Spurs/Arsenal Champions League Spot?

What another great night for Arsenal Football Club tonight in Italy.

Many of these players have been slated all season long & have once again proved the Manager doesn't do things just for the sake of it, there's a plan coming to fruitition in the league and in Europe. Boys are becoming Men.

The defence missing three full international and experienced defnders has manged to avoid conceeding a goal aginst the mighty Real Madrid & Juventus in knockout competition. After 10 minutes of tonights game they had beaten Ajax's ten year standing goals conceeded record and after 90 had added a second record by beating Milan's consequtive games record. It never looked in doubt. :)

The tactically inept Wenger has come up trumps once again in Europe and for the third consequtive time in an away game in the tactically superior land of Italian Football. They might not win the Cup and it won't matter a jot if they secure 4th place in the league anyway but this team and it's manager has proved they are a force to be reckoned with in European Football regardless of whatever happens from here on in.

I've maintained all along (and you can check my posts) that despite the sale of Vieira, despite the number of points behind Spurs, despite the poor performances, despite the alleged sale of Henry, one fact still remains..........................Arsene Knows......;)

The current edition of 4-4-2 (or should that be Four Four Two ?)has an interesting article on the origins of the rivalry between the two clubs, how Arsenal moved to Highbury in the first place, and the origins of the phrase sick as a parrot.
Well worth a purchase Spurs and Gooner fans.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KarlosIRL

I've maintained all along (and you can check my posts) that despite the sale of Vieira, despite the number of points behind Spurs, despite the poor performances, despite the alleged sale of Henry, one fact still remains..........................Arsene Knows......;)

---

Why did he give Bergkamp an extension to this contract this season if Wenger is omnicient :p ? Do you have a list of his appearances and goals this season ?

A semi-final defeat and it will be forgotten. Who, other than Leeds' fans, remember their run and where did it get O'Leary. No, Arsenal must go all the way to support your sainthood application for Wenger :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CollegeTillIDie

The current edition of 4-4-2 (or should that be Four Four Two ?)has an interesting article on the origins of the rivalry between the two clubs, how Arsenal moved to Highbury in the first place, and the origins of the phrase sick as a parrot.
Well worth a purchase Spurs and Gooner fans.

---

Any chnace of a summary?


Fever Pitch also has a very good comment on the rivarly. From what I remember, there used never be any great intensity to it, but in 1987 when Spurs were 2-0 up at half-time in the League Cup semi-final second leg, the PA announcer announced ticket details for the final! Arsenal needed no further motivation and went through. From that point on the relationship really deteriorated I think and it's quite bitter now.

I thought Arsenal were poor last night and I though Juventus were even worse. I must say Giles Summary of the game was spot on. Arsenal for some reason went down to Juventus level last night.

Also Karlos is the Champions League the same trophy that for the last 2 years you have been saying is not as important as the league which is the true worth of a team. If that is the case Arsenal struggling to finish ahead of n average Spurs side does not say much for them. Surely last season was a better season for them as they finished 2nd in the league.

Also as Owls fan points out Arsenal could go out in the semi final and finished 5th in the league and the 2 wins over Juventus and Real Madrid will count for nothing at the end of it.

Maybe I'm viewing things purely from my personal perspective, but as an Arsenal fan I felt comfortable & relaxed throughout last night's game & thought it was a job extremely well done. Banging in a few goals & entertaining was never the objective. I thought it was an extremely well executed closing out of a potentially tricky game.

Villareal will be a very different propsition alright.

Banging in a few goals and entertaining may not be the objective but I would have though keeping the ball better than they did and being a bit more positive than they were and defending a bit better at the back would have been.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NeilMcD

Also Karlos is the Champions League the same trophy that for the last 2 years you have been saying is not as important as the league which is the true worth of a team. If that is the case Arsenal struggling to finish ahead of n average Spurs side does not say much for them. Surely last season was a better season for them as they finished 2nd in the league.

Also as Owls fan points out Arsenal could go out in the semi final and finished 5th in the league and the 2 wins over Juventus and Real Madrid will count for nothing at the end of it.

---

Neill, do I really have to repeat my stance on the Champions League again? You know the answer to that so please show me where my stance has changed.

