Republic V North

i would be amazed if england didnt qualify. they are in a bit of a transitional period themselves now with the likes of beckham gone but i mean look at their players ffs. i saw that croatia game and it was just a continuation of the way they played in the world cup-absolute muck-if i was english i'd be going insane at the way that team are playing right now.

But they will probably scrape enough wins to finish second. As for the north, they are playing out of their skins right now but will ultimately fail because their players are not good enough. I would compare them to the bosnian and icelandic teams of about 3 years ago where both finished within a few points of play off places for euro 2004. i expect them to get hammered in spain and latvia respectively but a 4th place finish for them would be admirable indeed.

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Originally Posted by youngirish

Lawro saying how poor we were and how poor our pool of players are on MOTD last Saturday. Apparently we don't have the players to compete with the likes of England.

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Whatever about us vs England I bet you anything that any of the paid TV pundits do not know anything about the options available to the Irsh. Lawro, Stapleton and all the others. I would bet you anything that Lawro had never even heard of Paul McShane for example, or Jon Douglas.

I know I tend to take a green-tinted view on all our players, as do many here, but the reality is that those of us who actually care think we have better resources than we're utilising at the moment.

Staunton has had 5 games so far. One good win, 3 abject defeats and one decent performance. In only 2 of these games did he put out a central midfield that was competitive: JOS & S. Reid vs Sweden, and even that was only good in parts, and Carsley & Douglas against the Czechs.

The "we haven't got the players" arguement is facile, as exhibited by the Scots' and Northern Iish recent results.

A well set out team can compete. I'm not saying we'll win all the time but we'll be competitive if Staunton adheres to the fundamentals of team selection.

agree entirely about quality of our players. we have so much more quality than the north so for a result/performance like cyprus to happen is crazy. The only thing that you can say is that we have had injuries. it just goes to show you what a manager can do. Sanchez is doing for the north what mccarthy did for us-getting the absolute best out of average ability players.

We as a nation demand the same-It remains to be seen whether stan can get anything further from the likes of mchane,doyle, elliott etc. I just don't believe he's a motivator and thats what we need.

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Originally Posted by as_i_say

agree entirely about quality of our players. we have so much more quality than the north so for a result/performance like cyprus to happen is crazy.

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We have way better players to choose from than the Scots also and look at what they are achieving. Kenny Miller is no better than Elliot or Morrision (by all accounts he was poorer in the Championship) IMO and he's one of their most important players.

Lawro definitely doesn't have a clue anyway. He's a joke. I remember he said at the start of the season that Reading would be relegated because they didn't have enough firepower up front. Good one. Did he even watch Doyle, Lita or Kitson once last season?

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Originally Posted by youngirish

We have way better players to choose from than the Scots also and look at what they are achieving. Kenny Miller is no better than Elliot or Morrision (by all accounts he was poorer in the Championship) IMO and he's one of their most important players.

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I'm as biased towards Celtic players as I am Irish player so I have to back Miller up. :) He scored 19 goals in the Championship compared to Elliott's 14. Last season he very rarely played up front and even won Wolves player of the year even though he had signed a contract with Celtic in January. I don't want a debate about Kenny Miller so I'll leave it at that. :)

Anyway, man for man we're better than Scotland in almost every position tbh and our squad of players is terribly underrated.

Our squad is underrated because of so many ill-informed opinions getting air time the likes of Lawrenson, et al talking tripe. I never turn on Football Focus anymore cause there's no sense spoken on it no more.

Even the RTE team they're opinions sway ridiculously. At the end of the day we have a first team that should comprise 1st team players at Premiership clubs. And a backup of 7 players who are proven at international level.

The team we send out has not changed dramatically since the turn of the century. If anything some of the positions are improved. Kevin Doyle will be an improvement on Quinn and Morrison, McGeady has the potential to be our best option since Ray Houghton, while Richard Dunne should be our best centre half since Paul McGrath (mcShane could go even further).

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Originally Posted by eirebhoy

I'm as biased towards Celtic players as I am Irish player so I have to back Miller up. :) He scored 19 goals in the Championship compared to Elliott's 14. Last season he very rarely played up front and even won Wolves player of the year even though he had signed a contract with Celtic in January. I don't want a debate about Kenny Miller so I'll leave it at that. :)

Anyway, man for man we're better than Scotland in almost every position tbh and our squad of players is terribly underrated.

