National Anthem

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26/04/2006, 10:07 AM
MariborKev

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Who do people think they are telling us what we can and cannot sing.

If we had the proper legislation then it would be authorities lashing down a few fines in your direction......

David: Linfield fans don't sing those songs against every team. I have been to see the Blues at Windsor and in other grounds; Stute, Coleraine, Omagh and others and the songs did not appear at every game.
26/04/2006, 10:13 AM
David

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poor Student

This is why sectarianism will not be eliminated from Windsor. You're an apologist David. Your statement "I'd rather sing Linfield songs" is an admission that you really know that they don't belong there and you'd rather they weren't. It's like someone who has a family member or friend who does something wrong and you know it but you won't come out and admit it. But the sectarianism won't be eliminated until people like yourselves stand up and demand and force a footballing repertoire. That's easier said that done, I know. Rome wasn't built in a day and it's taking a lot and long time to root sectarianism out of Scottish football grounds. That doesn't mean they can rest on their laurels and pat each other on the back because they're doing it. There's a lot more to do.

Define sectarianism though. I, along with others, am working damned hard to eradicate sectarianism. GSTQ and RB (or the Sash for that matter) are NOT sectarian, they are about our identity. Now I personally do not want to express my identity at a football match but I totally accept the right of others to express theirs. Why can't others do the same? It is a democracy.
26/04/2006, 10:15 AM
David

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maribor

If we had the proper legislation then it would be authorities lashing down a few fines in your direction......

For singing our National Anthem or Rule Britannia? Somehow I doubt it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maribor

David: Linfield fans don't sing those songs against every team. I have been to see the Blues at Windsor and in other grounds; Stute, Coleraine, Omagh and others and the songs did not appear at every game.

These songs are sung at every game that there is fans singing at, which is admittedly not all games. They will be sung at the Cup Final, you can bet your house on that, which sort of screws your wee theory that is to rub peoples noses in it.
26/04/2006, 10:29 AM
MariborKev

David,

I was referring to your self righteous claim that people have no right to say what should be sung.

If we had the proper legislation in the North then offenders could be properly dealt with.

As regards the game that the songs are sung at I am not going to get into a debate over it. I was at the games, I heard what I heard.
26/04/2006, 10:47 AM
David

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maribor

David,

I was referring to your self righteous claim that people have no right to say what should be sung.

If we had the proper legislation in the North then offenders could be properly dealt with.

As regards the game that the songs are sung at I am not going to get into a debate over it. I was at the games, I heard what I heard.

If the song is sectarian I will agree with you 100% but as I said you need to define what is sectarian and the songs in question could certainly not be classed as that. As for bringing in legislation to deal with sectarianism, again I would totally agree with you.
26/04/2006, 11:16 AM
lofty9

What the hell is the point singing Rule Brittania and GSTQ at a football match? GSTQ is a song about an inbred women who has borne a succession of very ugly and moronic children. Other verses depict the usual nonsense about slaying Britain’s enemies, which really has no place in a civilised society never mind a modern society. As for Rule Brittania "Britons will never be slaves"!!! LEAVE THIS IN THE DARK AGES NO IDENTITY WITH A FOOTBALL MATCH.

It's your identity? The Linfield top, red, white and blue scarf - that's your identity. Songs about Linfield's history, about how many trophies you have won and anti Glentoran songs - all about your identity. But singing songs about how you want God to Save The Queen? Then go to church and pray for that.

And whilst I am ranting the same goes for the idiots who sing about a spud famine at matches. I don't want to listen to that either. I've had enough history lessons at school to know about the severities of famine and war - IMO it should stay a history lesson.
26/04/2006, 11:44 AM
stickyjoe

going around in circles on this thread.
Have to agree with David on this one though, theres nothing slightly sectarian about GSTQ(except a catholic can`t be the head of the monarchy:o ) and Rule Brittania. It might annoy people but its not sectarian.

