How can the eL survive...

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Originally Posted by NY Hoop

We need an hour long show at prime time monday that will cover ALL the premier games and will have interviews, competitions, fans view etc etc. Like the Gazzetta show.

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But the bottom line is facilities. As someone says they are not gonna pay €15 into a ****hole.

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I agree with the prime time show - the media creates hype and interest in pretty much everything that grips the public. If EL footy was on the TV and in the papers prominently everyday, then people would be small talking about it, and interest would rise along with attendance figures.

I don't buy in to the facilities bit really. Free face painting for kids and a family atmosphere is something I have championed here before. But in the majority of matches I go to, I don't leave my seat (or terrace position) at any stage of the match or even at half time. I turn up for the game, watch it, and go home. Whether I can get a pint, a hotdog, or anything else is unimportant for me...but maybe I'm in a minority on that one.

FWIW I was at the Shels v Derry game, wearing a t-shirt on a lovely night for football. It was still a little bright as I got on the bus home after the game.

Playing in the summer works, we just need to power of the media to spread the word.

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Originally Posted by passerrby

all these things will help and improve the EL but without a real aggressive marketing policy (not a small ad in the star) it will not work ,you only have to look at heniken and guinness to see how proactive they are in the leagues.

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100% agree with that, eircom are a poor sponsor. They are also the worst company in Ireland for customer service in my opinion (I know it's not relevant but I needed to say it following numerous frustrations at their hands).

A sponsor with some get up and go about them, putting the league in to prime time ads and on bus shelters, train stations, billboards etc would make a big difference.

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Originally Posted by Bald Student

That's something I hear a lot too. I think 15 euro is a bit steep for a match and puts new people off.

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It's not. Going to lower Division games in England is more expensive for one.
You get enough people paying far more than that to go cross-channel to watch games so I don't believe that to be a valid inhibiting factor. Our National inferiority complex about things is seemingly only manifesting itself in the attitude to domestic football these days. I think the main reason is supporting a team every other week or even every week ( home and away) is too much effort a commitment for most people. I am not sure if it is the partners/wives of men who are responsible for this attitude in the case of men not going or not. I don't know the reason. But the cost is not that high.
Perhaps the fact that half the people who work in Dublin these days live within an area that encompasses Gorey Athlone and Dundalk might be a reason. But if that were the only reason, Athlone Town and Dundalk's gates should be up and they are not!


It's not even the cost of 5 pints in a typical Dublin bar, and in the case of us Irish binge drinkers, a football match lasts longer, so is better value for money!

Irish people cram into Lansdowne road & that a complete dump. Its not always about facilities.

I've had a quick glance through this thread.
Would i be correct in saying that the attendance for GUFC v Rovers (1122) is on a par or bigger than that of Shels v Derry!!:eek:

Everyone is quick enough to knock UCD and Dublin City for their shocking attendances but it's even more worrying when a top of the table clash in the premier Divison is lower(or slightly higher) than the equivalent fixture in the 1st Divison.
The mind boggles!!??!:confused:

No excuses for Tuesday evening etc.I'm sure Derry had at least 200 there so it's really the Shels fans you'd have to look at,still not good enough.:(

With the merger of the FAIlure & EL, would it be possible for the FAI to somehow corellate access to international tickets with attendance at EL matches.It would work, in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Soper

With the merger of the FAIlure & EL, would it be possible for the FAI to somehow corellate access to international tickets with attendance at EL matches.It would work, in my opinion.

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Supporter clubs already get tickets from the FAI- I think all of them are for the North Terrace. I doubt the FAI would do anything like you suggested as they were unwilling to give EL clubs a decent allocation of tickets.

What do you think of this idea to boost attendances?

'The League Supporter's Season Ticket'
Instead of buying a season ticket for your club, you buy a one-off ticket for access to all league matches during the season. This would encourage people in Dublin (particularly) to attend more games as neutral fans - eg a Bohs fan could go to Tolka Park to watch Shels v whoever and get in using his 'League Season Ticket'. You could use your ticket to take in 3 or 4 games some weekends.

It might also encourage more away fans to travel as they would (in a way) be getting in to the game free.

The tickets could be bought through the league, with each supporter declaring who their 'home' club is, so the club can recieve the bulk of the ticket cost. Admittedly this would mean an increase in current season ticket costs, but it would mean no paying for tickets for away games.

Preferential treatment for international tickets for people who bought 'league season tickets' would also be an incentive.

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Originally Posted by Rogue Trader

Sorry but to say there are less distractions in Winter than Summer is absolute nonsense ! As far the sport you list GAA championships is major issue because a lot of the local stuff is played on a saturday evening. Also Easter is a great weekend for Footy espicially good friday ( Which is in the summer soccer season and so is Halloween) European Clb Football is played midweek so does not effect the Winter footy. I would love a return to the the winter football as it is a period that a football season should take place in this country.