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In fairness, how good can Miller really be. He couldn't really cut it at Rangers, or in England. Now he's back in Scotland. I think it shows the standard of the SPL has dropped considerably in the last number of years. I don't think he would have gotten near either of the old firm starting line ups a number of years ago. He's not a patch on Larsson/De Boer standard players.

I personally think Celtic and Rangers have the strongest squads I've seen in a long time (attacking wise anyway) while Hearts are after strengthening considerably. There's also quite a few Hibs players I wouldn't mind seeing at Celtic, namely their 2 central midfielders Brown and Thomson.

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Originally Posted by Kingdom

Our squad is underrated because of so many ill-informed opinions getting air time the likes of Lawrenson, et al talking tripe. I never turn on Football Focus anymore cause there's no sense spoken on it no more.

Even the RTE team they're opinions sway ridiculously. At the end of the day we have a first team that should comprise 1st team players at Premiership clubs. And a backup of 7 players who are proven at international level.

The team we send out has not changed dramatically since the turn of the century. If anything some of the positions are improved. Kevin Doyle will be an improvement on Quinn and Morrison, McGeady has the potential to be our best option since Ray Houghton, while Richard Dunne should be our best centre half since Paul McGrath (mcShane could go even further).

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I'm not really sure how ye can say we are under-rated. The last time we beat a decent team at home is 5 years ago!! We havent qualified for the last two tournaments and we dont look like we will the next either. We have an average squad but not much more than that. I think its a case of the English team are over-rated more so than us underrated.
Im not the biggest fan of Lawro either, Cascarino knows more about Irish soccer than he does. I love the way he frequently refers to england as we on bbc and when on tv3 ireland as we.

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Originally Posted by elroy

I'm not really sure how ye can say we are under-rated. The last time we beat a decent team at home is 5 years ago!!

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He said the squad is underrated. It definitely is imo. After the recent performance in Cyprus we had comments like "I'd be good enough to make the current Ireland squad". The players aren't the problem. We have an excellent set of individuals, especially compared the McCarthy's squad.

Ok i agree with that. I actually went back at looked at the squad we had for the portugal/holland games in 2001 and on a man for man basis we arguably have a better squad now. Admittedly missing the likes of keane but overall we are superior now.

Man for man we have possibly/probably the strongest squad since the 94 qualifiers.

Bonner (Y - Given)
Irwin (N-Carr)
Phelan (Y-Finnan)
McGrath (N- O'Brien)
Kernaghan (Y-Dunne)
Houghton (even- McGeady)
Keane (N- O'Shea)
Townsend (N-Carsley)
Staunton (Y- Duff)
Quinn (Y-Doyle)
Aldridge (Y-Keane)

Obviously I've used artistic licence with the right and left back, but I really do not believe we have that bad a team. It is down to player application, and coaching obviously.
If the players aren't committed enough they should be dropped and the reasons why should be made publicly.

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Originally Posted by youngirish

I'm actually quite well informed but not biased like yourself. So who else would get into our team? Taylor instead of Given? No chance. Lafferty or Healy instead of Keane or Doyle (proven premiership talent). Not a hope. Gillespie instead of McGeady or Duff? Are you for real? Arron Hughes instead of Finnan? Don't make me laugh.

Be realistic man. Two wins and a draw and you conveniently forget the quality of your players and all your results in all recent qualification campaigns. The only thing you have going for you against us is a half decent manager (compared to our muppet) and a good young central midfielder (of which we should have a couple coming through in the near future anyway). In all other 10 positions on the pitch we should play you off the park.

