Reading star rules out Irish switch(now says he would consider it)

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Originally Posted by Dodge

I don't think people mind anybody getting citizenship. Its the active pursuit of players, with the promise of helpoing their career, that I don't like. If Clinton Morrison or Matt Holland had've got their Irish passport at age 15 they'd be treated differently

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Maybe not you, but a couple of muppetts on this thread do mind that people that haven't been born or brought up in Ireland are getting citizenship.

A least someone like Matt Holland is entitled to citizenship in the way an Irish born applicant is (Clinton needs a Foreign Births Certificate). What about a situation where constitutionally a country declares no foreigners are entitled to citizenship and then if they are good at football they are chased. Qatar is a small country, but Germany??

Let's also turn this on its head and ask what about those born in the Irish republic who don't identify with the country? I can think of two off the top of my head still alive that would get into Celebrity Big Brother. Four more that are dead who'd still manage it. Must be hundreds, if not thousands, more in the general population. (BTW: These are people of foreign parentage. Add the likes of Bob Geldof or Terry Wogan and it's no wonder the FAI have to look abroad for players who have the commitment to perform at international level :rolleyes: ).

But that commitment is a professional commitment only. Those same players try just as hard for Crystal Palace or Liverpool or whoever, it does not mean they should play for Ireland.

I don't know how any German fans feel about their government's attitude to talented Turks (et al) so I can't compare my attitude to theirs. Obviously the German immigration laws are flexible, and their attitude to non talents (?) is shocking BUT I'd have no problem is someone born outside of Ireland but having lived here for 5 years playing for Ireland. Much prefer that to the 3g's never having been here and discovering their Irishnesss purely to advance their career. Our Situation is actually closer to the Qatari one. Its both down to individuals finding a country willing to help their career.

(And before anyone starts, read my previous posts on this topic elsewhere, I have absolutely NO problem with people born outside of Ireland playing for us when they've always felt Irish (Kilbane, Babb, Kenny etc) )

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Originally Posted by Dodge

...I don't know how any German fans feel about their government's attitude to talented Turks (et al) so I can't compare my attitude to theirs.

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As a country that disenfranchised, marginalised and then murdered a group of its own people with the complicity of a large part of the nation, I don't think I'll go there. Perhaps Germans' attitudes are like the Irish. Majority are that if the player performs, then good on him. But unlike Ireland, the citizenship laws are blood centred (therefore its hard to get citizenship for German born foreigners or naturalisation). However, when it comes to granny rules, Germany is far more generous than Ireland, who calls it a day at 3g. With Germany you can go back to Catherine the Great of Russia or the American Revolution to have that land-birth link to citizenship (100 years before the German state was created).

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Originally Posted by Dodge

I'd have no problem is someone born outside of Ireland but having lived here for 5 years playing for Ireland. Much prefer that to the 3g's never having been here and discovering their Irishnesss purely to advance their career. Our Situation is actually closer to the Qatari one. Its both down to individuals finding a country willing to help their career.

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Again this suggests that being born/growing up in Ireland (26C) automatically means that you consider yourself Irish. This isn't always true.

However I agree these players are using citizenship for a career move and I understand that you don't consider them Irish in the way you would Kilbane et al. However, we're not alone in this, so why cut off our own noses? The only foreign press I've ever seen complaining about our team are the Tans, the hipocritical b*stards (Did you ever see the compilation of their cricket team in the eighties?) - nice to see that they have their readers on this board: That pint of Guinness joke is copyright of The Scum.

Every FA is guilty of this practice and even if they don't solicit citizenship for a player they like, their clubs certainly do. Don't be surprised if you see some of these Americans and Aussies in Europe who are 'gaining our respect' for baulking at playing for Ireland, possessing an Irish passport to ensure they are registered as a EU player and therefore safeguard their lucrative career in Europe.

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Originally Posted by lopez

But unlike Ireland, the citizenship laws are blood centred (therefore its hard to get citizenship for German born foreigners or naturalisation). However, when it comes to granny rules, Germany is far more generous than Ireland, who calls it a day at 3g.

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Remember Paul Butler?

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Again this suggests that being born/growing up in Ireland (26C) automatically means that you consider yourself Irish. This isn't always true.

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True but the argument isn't about people who don't want to play for Ireland. The other is a separate argument and as of now hasn't come into it in a footballing sense.