I've maintained from Day One that Wenger has had a plan for this team. I've maintained that this team is good enough to win games. I've maintained that Wenger isn't tactically inept.


You can all say it will mean nothing if they don't win the CL or finish fifth but everything has been proved to me that this is a team with a future regardless of what happens now. Unlike Leeds, we haven't spent the world on a team just to make the Champions League. A season without CHampions LEague Football would not see Arsenal relegated. Our youth is showing great potential despite being written off by everyone.

I've never lost faith in Wenger. When following my club becomes only about winning lads, then I'll hang up my boots. :)

I can't actually remember what Karlos' view on the CL is, but I think there's something a bit off when a team actually wins it without having been champions in recent memory. Liverpool for example, even though I cheered for them last year.

As an Arsenal fan, I'd normally prefer to win the league but having won the league recently more times than I ever dreamt of as a kid, I'd now prefer to win the CL just to have done it. If Arsenal were still in contention in the league this year I'd still favour the CL.

Did I ever lose faith in Wenger? Probably. I've frequently been very critical and I reckon not without just cause, but time and time again he gets things right. There've been loads of duds over the years, but the sheer quality of Eboue, as an example, just confirms how good his judgment is. They've achieved nothing yet but to be playing the type of football they've been playing recently while clearly in transition bodes very well for the future. 8 weeks ago I couldn't imagine this team would be playing so well.

That is one of my thoughts Stuttgart, I do believe there should be only one team in the champions league each year, the Champions.

My other view is that the League must the priority number one at all times. Sure I'd love to win the Champions League (as much as I love winning every cup), it would be a great night and all but winning the league is far more important to me and in my opinion more important for the stability of the club. The Champions League this season has served as a good training ground for our younger players and has helped instill confidence something I'm sure this Arsenal team has and hopefully will take into the league.

As an aside, I don't however think it's a co-incidence that Arsenal's run in Europe has come at a time when the club where out of their domestic cups. In every season we have faced such problems with that. It's been made easier this time without having to face the likes of what we faced in one week in 2004 - Utd in FA Cup Semi Final, Chelsea in C.L quarter final & Liverpool in an important League game. Just my own personal opinion on it.

Good point there Karlos, I do think that Arsenal dont have any cup commitments is helping them in the Champions League Also I do think this Arsenal team is more suited to the Champions League style of football. Have to say Arsenal were fantastic a week ago and I really enjoyed that performance. I hope they beat Villareal but I do hope Barca win it. Wenger is a manager I admire as he always wants his teams to play great football and he likes to develop young players too and is willing to give them time even if the performances or results are not there. He is quite unusual in that he does not have the win a all costs mentality.

With MUFC this week & two CL semis sandwiching a crucial grudge match against Spurs, do you think this fixture list is a hindrance or a benefit to Arsenal?

My instinct is to think that it's a disadvantage, but on reflection all the great Arsenal bursts of form under Wenger have included several key games on the trot. For example, in 2001/2 when they won 12(?) games in a row to fend off United & Liverpool. I actually think these tough upcoming games will keep them focused and will actually help them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OwlsFan

Why did he give Bergkamp an extension to this contract this season if Wenger is omnicient :p ? Do you have a list of his appearances and goals this season ?

---

I promised myself I'd come back to this Owlsfan.

I'm sure you can dig the stats yourself mate but it's common knowledge he's scored 2 goals this year compared to 8 last year, of course you do know that's with 16 more starts last season than this, don't you!! ;)

There's a few reasons why Bergkamp is still an Arsenal player. For starters, he is the most experienced member of a squad with an average age of 21 ish. If I had the time, I could pull a mountain of quotes from the likes of Robin Van Persie, Cesc Fabregas, Jose Reyes, Manu Adebayor, Theo Walcott, and even our very own Anthony Stokes, on how the influence & guidence of Dennis Bergkamp is greatly improving their game as well as just being able to train with him. Dennis' attitude & committment is second to none and is a great role model for younger players.

With such a leader in Patrick Vieira walking out the door it was imperative to keep some experience in the squad. Dennis is on reduced wages so he's not hurting the club financially. In fact one walk around Finsbury Park on a Match Day and you'll see Arsenal are probably making money due to the number of Bergkamp shirts you'll see. Had Wenger played Dennis weekly I would have a problem, but that hasn't been the case. Dennis & Wenger are both aware of his decline due to age & both more importantly are also aware of what he brings to the team, to training and to the younger players.