I`d agree that I don`t see the point of singing this or any other non football songs at matches but FFS get a grip its an all island competition, what did you expect the Linfield fans to sing? Too much PC nonsense in football these days over songs
26/04/2006, 11:58 AM
lofty9

Its not a PC issue for me. It's an issue that highlights the backward society that exists in the North. If people can leave archaic chants and anthems in the past then it can help here politically and socially. Idealistic views, but every little helps.;)
26/04/2006, 6:40 PM
CollegeTillIDie

One point David made is accurate. There has never been an active no Catholic policy at Linfield. Catholics were not signed as players ,during the early part of the troubles for their own safety sake, at a time when Loyalist paramilitaries were very active. The club still employed Catholics in off field low profile capacities. The breakthrough from this impasse came in 1988 when Roy Coyle signed two Catholics from Africa, Antoine Coly and Mustafa Kamal. After that Dessie Gorman and Pat Fenlon to name but two went North and played for the club.
26/04/2006, 6:44 PM
Dassa

Quote:

Originally Posted by lofty9

Its not a PC issue for me. It's an issue that highlights the backward society that exists in the North. If people can leave archaic chants and anthems in the past then it can help here politically and socially. Idealistic views, but every little helps.;)

Personally woudnt say that a backward society exists in NI, i would say that people in NI are very defensive but i dont think it is backward.
26/04/2006, 8:53 PM
lopez

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

...There is enough political correctness without it taking over football.

Damn PC. I think it all started when someone took exception to the playing of 'All Coons Look Alike to Me' at the Jack Johnson and James Jeffries fight in 1910.:rolleyes:
26/04/2006, 10:33 PM
cheifo

So we are all agreed gentleman anthem was a bad idea.One of you wordsmiths stick an email through to whoevers responsible.Thank God
Brian Kennedy did'nt sing it.That really would have rubbed salt in the wound.:D
26/04/2006, 11:26 PM
Lux Interior

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Which would of course would explain why they were sung against Glentoran a few weeks ago. Regardless, imagine football supporters singing a song to wind up opposition supporters, the very thought of it, could be the end of the game as we know it. :rolleyes: As long as there is nothing offensive to other peoples race or religion then it is fair enough. There is enough political correctness without it taking over football.

They are sung during matches with Glentoran to 'out-Prod' the Glenmen. And you know it!

The ironic clapping and wolf-whistling from the Glenmen, in response, would suggest that your supporters are a laughing stock.

Leave it at the door.
26/04/2006, 11:30 PM
Lux Interior

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

the singing of such songs at Blues-Glens games is part of a 'who can out-prod the other' game that is often played-out between both sets of fans.

I would lay off the sweeping generalisations here, stevo.

I ain't never heard the Glenmen sing GSTQ or RB at a Belfast derby.

There are some f**kwits within our support but, by and large, we have knocked the sectarian / cultural stuff on the head.
27/04/2006, 12:09 AM
dcfcsteve

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dassa

Personally woudnt say that a backward society exists in NI, i would say that people in NI are very defensive but i dont think it is backward.

Sweet Lord Dassa - spend a decent amount of time living in any other Western nation and you'll soon change your mind here !!

Northern Ireland is an incredibly old fashioned society in soooo many ways. Attitudes in the province are decades behind the rest of the modern world on a wide range of social issues - such as rascism, homosexuality, religion, divorce, what can and can't be done on a Sunday, the role of women in society, respect for the rule of law etc .The Republic used to be considered socially more backward on issues such as these than the North, but certainly not any more.

Only in Northern Ireland could someone use the word 'darkie' without genuinely meaning any offence, and have no-one bat an eyelid in response. Says it all really.....
27/04/2006, 12:52 AM
Dassa

Sorry Steve but what you do is a general sweeping statement of a nation. Anyone I know has alot of respect for differences. I dont think it matters were you live either. I will be moving to england next year, however the past stories i hear about negative attitudes to NI people hasnt made me believe that england as a country is anti NI. Remember what you here in the news is a small fraction, you never hear about good things very often.
27/04/2006, 10:20 AM
dcfcsteve

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dassa

Sorry Steve but what you do is a general sweeping statement of a nation. Anyone I know has alot of respect for differences. I dont think it matters were you live either. I will be moving to england next year, however the past stories i hear about negative attitudes to NI people hasnt made me believe that england as a country is anti NI. Remember what you here in the news is a small fraction, you never hear about good things very often.