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However I agree these players are using citizenship for a career move and I understand that you don't consider them Irish in the way you would Kilbane et al. However, we're not alone in this, so why cut off our own noses?

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Well I'd consider it as doing the right thing

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The only foreign press I've ever seen complaining about our team are the Tans, the hipocritical b*stards (Did you ever see the compilation of their cricket team in the eighties?) - nice to see that they have their readers on this board: That pint of Guinness joke is copyright of The Scum.

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With due respect whats that got to do with anything? I've never read the sun in my life and like most here I've formed my opinions without their help

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Every FA is guilty of this practice and even if they don't solicit citizenship for a player they like, their clubs certainly do. Don't be surprised if you see some of these Americans and Aussies in Europe who are 'gaining our respect' for baulking at playing for Ireland, possessing an Irish passport to ensure they are registered as a EU player and therefore safeguard their lucrative career in Europe.

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Again I'd have no problem with this. I really don't mind who has an Irish passport. Its the people representing Ireland I care about

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Originally Posted by lopez

What's all this 'FIFA rule' sh*te? FIFA rules state that if a person is entitled to citizenship of a country (Tans, Welsh, Scotland, NI, Puerto Rico, etc. totally different case obvioulsy) then you can play for that country - hence the NI lads. It's not a FIFA rule; it's a national rule. Ireland, until recently, has allowed anyone born there to play for them, even if they were dropped by someone on a extraordinary rendition flight getting refueled at Shannon. Others are more choosy - until it comes to football of course (Cue Germany and Qatar) and they just hand out passports like the clap. If anyone has a problem with the criteria for citizenship, then have a go at the Justice Department, not FIFA.

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The FIFA rule "sh*te" as you call it states that players with grandparents born in a given nation can play for that country....the "granny rule" I believe they call it!

No, there's no such rule. FIFA allow anybody with Citizenship to play for that country. Some of our lads qualified for an Irish passport due to an Irish born granny, hence the nickname...

Paul Butler qualified by marriage I think. Other countries have capped players who've been eligible purely by residency.

I obviously hadn't researched this one well at all! I suppose when every other country is doing it I wrongly assumed it was a FIFA thing...

This actually changes my stance now and having read earlier posts (incl yours and Lopez's) and TH's article today I would be leaning more toward agreement with you...

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Originally Posted by Tired&Emotional

I obviously hadn't researched this one well at all! I suppose when every other country is doing it I wrongly assumed it was a FIFA thing...

This actually changes my stance now and having read earlier posts (incl yours and Lopez's) and TH's article today I would be leaning more toward agreement with you...

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In the past FIFA only asked that you qualified for citizenship until the early 90's (stand to be corrected on this datewise) when the insisted all players being passport holders. I remember being annoyed at some players using British passports in Budapest Airport when we played there in 89 or therabouts. Was there not a Brazilian who was granted a passpoprt by special decree in poland a few years back? I also remember Tony Dorigo and Gary Bailey playing for england simply on the basis of residency so the english are in no position to slag us off on this issue. (dont read them so dont really know if they stiull do this)

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Originally Posted by Cowboy

Was there not a Brazilian who was granted a passpoprt by special decree in poland a few years back?

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Nigerian? Olyisedebe (spelling?)
I think he played in Poland for a few years & then left for Greece.

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Originally Posted by Cowboy

I also remember Tony Dorigo and Gary Bailey playing for england simply on the basis of residency so the english are in no position to slag us off on this issue.

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Residency is a far more valid argument that having an Irish grand parent IMO. At least they've contributed something to the country

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Originally Posted by pete

Nigerian? Olyisedebe (spelling?)
I think he played in Poland for a few years & then left for Greece.

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yeh that is him and he plays for portsmouth

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Originally Posted by Dodge

Remember Paul Butler?

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Paul Butler who married an Irish citizen? Once upon a time a woman always took on the citizenship of her husband whether she liked it or not. Remember it wasn't long ago that they were de facto serfs who couldn't open bank accounts, etc without their husband's permission. In Ireland this extended to a consitutional rulling that they were obliged to give up work. These days in Europe, this act is contrary to human rights (obviously) and sexually discriminates. I know that if a woman marries a German male she too could become German. I'd be surprised if that didn't happen vice versa. Perhaps that's how Asamoah played for Germany.