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Sorry Rogue trader - but literally nothing you've written above makes sense. Even if it is 5:46am and I'm drunk.....

You say it's nonesense to claim there are less distractions in Winter than Summer - but then you go on to give weird examples that are either none-season specific, or have nothing to do with Summer. So nothing you've said in anyway supports your assertion (and I'm the drunk one....?).

You say GAA Championships are a major issue, because "a lot of the stuff is played on a Saturday evening". Firstly - there are Saturday evenings in every season. Secondly, there are very few EL games on a Saturday evening, regardless of the season - so soccer is hardly a direct competitor in that respect. Thirdly - everyone knows that the crowds at GAA exponentially grow the further a team gets - so even if a soccer game clashed with a medicore early round tie in the GAA championship, the crowd would only waiver by a tiny percent. Though as we've already established, that would be a rare event in-itself anyway.

Then you go on to point out that Easter "is a great weekend for footy, especially good friday" and then tell us that Halloween is also in the Summer soccer season. Not only do you fail to point out what the relevance of this observation is, but you fail to realise the obvious issue that both those periods are also in the Winter football period. So any criticism you have of them re Summer football would be equally applicable to the winter alternative.

You then say that European club football is played midweek, so does not affect the Winter football - a ridiculous assertion, given that Summer football also involves mid-weeks as welll. The gregorian calendar holds firms, regardless of the footballing season. Never-the-less - this has feck all to do with the merits of Winter football over Summer.

You then conclude by making a value judgement re your love of Winter football, and an assertion that that is when football should be played in this country. Apparently....

In summary - it's almost 6am and I'm quite drunk, yet you're still not making any sense. That's worrying.

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Originally Posted by el punter

What do you think of this idea to boost attendances?

'The League Supporter's Season Ticket'
Instead of buying a season ticket for your club, you buy a one-off ticket for access to all league matches during the season.

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Rubbish idea, sorry. People won't spend extra money just to have the convenience of not having to pay at the gate at away games.

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Originally Posted by el punter

What do you think of this idea to boost attendances?

'The League Supporter's Season Ticket'
Instead of buying a season ticket for your club, you buy a one-off ticket for access to all league matches during the season. This would encourage people in Dublin (particularly) to attend more games as neutral fans - eg a Bohs fan could go to Tolka Park to watch Shels v whoever and get in using his 'League Season Ticket'. You could use your ticket to take in 3 or 4 games some weekends.

It might also encourage more away fans to travel as they would (in a way) be getting in to the game free.

The tickets could be bought through the league, with each supporter declaring who their 'home' club is, so the club can recieve the bulk of the ticket cost. Admittedly this would mean an increase in current season ticket costs, but it would mean no paying for tickets for away games.

Preferential treatment for international tickets for people who bought 'league season tickets' would also be an incentive.

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Personally I think this is an excellent idea, and no need to declare a club. By using a barcoding system the revenue could be split between clubs based on the actual games attended. The ticket could also allow a spouse / chile in at reduced rates etc and be tied into international tickets by way of a small allocation.

If for example 2200 were offered for sale at a cost of €300 with 1 international ticket per home game for the season, paid in addition it would be worth approx €30,000 per club.

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Originally Posted by Rogue Trader

Why do you think this top of the table clash only attracted this poor crowd ? Instead of having a sensible chat about this you have done your best to turn it into a slagging match which is sad to be fair.

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Because it was a tuesday night and shels always have cr*p crowds. If it hadn't been re-arranged I'm sure Derry would have brought more. Honestly do you think winter football would bring better crowds for shels on a tuesday night?? I guarantee you the crowds would have been smaller and the standard of football worse. At least this way the people who did turn up got to see a good game

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Originally Posted by Rogue Trader

Look i will make my point Simple for you because i know the schooling system that you guys have in Britain is not the best,

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Grow up

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Originally Posted by Rogue Trader

i do not agree with Summer Football because of the distractions that keep people from attending the matches and this is backed up my the reduced attendances we are seeing at games across the league this season. I deal only in facts my friend ;)

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There are distractions at all times of the year. Can you show me facts that league attendances overall are down since the change to winter football...since you only deal in facts?

Unless there has been a noticeable drop overall....which there hasn't the improvement in quality of football and results in Europe are surely worth the change?

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Originally Posted by Rogue Trader

The Summer weather is having negative effect on league crowds and i believe that the pitches are also taking a knock because the time for growth is in the Summer months and are not getting a chance to be repaired..