One could possibly argue it was Bergkamp's last minute goal at home to Thun that ignited Arsenal's Champions League run this year, saving Arsenal from an embarassing home result. It was Kolo Toure who mentioned that night in particular ina recent interview.

As always, I await with great excitement your reasoning as to why having Denis Bergkamp at the Club playing a bit part role is the sign of bad managerial skills of Arsene Wenger! :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

With MUFC this week & two CL semis sandwiching a crucial grudge match against Spurs, do you think this fixture list is a hindrance or a benefit to Arsenal?

---

In this instance I think it is a help as both competitions provide the same result - qualification for Champions League. Every game is as important as the next.

The problem in the past has come from having to juggle the team based on what is considered more important..e.g. Alliadierre starting the FA Cup Semi Final in place of Henry.

the gunners are back to there best heading for champions final just a small matter villareal beat Man u saturday while the wheels are falling off the spurs band wagon best they will end up is 5th spot, by no means a disgrace or a bad season:)

Sorry how are the wheels falling off the spurs band wagon then. One loss away to Newcastle while getting a man sent off is hardly wheels falling off the bandwagon. I expect 3 points at home to City and Man Utd are well capable of beating an Arsenal side that have travelled back from Turin while Man Utd are fresh. So the gap could be 5 points again. I said it before its going to come down to the game at Highbury, with winner takes all and draw leaving it to the last day.

Just to show you what a stupid comment it is about the wheels falling off the spurs bandwagon ism spurs have won 4 of their last 8 games and drew 2 of them. The 2 that they lost were a last minute winner away to chelsea where Chelsea are unbeaten at home and away with ten men to Newcastle. So I dont see how the wheels are falling off the spurs band wagon.

I think the weekend went more or less as I thought it might. Spurs made very hard work of a poor City side in my opinion but will be happy with coming away with the win. Keano's in fine form at the moment, great to see.

I felt Arsenal ran out of gas after 60 minutes against United today. I thought we deserved to be 1-0 up early on with the shots on goal created and all round play we had in the first 20 minutes but I wasn't surprised at all to see United take it up a gear in the second half and our recent big performances certainly looked to have taken their toll. Overall, United deserved the win in the end so credit where it's due. :ball:

As a little aside, it is ironic however to think that both Mourniho & Fergie had accused Arsenal of getting an easy ride with fixtures after Champions League games less than 9 months ago (not that it's ever mentioned now). It was of course proved as being nonsence at the time but if ever they needed confirmation of it it's been in recent months with games against Newcastle (a), Man United (a), Liverpool (h) and Blackburn (a) following directly after European games, not to mention the crunch game against Spurs coming up just over 60 hours after a Champions League Semi Final in a few weeks. It's been far from easy in that sence. :)

The results this weekend don't actually change the scenario too much - if Arsenal win all their games they will secure 4th spot. I'm still confident that they will but it is going to be a roller coaster finish

I was torn again on Saturday. Disappointed Spurs won but delighted to see Robbie play so well.

I'm quite philosphical. Would love to see Arsenal pip Spurs but winning the CL has to be the priority for Arsenal this year. Last year I was slagging Liverpool as their "ambition" was to come 4th instead of 5th. Either way that's a pretty poor performance for a club of that stature and I'd say the same applies to Arsenal, mitigated perhaps by being in transition. For a club like Arsenal qualifying for the CL can not be seen as success in its own right. Of course it matters financially but as a fan I prefer to see proper success, a big day out and a trophy to play for. Even the Carling Cup.

Spurs were all over Man City and should have beaten them by a lot more if it was not for the saves of David James. Keane again was top class. Spurs got nervous towards the end as they failed to finish City off. I think Spurs have to take something from the Man Utd game at home and beat Everton away next week. I will be at that game so looking forward to it. Bolton are gone from the race and Blackburn look flat also having dropped 4 points in their last 2 games against Wigan and Portsmouth. Some much for renovators comments that the wheels have fallen off the Spurs bandwagon, they have been shown up for the ignorant comments which they were.

