your wondering there isnt a shred of bitterness in this and do you know why i will be up in derry tomorrow night supporting my local team

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Originally Posted by irishboy99

Your arguments for being a real fan are your view. They are not the 4 commitments.

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the thing is they are not just "his view". Ask any supporter in the world why they follow the team they do and the answer will be pretty similar to that. In fact it can and should be boiled down to the following.

I love the Game.
The club is Local. and/or
There is a History between the club and me (my family).

Ireland is so warped when it comes to football. We proclaim we love the game but the majority of the barstoolers are JUST TOO EFFIN LAZY to go to a game. Everything else is just an excuse. If you love the game and go to see a live match then you will be hooked by the experience, irrespective of facilities, abilities etc. Thats what happened with me. 7/8years back, Tuesday night, league cup game, UCD v Bohs, in Belfield ffs and i have been Bohs ever since. Hooked. English football on the telly just cant compete anymore.

sunderland are only a flash in the pan cos keano is in charge,
in a few years time when fergie hangs up his hair dryer keano will go to man u and sunderland will be forgotten about.

as for quinn, hes only the danial o donnell of sunderland flashing his cash around paying fans taxis just to make himself look good,
the mans more intrested in the horses then wonderland afc.

it will all fall flat on its face.

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Originally Posted by Philly

I don't think anybody would expect you to quit the Sunderland thing either.

I would encourage you to make the trip down to a match or two though, in the next few weeks. Perhaps it would make you realise this is something worth giving your support to. What's the worst that could happen?

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Well I will always go and support the mackems. I have watched Dundalk on occasion but is really necessary.

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Originally Posted by ashbournebohs

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Yes i am and i will tell you why with two words. AWAY GAMES. Well in my book a supporter supports their team wherever they play home league away league home europe away europe small cup games down the country preseason friendlies in the arsehole of nowhere but that is what is generally classed as supportin a team

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I have no argument you are a great supporter. Fair play to you. However those going to clubs in England dont want to compete with you but your club is not THEIR club. If you support your club in that manner then magnificent. I cant do that. However I am not in a whose the best supporter debate. The issues go beyond that. I am trying to put my point across without going down blind alleys. I am tired now. Will try to come back later if there is interest.

first of all, can i just say to irishboy, fair play for coming on and debating, NOBODY should have a problem with him coming on to air his point of view.

having said that, your point of view will never hold merit on this forum, because here, for the most part people understand the fundamentals of football support as it is known the world round. for the real football supporter its not a choice, a decision based on the passion you saw one night in anfield, its a relationship, a sense of identity with your locality and your club. the passion you speak of from the Sunderland supporters you saw that night can be found in any LOI ground on any given weekend, maybe not in the same numbers, but its there. that kind of passion can only come through having a vested interest in the fortunes of your club, your home town team. the good times the bad, the few pound you threw into the half time draw going to support the running of the club. what you did is latch onto that and say "i want to be like those guys" you consumed it if you will, and thus by default you can never really feel the same kind of passion that they do about what is their club.

the baffling thing about you from my perspective is that your from Dublin. you actually had a CHOICE of five clubs, seven if you count drogheda and bray, your argument about not feeling any connection to these clubs is again baffling because any one of those clubs are a few minutes drive away, in my opinion thats connection enough, certainly more of a connection than seeing a club play once and then deciding to support them. i come from Longford, and it is indeed a small provincial backwater. the year i was born longford town fc were admitted to the league of Ireland, despite having existed for sixty years at the time. there was/could only ever be one club for me. thats not coincidence, thats not faith, thats just football. i can just remember a time when flancare park (mullogher as it was then) consisted of what can only be described as a cowshed in one corner and a "terrace":p along the other side. we were probably the worst team in Ireland and ill freely admit that i rarely got to a game, relying on my uncle to bring me when he could. to this day i miss as many games as i catch with work commitments, but i still cant shake off that attraction to my club, the sense of identity, the familliar faces, the good times had and the bad to come.