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So you're "informed", but I'm "biased"? Fair enough, it's good to know where I stand.
Anyhow, the phrase used was that only NI's Steve Davis is good enough to "get near" a combined side.
Frankly, Davis is already an excellent young international midfielder, entirely at ease against other top midfields like England, Portugal, Spain and Denmark. On his form over the last two years, he would have to be the first name in midfield for any combined side.
Alongside him, Damien Johnson is an excellent foil, except when he "boils over" and kicks his opponents a little too eagerly! However, from what I've seen, that would be no bad quality in the present ROI midfield. (Besides, with his energy, Damien could do Andy Reid's running down to Dunkin Donuts for him).
In addition, Aaron Hughes would have to be in at Centre Back, where he has gained almost all of his 52 caps. (That would leave RB to Finnan, where he is the better player). Hughes is also our Captain, so has arguably a better temperament than those such as Richard Dunne.
Up front, Healy would have to play ahead of Robbie Keane - and I say that as a Spurs fan, who voted for Keano as out POTY last season. Healy's goalscoring record of 24 in 54 internationals is not just much better than Keane's, but is actually just superior to Thierry Henry's!
Of course, Doyle is ahead of Lafferty in his development. However, he is also too similar a player to Healy to play alongside him and bring out the best in them both (imo). Healy needs a big guy alongside, which is why he doesn't shine for Leeds, where Blackwell often "marooned" him out on the wing. I don't really see any outstanding target man in the ROI squad, so Lafferty would have to be up for consideration.
Aside from those, Baird, Clingan, Duff and Taylor have all been excellent over the last year; although the ROI has players who are better on paper, the game is played on grass, so these players would have to be in contention.
And finally, posters here have remarked on how well McShane did on his debut vs the Czechs. Fair enough, but if you'd seen Jonny Evans (CB) in his three appearances so far vs Spain, Denmark and Latvia, where he played out of position at LB, you would appreciate just what a prospect he is. Unless something goes wrong (always possible, tbf), I can see no limits as to how far he can go. And if you think that's biased (which it almost certainly is ;) ), you just want to hear how highly Sir Alex Ferguson rates him!

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Originally Posted by Kingdom

Man for man we have possibly/probably the strongest squad since the 94 qualifiers.

Bonner (Y - Given)
Irwin (N-Carr)
Phelan (Y-Finnan)
McGrath (N- O'Brien)
Kernaghan (Y-Dunne)
Houghton (even- McGeady)
Keane (N- O'Shea)
Townsend (N-Carsley)
Staunton (Y- Duff)
Quinn (Y-Doyle)
Aldridge (Y-Keane)

Obviously I've used artistic licence with the right and left back, but I really do not believe we have that bad a team. It is down to player application, and coaching obviously.
If the players aren't committed enough they should be dropped and the reasons why should be made publicly.

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Misleading comparison, imo, since it overlooks two crucial aspects. McGrath and Roy Keane were so much better than anything in the present side, in terms both of class and leadership, that they were more than merely two positions out of eleven. In fact, they were absolute world class, not something you could say about any of the present team, bar Given, perhaps.
Also, Houghton, Quinn and Aldridge theoretically might not be better than McGeady, Doyle and Robbie K, but what have these last three actually achieved in the game? The fact is, the first three were "battle-hardened" over a period, so that they often outplayed opponents who were "better" technically than them.
McGeady, Doyle and Robbie K might have it within them to achieve similar heights at international level, but we've yet to see it, and we won't (imo), so long as Staunton is in charge.

EalingGreen you're living in fantasy land. Damien Johnson better than S Reid or Lee Carsley? Healy better than Keane (Spurs player of the year last year btw, how is Healy doing at Leeds at the moment)? Lafferty up for consideration? He doesn't get a game at Burnley ffs. We have about 10 better alternatives as target men (Murphy, Lee, Trundle - most can't even get into the squad). Jonny Evans being compared to Mc Shane? How many times has Jonny Evans played senior football? He only gets a chance at NI because you haven't got decent alternatives. If he was playing for the Republic he wouldn't get near the squad without having played regular first team football at least at Championship level.

I was right about the biased remark. Stop getting carried away after 3 results (2 at home remember), you're only setting yourself up for a fall. Only Davis would add anything to our first 11. We could take Hughes at CB but the alternatives are just as good. To start suggesting players playing for relegation threatened clubs in the Championship are better than proven premiership goalscorers is insane.

Also Robbie Keane scored 3 goals in the World Cup finals so I reckon he has achieved more at international level than Aldridge. And he's our top international goalscorer by a distance.

Yes but we are discussing international football, which is completely different than the domestic game. Look at players who have a brilliant worldcup/euros then do nothing when they go back to their clubs.

Obviously its a matter of opinion but i think Healy is a better international player than Keane. As are Hughes and Gillespie, who have a wealth of expereince at this level.

Anyway i'll have to stop typing, I'm getting dizzy looking down on you from our lofty 45th in the world position.:D

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Originally Posted by Andyh

Anyway i'll have to stop typing, I'm getting dizzy looking down on you from our lofty 45th in the world position.:D

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Enjoy it while it briefly lasts just don't get used to it.

Healy is nowhere near as good as Keane or Doyle. Only someone who is an NI fan could state otherwise or alternatively someone with the memory of a goldfish. I know your the former but no doubt we'll have some of the latter posting that can't see beyond the last 2 or 3 games.

He's not even as good as Stephen Elliot.