Said it all along that it will be between Spurs and Arsenal for the 4th spot and it will come down to who wins at Highbury but a draw may suit Spurs.

Play up Pompey on Wednesday night.

Fourth is not all it's cracked up to be
Andrew Fifield




On the Premiership: There can only be one Premiership champion, but for a clutch of clubs bobbing beneath the league's high-water mark, fourth has become the new first.

Big deal, perhaps. Few outside north London and Blackburn give two hoots about the race to qualify for the Champions League, a tournament which, though great fun for those involved, seems rather tasteless to those viewing from afar. It is football's equivalent of bling jewellery: an ostentatious, gaudy status symbol which clubs use to dazzle and demean their peers.


It has also become something of a misnomer. The era when only the cream of a domestic league were granted the glittering reward of European football has long gone. Now, the Champions League is semi-skimmed: Liverpool, the holders, qualified despite finishing 30 points behind the 2004 Premiership winners Arsenal, while only one of this season's semi-finalists - Barcelona - is a true "champion". Milan and Arsenal were runners-up in Serie A and the Premiership last season, while Villarreal stumbled home fourth in La Liga.

Nevertheless, the Champions League is still the VIP club where everyone wants a place on the guest list. The financial rewards are well known. Clubs who enjoy a run towards the latter stages can expect to see their coffers swelled by around €40 million; but, tempting as that sounds, the cost of missing out can be just as great.

Just ask Everton. At the start of the season, Goodison Park was giddy at the prospect of Europe's greatest names swaggering into town, their place at the top table booked by a richly deserved fourth-placed finish last May. Not even the other lot's triumph in Istanbul and a tricky-sounding qualifying round draw against Villarreal could poop the party.

Then it all went horribly wrong. Before their Premiership campaign had even begun, Manuel Pelligrini's team had shoved Everton to the brink of elimination with a 2-1 first-leg win; two weeks later, Diego Forlan and referee Pierluigi Collina combined to send them toppling into despair.

For David Moyes, the Champions League turned into the cruellest hoax imaginable. Everton had neither enjoyed the glory of hosting illustrious visitors, nor the much-vaunted financial rewards. Bill Kenwright, the chairman, claimed to have made a loss on his Champions League adventure.

But the financial cost was nothing compared to the psychological damage inflicted on Moyes' players. Everton, their minds befuddled and morale bruised, lost seven of their first eight Premiership matches, sank without trace in their Uefa Cup meeting with Dinamo Bucharest, and are only now beginning to piece their season back together.

Their travails should serve as a warning. As Everton discovered, the feat of finishing fourth can only be truly celebrated three months later when an irksome qualifier has been negotiated, and when sides as accomplished as Villarreal block the path, that can hardly be taken for granted. Everton were especially unlucky. The Spaniards will joust with Arsenal for a place in the Stade de France final later this month, their polished performances belying their status as back-door qualifiers.

Negotiating the preliminary stages promises to be no easier next season. High-calibre teams such as Fiorentina, SV Hamburg, Valencia and Marseille could all be lying in wait, although that is unlikely to dampen the joy of whoever emulates Everton and snatches fourth place.

Blackburn would dearly love the opportunity to exorcise the memories of their last Champions League excursion, which ended in embarrassing failure, but it is in London that the need is most pressing.

Arsenal's membership of the G14 group of elite clubs is based more on reputation than performance, but making this season's run to the semi-finals a regular occurrence would presumably help their vice-chairman, David Dein, look his fellow bigwigs in the eye at meetings.

There is also the small matter of the club's new €500 million stadium, which was not built to host the likes of Apoel Nicosia or PAOK Salonika.

No wonder Arsene Wenger has admitted that his priority is West Bromwich Albion on Saturday rather than Villarreal, especially in the wake of their defeat at Manchester United yesterday.

Tottenham currently have the reputation as the smallest big club in the land, but that could change if they hold their nerve over the coming weeks. Martin Jol has been downplaying his side's chances all season but, with games running out, it is they who hold the killer hand.

The north London derby a week on Saturday promises to make or break the hopes of both. But even for the winner, elation should be tempered by caution. As Everton know only too well, it takes just one twist of fate to reduce dreams to rubble.