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This has been debated to death already and majority of fans choose summer football. There are pros & cons for both seasons but i can't how anyone can conclusively say crowds are up or down this summer already.

Longford have lower crowds as playing sh!te football & not winning cups anymore. Finn Harps probably getting low crowds as they are in the 1st division.

Hard pitches can be solved by watering whereas no solution to muddy pitches.

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Originally Posted by pete

This has been debated to death already and majority of fans choose summer football

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Where was this?

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Originally Posted by Rogue Trader

I mean Summer football is fine for most of the lads that are on this site because we are all probably decent fans who would go and follow our team no matter what the weather is and i prefer to go and watch Rovers in nice weather but our clubs rely on more than us. The Summer weather is having negative effect on league crowds

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Only goes back to 1999-2000 season but

From http://www.european-football-statist...000/aveire.htm

Average Attendence:
.................Premier................... First division
1999-2000....1,816.......................not given
2000-2001....1,709.......................not given
2003............2,328.......................not given
2004 ...........1,864 ........................515
2005............1,759 ........................523

Obviously these are not concluisve and can't compare first division to winter football but surely there's not a big enough difference in the average premier attendences to want o go back to playing/supporting in the rain, freezing cold and muddy pitches with worse results in Europe overall??

Form these figures why do you think winter football would draw bigger crowds?

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Originally Posted by Rogue Trader

Look at the trend for the last 3 years if you want down down and this years is going to be lower again and i have a very good idea why there was an increase in 2003 !

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It has gone down slightly in the last two years but is still around the same mark that it was during winter football.It was decreasing during winter football too before we changed to summer! Why do you think attendences would be higher if there was winter football when they weren't before??

Whatever the pros and cons of the 'new league' hopefully if anything improves it will be the marketing and exposure the EL gets. Because of summer football we now have teams who can compete(to a certain extent) in Europe. The first team that qualify for the group stages will bring a huge amoun of exposure and interest to the EL IMO.

The promise/chance of that happening gives hope that it will increase attendances. I don't see any evidence to suggest attendances would be better overall in winter. At least this way we give ourselves a chance to compete and draw people in Europe and overall we get to see a better standard of football throughout the year.

I know were probably not going to agree on this and that's fair enough but just wanted to give you my opinion on it :)

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Originally Posted by Rogue Trader

This is a joke surely where do i start you say i am saying one one thing and a few lines later say that i have said the opposite :D First of all the weird examples are mostly yours from your first reply i merley picked you up on them and ran with some basically all i was saying is that Bank Holiday games in the Winter have better attendances than Bank Holidays in the Summer.

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Firstly - where is the proof to support this assertion ? Secondly - there are only 2 bank holidays in the year that are not covered by both Winter and Summer football seasons : namely Christmas and New Year (possibly also Paddy's Day, depending on when the league starts). Even if there was proof that Bank holidays were the magic bullet for crowds, they'd only impact at most one or two games a season. I really don't see where you're going with this RT.

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Originally Posted by rOGUE TRADER

Always one of biggest gates of the Year was the Game at home during the Christmas also good Friday which you have in both seasons is a great gate imo, but thats not the point we are not hear to talk about a few days that we play football on.

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So why bring it up....?

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Originally Posted by Rogue Trader

You are saying that European Football clashes with the Eircom League, you have have not made one point yourself that makes any sense you have to been on the Shorts.

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Shorts is a factory in East Belfast. I've never been near the place. I didn't say that European football clashes with the Eircom League. Read what I wrote again - I merely ponted out that the gergorian calendar is the same regardless of the footballing season. As for the rest of your scentence, you're accusing me of not making sense via a scentence that doesn't make any sense....

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Originally Posted by Rogue Trader

There are very few Eircom league games on a Saturday evening like Hello what club do i support, what about Harps , Longford, Cobh, Kilkenny. Now we are moving our games to a Friday evening to try it out...

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Even from your own list above, only 18% of teams play home games on a Saturday. Statistically at least, that counts as "very few".

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Originally Posted by Rogue Trader

but Crowds are down across the league...

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Are they ? And if they are, can this be pinned on Summer football ?

There are a numedbr of things that can be said about Summer football : that it appears to be improving European performances, for example, and that it's a more pleasant experience (in terms of weather and day-light) for those who do go. But there is absolutely no clear evidence re the impact of Summer football on attendances. Some clubs are uip, some clubs are down. One or two even shake it all around. The attendance statictics available are often not mutually comparable, robust, comprehensive enough or sufficiently back-dated to provide a clear view of the situation - let alone to enable an accurate conclusion to be drawn. And even if the data was there, it would be too early to draw a firm conclusion anyway.

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Originally Posted by Rogue Trader

1,100 or so at Shels and Derry a top of the league match and thats the crowd thats a joke, Why do you think this top of the table clash only attracted this poor crowd ?