I think a lot of people are missing what I think is the real point. When was the last time we actually put out two physically competitive natural midfielders in midfield? Since Mick, have we ever really put out a properly balanced side? We've had the players but have we had them in positions they function best in? Did John O'Shea add the balance to the left-side that Harte did under Mick?

I said ad infinitum during the Kerr era inquests that his biggest tactical failing was the persistent inclusion of Kilbane as a central midfielder. He simply doesn't have the nous for the position & the ability to feed our forwards and wide players. Yet in Staunton's first two competitive games in charge we went back to the soft Kilbane option. We then move him out left and he plays well and the team functions well.

I think with a properly functional & competitve midfield, like we had last Wednesday, the rest of the team can function well too.

The Scots & Northern Irish put out well balanced teams and can compete with good teams on the day.

All I want is to be competitive again. Win lose or draw as long as we can say we gave it our best shot. In several important games in the last few years I don't think we can say we did.

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Originally Posted by youngirish

Enjoy it while it briefly lasts just don't get used to it.

Healy is nowhere near as good as Keane or Doyle. Only someone who is an NI fan could state otherwise or alternatively someone with the memory of a goldfish. I know your the former but no doubt we'll have some of the latter posting that can't see beyond the last 2 or 3 games.

He's not even as good as Stephen Elliot.

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The facts speak for themselves that at international level(which is all I care about) Healy is better than anyone the ROI have as an attacking option. And the whole point of united team is irrelavant as thank God its not even in the pipeline. I wish the Republic well and know that you will come out of the slump your in. as many international squads have shown, its not just about putting out the best 11 players you have, but getting 11 players to play as a team and with effort.

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Originally Posted by youngirish

EalingGreen you're living in fantasy land. Damien Johnson better than S Reid or Lee Carsley? Healy better than Keane (Spurs player of the year last year btw, how is Healy doing at Leeds at the moment)? Jonny Evans being compared to Mc Shane? How many times has Jonny Evans played senior football? He only gets a chance at NI because you haven't got decent alternatives. If he was playing for the Republic he wouldn't get near the squad without having played regular first team football at leats at Championship level.

I was right about the biased remark. Stop getting carried away after 3 results (2 at home remember), you're only setting yourself up for a fall. Only Davis would add anything to our first 11. We could take Hughes at CB but the alternatives are just as good. To start suggesting players playing for relegation threatened clubs in the Championship are better than proven premiership goalscorers is insane.

Also Robbie Keane scored 3 goals in the World Cup finals so I reckon he has achieved more at international level than Aldridge.

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I didn't say the players I cited were all "better" than their ROI counterparts; rather I said they should be "in contention" for any combined squad (as opposed to the original outlandish claim that none bar Davis would get "anywhere near").
In this respect, I go by what they actually been achieving on the pitch, in international matches. Of course the likes of Damian Duff is a better player all round than e.g. Keith Gillespie. However, Keef has been doing it where it counts for us, which is why he deserves a place in any squad.
As for Johnson's place, his attitude has been outstanding, whether picked, suspended or on the bench. Fair enough, Lee Carsley is a superior talent, but demanding a guaranteed place in the starting line-up is no way to engender good morale amongst your teammates. Perhaps you don't rate morale as being important, either?
Similarly, Keane is a superior club player to Healy. But in the end, each country is picking their respective player to be the main scorer in the team and Healy has done that job in internationals better than Keane, right from his debut. Not only that, but he has done it in a team which was for a long time crap, for a manager in McIlroy who was hardly much more clued-up than Staunton. Above all, he has scored against top defences, such as Germany, England, Spain, Denmark (inc.Schmeichel) and the rest. Then again, perhaps you don't think scoring 24 goals in 54 games counts for anything?
As for McShane vs Evans, am I right in saying that McShane was actually at MU, but they decided to release him? (Could be wrong). Whereas, having played for MU in pre-season (inc.scoring against Celtic), Evans was loaned to Antwerp, which is what Ferguson does for the top youngsters that he wants to fasttrack. This was why Ferguson predicted 4 months ago that Evans should be playing for NI before the season is out.
OK, it happened even sooner than that, but he wasn't found wanting, even out of position. In fact, he was so good on his debut against Spain, that the player he was marking (Torres of Athletico Madrid) was substituted. The same happened v Denmark (Lovenkrands).
And I'm not basing this on a mere three results; in the last year NI have also drawn with Portugal and beaten Finland away - both highly respectable.

Still, what do mere facts count for in a debate between the "biased" and the "informed"?;)