one little thing to point out to you. the cost of one trip to sunderland would probably see you into any LOI ground for a couple of months, i urge you, before you write us off as a bunch of bitter lunatics, to take in a few consecutive games, and then come back to this forum and tell us were wrong, if you have kids bring them along, and watch them get hooked, ive started to bring my lil bro(annoying as he is) to the odd match, and already ive seen a marked change in his attitude to the game of football. where once his saturdays consisted of slobbing on the couch watching arsenal play and changing the channel when it looked like they were gonna loose, now he's talking a real interest in the art of actually supporting a club. last week he bought a ps3 and had invited his mates over to have a go, but when he found out i was going to the Waterford game, he phoned and cancelled. i was shocked, but all he could talk about was how a win would take us off the bottom, i didnt even think he knew what position we were in!

all im saying is to judge to game in ireland on one game a few years ago is daft, its not a restaurant, just give it a try

Good quote from barstooler recently...

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I really wish I had gotten over to see United this season...

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:rolleyes:

This MB really has hit the skids when an interesting, thought provoking poster is accused of trolling.

That said I completely disagree with him.
The point about a lack of family members/mates to share the passion with is a fair one and is a problem for the league but how many of irishboy99's friends and family support Sunderland ? Frequently fans of English clubs plough a lonley enough furrow among their circles if they're the only fan of their particular club.

Also the lack of media exposure was a problem but probably isn't as much anymore, it's now pretty easy to follow your teams fortunes if your missing matches, how often were Sunderland in the Irish papers or on TV (Irish or English) in the eighties ?

As for not your local team Stillorgan is a couple of miles from Milltown, Rovers have and always will have more support in DLR than UCD or indeed Bray. I'd guess most Sunderland season ticket holders are from further away from Roker/ The SoL than you grew up from Milltown, and they'd be known for being a strongly local club.

You mention the passion of Sunderland fans, it's true of all the clubs in the north east. I think you'd find also that a major part of their pride in their clubs comes from regionalism and they'd be very proud of the fact that fans of other clubs (in particular Manchester United) are thin on the ground up there. They'd look down on the fact that there are so many United fans in areas like the midlands/London and parts of Yorkshire and would look down on those fans.

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Originally Posted by irishboy99

So tell me who for example in Dublin in the huge number of suburbs who should they be supporting. I can think of vast areas of Dublin where there is no 'local' LOI team.

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I can think of vast swathes of London with no team. I live in one, for example ! My nearest senior club is either Chelsea/Fulham, a few miles away on the other side of the river (a big identity barrier in london) or the likes of charlton or Palace who are miles away geographically and again identity wise. But you may not grasp the fact that for most people who follow a team, havign an ability to idenitfy with them is key...

I can think of vast swathes of other cities in Europe which have football teams less local to them than in Dublin. So how the hell is that any sort of genuine reason/excuse ? It isn't - you're just grasping at straws to justify the fact you picked an English team at random, and now a chunk of your life revolves around that random childish decision. That is what is so ridiculous about people in Ireland who support an English team - it's nigh on a lottery of time, personnel or kit colour, and as a result that team can never actually mean that much to them, no matter how much they doth protest to the countrary...

So many dismissive, bitter, petty, holier than thou Eircom League fans on this thread and it makes me sick. If people have this kind of attitude why would irishboy even bother going to an Eircom League game?

I always get a feeling that if the Eircom League did ever get popular, the same people would complain about the barstoolers being “band-wagon” jumpers and pining for the days when it was “their league.”

It is like people who love these new bands, tell all their mates “buy the album, buy the album” and then get all bitter and resentful when the band becomes successful.

All this consume nonsense is just b*ll**** too - you don’t choose football clubs, they choose you, and when you fall in love with one - rational goes out the window.

Attending games is great but it is not the end all either - I’ve lived away from Dublin for a year and a half and a Shels defeat still hurts the same.