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Because it was a mid-week re-scheuled game hosted by a team with notoriously poor crowds given their relative success. Or are you suggesting that had it been a cold, wet Tuesday evening in December the full-house signs would've been up...?

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Originally Posted by Rogue Trader

Instead of having a sensible chat about this you have done your best to turn it into a slagging match which is sad to be fair.

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I am having a sensible debate, and I'm tackling the points you've raised. I apologise if my previous post was arsey - but I did point out that it was very late and I was pished.... :D Nevertheless - you then chose to progress onto a slanging match yourself - without the benefit of alcohol. Touche....

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Originally Posted by Rogue Trader

Look i will make my point Simple for you because i know the schooling system that you guys have in Britain is not the best...

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Northern Ireland is not, and never has been, part of Britain. There's a beautiful irony in the fact that the angle on which you attempt to tackle my supposed lack of education merely serves to highlight the shortcomings of your own scholastic background.....

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Originally Posted by Rogue Trader

i do not agree with Summer Football because of the distractions that keep people from attending the matches and this is backed up my the reduced attendances we are seeing at games across the league this season. I deal only in facts my friend ;)

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No you don't. There are not enough facts to even inform a decision on the impact of Summer football on attendances, let alone draw such a clear conclusion. Rather - you're strongly asserting a personal opinion based on the idea that people are at a loose end for 9 months of the year, and tryiong to label it as fact. That is the core of the issue here for me.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Shorts is a factory in East Belfast. I've never been near the place.

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For a man who said this in another thread;

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Well done you on spotting what was obviously a typo. No really - well done. 'Let he who is without typo, cast the first stone....' . If only we could all be as type-perfect as you.

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you're being a bit harsh on the fella for using a capital 'S' instead of a small one.

A home game for Shels gets a poor attendance?? No surprise there.

Another part of the crowd problem as I have said circa 200 times before, is kick off times. Cork for example, used to play on Sunday, and visiting fans could travel in no traffic to TC, with the possible exception of Derry's. Now, they're on Friday nights, how do you expect Dublin clubs' fans to go down there? They can only do it if they work and can change shifts. Kids can't travel down because of school, and most workplaces don't offer flexible hours. So you finish work on Friday at 5, with no possibility of making the game. The reverse also applies for Cork fans. Kick off times are all over the shop, with 11 league games taking place over 4 days. Foreigners are shocked when I tell them how disorganised it is. It's obvious therefore, that all NL matches should be on Saturdays at 8-8.30pm, the best time of the week to play for players and spectators. Who plays at that time? Not one single club in the country.

Facilities are woeful in most grounds, it's 4 years since I went to a toilet at an NL ground. There's little point in having decent stands if the rest of the ground looks crap. The Jodi Stand looks great in Dalymount, then you have the deserted Supermarket terrace behind the goal, which is terrible to look at. Ground conditions in the rest of the country are in many cases, much worse than that. If you're a neutral, would you pay €15 every week for the privilege?

Transport links at grounds, are from the flintstone age. There are usually no buses and trains available to return from games, bar local derbies.

• Cobh; Drogheda; 30 minute walk from local train station, up a steep hill
• Galway; off the track, 30 minute walk from train station
• Athlone; 15 minute walk from train station, via cul-de-sac
• Waterford; circa 25 minute walk from train station
• Dundalk; train station nearby, but no trains available after games.
• Cork City; Kilkenny City; Limerick; off the track, taxi required from station
• Derry City; Monaghan United; no train access
• Finn Harps; no transport

Exceptions are Bray Wanderers, and Kildare County, where public transport is available nearby after games. Clubs may be unable to do much about public infrastructure, but this is another factor that contributes to poor attendances, whether games take place in January or July.

Marketing is non-existent. TV3 show a few games every week, when half the audience is either going to/in bed. They're definitely in bed when it's shown at 5.50am on Tuesday morning! No game has a commentary, but is narrated instead. It's produced to fulfil the contract obligations, not by those with a marketing agenda. When Setanta win the exclusive rights, then we'll get decent coverage, with decent marketing, lots of live games, and a properly produced, glossy programme with commentaries, most likely shown on prime-time on Sundays. But until the end of this season, we have to endure TV3's fifth-rate NL coverage.

It's also clearly obvious that attendances have dropped in the PD now, as a result of UCD and Home Farm in it, and Shamrock Rovers out of it.

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Originally Posted by Student Mullet

For a man who said this in another thread;



you're being a bit harsh on the fella for using a capital 'S' instead of a small one.

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Very good SM. :) I've learned so much from you. Sorry I've made you wait so long for this.

Have you anything to add to the debate btw ?