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Originally Posted by
Erstwhile Bóz
But Irish people, quite remarkably, continue to speak Irish. Therefore people who speak Irish are still part of Irish culture and not yet history. If culture is what we make of it why are you so upset when some people make a big thing of Irish?
The tiny minority that speak irish as more than a novelty are far over represented in terms of "rights" and expenditure. For example, nearly half a million euros has been wasted on one project alone, so that teachers wishing to each in gaeltacht areas don't have to suffer the indignity of learning the basics of their trade in English. Unfortunately, the resource was demanded, the money was spent, and now apparantly the demand was much louder than it was sizeable. It is this and similar projects of extravagant waste and basic violations of rights such as the aforementioned removal of english place names in an officially english speaking country and the ridiculous unjustifiable and equally minority-serving bonus points system at leaving cert, allied to the holier-than-though attitudes of that other minority, the novelty speakers, that perturbs me.
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Your fanatical need to separate history and culture is perplexing.
you've got me wrong - my point was that history, culture and language can be separated, but I wanted to impress the fact that language is much easier separated from history and culture than they are from each other.
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Of course you can; but it doesn't make it any less of a part of our historical culture. The smart remarks and little poems and explanatory commentary written by the scribes in the margins or between the lines are a great source of enjoyment and wonder and information if that floats your boat. If it doesn't, again, why get upset that some people enjoy it? Hiberno-Latin or Early Irish is not being forced down anybody's throat. (Quite the opposite in the latter case, in fact.) We don't even have the old £5 notes imposing their culture into our pockets any more; they're history.
nobody's upset that they enjoy it. However, I would be "upset" at those that use it to their advantage, and those that wish to deny the reality of our culture today in favour of an absurd ideal of continuation from those few hundred monks akin to Benito Mussolini wishing to restore the glory of fascist rome, an ignorant denial that times have changed and things have moved vastly onward.
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I cannot see the benefit of not learning something when you are young, particularly a language. Especially a language which only survives in the country you happen to live in. It would be odd not to teach it.
it is time wasted, for the majority of pupils. every person in ireland has suffered through over a dozen years of being force fed a mish-mash of Pól Péist and catechismal crap. there are so many more productive things they could be doing. I'm not seeking to outlaw irish, but simply to unburden those who dont wish to spend time reciting things that are about as useful to later life as learning the names of the pokemon.
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I don't see how you can say it is possible to be proud of something at the same time as refusing to teach part of it to your children.
again, not refusal. choice. unbiased choice, at that.
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Irish-language literature is "almost entirely based on irish history or culture"? Incorrect. You really should read more of it or perhaps ask questions of the people you hear coming out with this stuff as you appear not to have a grasp of the facts.
There are many works of literature in Irish that do not discuss Irish history or culture (I really don't know what you mean at this stage with either of those words, it could be anything). Please be advised that there has been a conscious shift away from the 'traditional' milieu in Irish-language poetry and prose since the '60s.
But does setting an Irish-language novel or short story in the past or in Ireland or -- God forbid -- the Gaeltacht really detract from whatever magnificent and universal themes might be treated therein? It would be nonsense to mock Ulysses, as Myles na Gopaleen did in jest, for being nothing more than a "tourist guide to Dublin". (Speaking of which, it occurs to me that for all the opportunities offered to them as writers of an international heavyweight tongue, the English-language writers of this island have been just as Hibernocentric as the Irish-language writers.)
As regards writers in other languages, there are plenty of Irish translations just as there are in English. Where's War and Peace set? The Red and the Black? 100 Years of Solitude? What histories and cultures are they "based" on? Did they only become worthy when translated into languages that have nothing to do with Russia, France, Mexico?
As regards your point about academic works, well, minority languages the world over are in the same boat and Irish is nothing special in having a limited audience. You seem to wish to disregard the enormous body of academic publications in Irish that might have anything to do with the slightest whiff of linguistics or history, so I will just note in passing that there are also many that discuss political and theological questions of general import. Current affairs and eclectic discussions on matters of human interest have platforms in print, on the television, on the radio, and on the internet. Do I listen to or read them if they don't interest me? I don't as I am not arsed. Do I if they do? I do.
You're probably right, I'm not entirely qualified to discuss the body of literature available as gaeilge, since my own tiscint of the language is restricted to cupla focla cosuil le sin. However, from a schooling point of view, which would be my own experience of the language, the fair is mediocre at best. The works I can remember are some old guy abusing a mentally challenged friend and a bird, some kerry man throwing rocks at pavees before heading to america and telling wonderful tales of negros and dance halls, and a by-numbers murder plot set in suburban dublin. we also translated the national anthem, much to the delight of the proto-provo messers in the class. i would imagine majority of people's experiences are like this - and we didnt even have to do peig sayers!
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Your aphorism at the end, "Gaeilge needs irish culture, irish culture does not need gaeilge" does not make sense. Especially as Irish-language culture, being something that a lot of Irish people "do", is an integral part of Irish culture, by your own definition, until it becomes part of Irish history. You can throw a reserved tea party if you live to see the day Irish culture no longer includes literature in Irish created by Irish-speaking people.
the figures themselves show actual irish speakers to be numbered in the thousands. i wouldnt call it "a lot" anyway. of the novelty speakers, i would include their little passtime as on par with medieval recreation societies - no more than a sometimes enjoyable hobby, certainly not integral to the culture we live in. The culture of our country are the events, beliefs and ideals in our everyday lives. Perhaps attempting to recreate an irish speaking state is a part of irish culture, that does not make the language itself a part, no more than the benchmarking process is. Almost invariably, these events, ideals and beliefs are convey through the medium of english, but as I said, the medium is for the most part irrelevant.
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I would like to know, though, where you think the Irish culture you enjoy would be without the English language.
im not quite sure what you mean. Do you mean do i think Irish culture would be different if we still spoke irish? possibly, given that would create an entirely different reality. Our tv shows would probably still be in english, and english would probably still be a very strong "second language" the way it is in other countries, as evidenced by the polish influx.
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My general advice, either way, is take it or leave it. But seeing as Ireland is essentially where it's at as regards the Irish language, I think it's unreasonable to expect to be able to avoid "Irish-language culture" completely.
I don't expect to be able to avoid it, given the amount of investment of time, money and energy driven into it by those who you would call patriotic or sentimental, and i would call foolhardy. However, a bit of reality on the scale of things would be nice.