Dassa - there is no way to describe 1.7m people without making sweeping generalisations. Generalisations are a form of average - there will always be those who don't fit them, but they can be useful to summarise an overall scenario. Your assertion that Norn Iron isn't backward is also a sweeping generalisation, by the way.

There are people of mixed views everywhere. What in my experience makes Northern Ireland unque is that out-dated notions are still very common, and indeed often the norm, in many if not most circles. Well educated, middle class people will still openly use words like 'darkie' without intending any offence. I have witnessed and been shocked by this myself on a number of occassions. It's not necessarily that they're rascist - it's just that they don't know any better. In the rest of the UK, openly negative remarks (as opposed to those between friends) about people because of their race or sexuality are frowned upon in the majority of social circles and situations. Sure - it still happens, but just not as openly, casually, or as widespread as in NI.

Due to the insularity created in Northern Ireland by the Troubles, we haven't had to go through the education regarding race, sexuality etc etc that the rest of the UK has. Hence our attitudes are still a lot less up-to-date. There is no way to discuss this without makihg sweeping generalisations - and sweeping generalisations are not always inaccurate anyway (he said, making a sweeping generalisation about sweeping generalisations...... :D ).

P.S. I wouldn't worry about the atttudes of the English towards Norn Irish people. In 15 years of living here, I've only encountered one incident of negativity towards me that I can solely ascribe to the fact that I was Irish (and that was in 1992). The English are also bizarrely poor at differentiating between a northern and southern Irish accent (he said making another sweeping generalisation... :) ), so most don't even differentiate between the 2 parts of the island. To them, we're all just Irish, and the Irish are actually quite popular these days in England. The wimmin in particular love the aul' accent...... :)
27/04/2006, 11:15 AM
Schumi

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Well educated, middle class people will still openly use words like 'darkie' without intending any offence. I have witnessed and been shocked by this myself on a number of occassions.

How about phrases like "worked like blacks"?
27/04/2006, 12:19 PM
OneRedArmy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dassa

Personally woudnt say that a backward society exists in NI, i would say that people in NI are very defensive but i dont think it is backward.

Can I reword that slightly.

There's no more backward society that puports to be civilised than NI.

We have spent years killing each other over something that happened 400 years ago, which we continue to celebrate/revile, yet we all have a hearty chuckle at the anachronism that is Basil Fawlty when he tells us "not to mention the war" and makes a few anti-German quips.

South Africa, as a comparison, has huge problems, but it has made more progress in 10 years than NI has in the last 30/40 years.

Why do you think most reasonable thinking people with half a brain gets out of the place as soon as they can?

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Originally Posted by David
Who do people think they are telling us what we can and cannot sing.

"They" shouldn't need to. But hey, sing what you want to sing, march where you want to march, blah, blah, blah. If you can't see the futility of it all, there's no point trying to reason.
27/04/2006, 1:26 PM
CharlesThompson

Eenie meenie miney mo
catch a ****** by the toe
if he squeals, let him goe
Eenie meenie miney mo

Has anyone ever heard that in the playground. This was part and parcel of 1970's National School Playground play when I was going to National School. I'd like to think that I hadn't a feckin clue what the bloody thing meant, but it was used to pick all sorts of teams back then.

Ireland of today is under a lot of scrutiny regarding racism and its attitudes to everything regarding politically and social and moral ideals. I would like to think that we have moved markedly from this innocent yet racist schoolyard ditty toward a more tolerant society wich imbues consideration for others.

From my own perspective, I do not see how GSTQ and Rule Brittania has anything to do with the history of a football team. Believe it or not, some people I know are offended when they hear these songs and I doubt that the singers of these songs are totally unaware that they can be viewed by a sizeable amount of fellow football supporters as being offensive. While I am more inclined to consider the singing of these songs with more a sense of amusement than anything else, I can't see for the life of me the day when I go to a football match and sing Amhran na bFhiann as a vocal gesture in support of my team. It just doesn't fit.

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