I’m also a Sheffield Wednesday fan, a club who size and success wise would be close to Sunderland, and I do care deeply out them too and I’ll never apologies for it.

Too many people are trying to over analysis things here, I bet irishboy hurts when Sunderland lose and is over the moon when they win - just like all you are whenever your team plays.

There are many, many things wrong with the Irish game, it is not an attractive product, to be honest, non-Shels games hold very little interest for me, especially now that we are not in the top league, why would I care less about a Bohs v Cork match?

Forget about your own club for a minute because your emotionally attached to them - but how interested would you be in watching Sligo v Bray; Waterford v Rovers; Longford v Derry? When you’re not emotionally invested - they don’t seem all that attractive do they?

So what do we do to change this? We just have to keep improving the standard, and the facilities, and make it as attractive as possible for people to come to games, then when they see that last minute winner, after not having had to stand in the cold for ninety minutes, with maybe a few beers and some good food in their bellies, they might say to themselves - “hey this is alight - I could go do this again”

People need to stop bitching and moaning as to why Irish people don’t attend Eircom League games and why Irish businessmen don’t invest. They need to start asking why they don’t instead. Because if we don’t identify the problems then we will never come up with a solution, and in 30 years time we will be having the same argument all over again.

I am not going to go into a big angry rant like I normally do with barstoolers as I have gone past the point of caring. I used to be the same as you irishbhoy when I was younger and knew no better. Children are easily swayed by tv and hype and it was the thing to do when you were young. But I was brought to a Bohs-Monaghan pre-season friendly by a mate and was hooked straight away as I felt I could be part of the club.

I look back now and wish I had been brought to a game before and can't believe I considered myself a big Liverpool and Celtic fan because I seen them the odd time on TV. I was not a Liverpool or Celtic fan but an interested observer, a follower. I never felt a connection with either team and one very important thing, I never felt a connection to any other Liverpool or Celtic "fan" I ever met. I never meant anything to either club, unlike at Bohs where my support matters very much so.

As for what a proper fan is, from the informaion you have given here, you are not what I consider a fan, you are a follower, a viewer, but not a fan. A fan is a support and gives his club his support, in many ways; going to games (very important), giving a helping hand a the club, something that the club/players can see and allow the club in some way progress/improve/benefit from. Sitting in a pub or at home with the tv on is not something that is likely to benefit "your" club. 1 fan in the stand would inspire a player more than thousands of "fans" infront of a tv. Being a fan is not just a one day or 90mins commitment a week but an ongoing thing, you are a fan not just when your team is playing. You live for your team, you go through pain and joy for days after a game. The list could go on but no one will ever be able to explain fully what it's like to be a real fan, you just have to experience it.

If Bohs went bust tomorrow, it would be something I would never get over, it would be one of the worst things that couls ever happen as it is such a big part of my life, as it is for all football fans. If Sunderland went bust tomorrow, it would be like your favourite TV programme being cancelled, nothing more. You would be dissapointed but move on. There is more TV programmes you could watch instead, it is just 90mins of your TV viewing every week, if even.

But to be honest, I feel sorry for you that you will never get to experience what it is like to be a football fan, so enjoy following Sunderland but expect to be laughed at if you visit Dalymount for your vip trip to see the filming of your favourite TV programme.;)

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Originally Posted by TheOwl

So many dismissive, bitter, petty, holier than thou Eircom League fans on this thread and it makes me sick. If people have this kind of attitude why would irishboy even bother going to an Eircom League game?

I always get a feeling that if the Eircom League did ever get popular, the same people would complain about the barstoolers being “band-wagon” jumpers and pining for the days when it was “their league.”

It is like people who love these new bands, tell all their mates “buy the album, buy the album” and then get all bitter and resentful when the band becomes successful.

All this consume nonsense is just b*ll**** too - you don’t choose football clubs, they choose you, and when you fall in love with one - rational goes out the window.

Attending games is great but it is not the end all either - I’ve lived away from Dublin for a year and a half and a Shels defeat still hurts the same.

I’m also a Sheffield Wednesday fan, a club who size and success wise would be close to Sunderland, and I do care deeply out them too and I’ll never apologies for it.

Too many people are trying to over analysis things here, I bet irishboy hurts when Sunderland lose and is over the moon when they win - just like all you are whenever your team plays.

There are many, many things wrong with the Irish game, it is not an attractive product, to be honest, non-Shels games hold very little interest for me, especially now that we are not in the top league, why would I care less about a Bohs v Cork match?

Forget about your own club for a minute because your emotionally attached to them - but how interested would you be in watching Sligo v Bray; Waterford v Rovers; Longford v Derry? When you’re not emotionally invested - they don’t seem all that attractive do they?

So what do we do to change this? We just have to keep improving the standard, and the facilities, and make it as attractive as possible for people to come to games, then when they see that last minute winner, after not having had to stand in the cold for ninety minutes, with maybe a few beers and some good food in their bellies, they might say to themselves - “hey this is alight - I could go do this again”

People need to stop bitching and moaning as to why Irish people don’t attend Eircom League games and why Irish businessmen don’t invest. They need to start asking why they don’t instead. Because if we don’t identify the problems then we will never come up with a solution, and in 30 years time we will be having the same argument all over again.

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And in return for such honesty, those who don't support the EL need to likewise be honest and stop grasping for pathetic excuses to explain why they follow English or Scottish teams.

Exhibit A being the whole 'But there was no club near me in Dublin' - as if they were ever poised to support the domestic game, only to be cruelly foiled by geography and then forced to support a team 300 times further away than their nearest Irish side instead.... :o

And they also need to stop dismissing a game they know nothing about, involving teams they never see, and trotting out a view of the standard of the domestic game that is at-best a decade out of date.

It cuts both ways Owl.....

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Originally Posted by irishboy99

You must never had BBC, ITV or a dad/uncle/brother/son who supported a team other than a LOI team.

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Of course i had BBC and ITV,i even had Sky Sports growing up and also my father was and still is a fan of English football but the concept of supporting a team from another country that i could never go see in the flesh week in,week out was so far fetched that i refused to let my friends or family dictate who i supported.

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Originally Posted by TheBoss

Slightly off topic here, What annoys me about Sunderland is hearing their results on the radio and not hearing the other Championship scores. Or when Setanta show a EPL game @ 3.00, Sunderland's score pops up in the corner and no other Championship score. I find it embarrassing, Everyone in Ireland is all of a sudden a Sunderland supporter, joke. Its like every Irish person is suppose to support Celtic, well, I do not.

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I think the interest in Sland is more about football than the Celtic interest. With all the ex-Irish boys involved going back a number of years it creates interest naturally. The Celtic thing annoys me. Its as though we arent allowed support English clubs but Celtic are okay even though they're clearly Scottish (with their English version of "Soldiers are we"). I lived in Glasgow and supported them at that time and still do, but I think the connection with Ireland is a bit precarious. The Sland connection is better I think.

It's interesting to see this rumbling on - on another thread now. To the poster that asked 'why are you on here', I say count the number of posts on the thread (including your own) - it obviously touches a raw spot.

It's funny that a similar argument is simmering away now on the Sunderland Message Board, where self-proclaimed 'uber' fans often have a go at the ' johnny-come-lately's ' who have only started going to the SSOL since we started to have some success under Roy and Niall. But what do they want? New fans to be banned? You have to show ticket stubs from the '73 final to be allowed admission? It's silly.

What about Man Utd? Coach loads of 'Utd' supporters head up from the South of England carrying southern 'fans' who have adopted Utd. as their team - often just because it is a 'big' club - this isn't just an English/Irish issue. Some fans are fans through birth, others through chance, some through fashion. But I don't see any point railing against it - it's an open market - that's the way the world is.