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Originally Posted by Dodge

Well I'd consider it as doing the right thing

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That of course is your opinion. But it leaves Ireland at a disadvantage with the only benefit would be that I'd get tickets a lot easier.

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Originally Posted by Dodge

With due respect whats that got to do with anything? I've never read the sun in my life and like most here I've formed my opinions without their help

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The comment about second rate Brits and pints of guinness from el muppo on page 1 suggests that he reads the Sun or from another writer who's read it, because it's a plagiarised line from Jimmy Greaves (I also read the Scum myself as people leave it behind on trains). I've read a similar but more sophisticated line in more highbrow British rags. Point is that British newspapers have more than a fair share of the paper media in Ireland and clearly not only do some people form their opinions from it and what football they follow, but, more pathetically, they are bothered what they think of us.

The other point is that having read Spanish newspapers - the only other language I can speak well - after our seven competitive games since the early eighties, I've yet to read them complaining about Ireland's use of the granny rule. Suarez and/or Clemente complained about the state of the Lansdowne Road pitch, the aggressiveness of the players (1989:'Los lobos verdes') and other petty items. Not once did I see John Aldridge or Michael Robinson's great grandmother dragged up. Perhaps they think that's a bit rich because having already played Ferenc Puskas, Alfredo Di Stefano or Ladislao Kubalas.

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Originally Posted by Dodge

Residency is a far more valid argument that having an Irish grand parent IMO. At least they've contributed something to the country

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I was begginning to think you were someone who knew about Irish emigration, but this statement suggests that you're as clued up as Stars and Pablo. Would it have been better if their one Irish grandparent had stayed at home and 'contributed' to the country by being a burden to it? Ever heard of the Donelly Visas and how the Irish government pleaded with the US to give them an unfair allocation of Green cards? Or that Brian Lenihan told us that Ireland is too small a country to accomodate more than 4 million people? :rolleyes: Instead these people sent home large ammounts of money to help their families and Ireland's economy. So please, don't bring up the old 'they've contributed nothing' argument. They're granny probably contributed more than any of the numerous scroungers that the state still bankrolls, some of which are parents of current internationals.

FFS I've said numerous times I'm not against people of Irish heritage playing for Ireland. I just sadi I think someone living in the country for 5 years has a better claim for representing ireland. Nowehere did I say the grankids didn't have a any rights...

Oh ans of course the Spanish don't complain, they're not our neighbours.

On the Pai Butler thing, wouldn't that mean his wife would become a British citizen? If anything it'd help my arguement. Can't get citizenship that way anymore.

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But it leaves Ireland at a disadvantage with the only benefit would be that I'd get tickets a lot easier.

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Well thats if you consider success the only thing that matters re the national team. Myself I'm ****ing embarressed by the whoring of the shirt. Tom Humphries article today summed up my opinion perfectly

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Originally Posted by pete

Nigerian? Olyisedebe (spelling?)
I think he played in Poland for a few years & then left for Greece.

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I stand corrected

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Originally Posted by Dodge

Residency is a far more valid argument that having an Irish grand parent IMO. At least they've contributed something to the country

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I'm not so sure if its for a short period, when criteria like this are open to interpretation I think it devalues international football.

Well in Ireland, its 5 years and one day. Not too short a time IMO

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Originally Posted by Dodge

FFS I've said numerous times I'm not against people of Irish heritage playing for Ireland. I just sadi I think someone living in the country for 5 years has a better claim for representing ireland. Nowehere did I say the grankids didn't have a any rights...

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As your response was to a Nigerian who left Poland for richer pickings shortly after gaining citizenship to play international football, I thought this was a poor choice of suggesting residents contribute more.

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Originally Posted by Dodge

Oh ans of course the Spanish don't complain, they're not our neighbours.

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Spain doesn't complain because they aren't our neighbours. It's because 5 - 10% (close to 100% regarding NI) of its population doesn't qualify to play for Ireland. That's what the British FAs are worried about. England have consistently shown that they are willing to utilise the granny rule. They took advantage of Rhodesia and South Africa's isolation in the seventies/eighties. When someone does it to them, their press goes into overdrive. The tans believe they 'lost' some decent players to the 'poaching' of the Irish (some who would have played for them; some who wouldn't). O'Leary, McGrath, Lawrenson, Townsend, etc. They'd love the residency style situation that operated before the sixties.

Now their clubs intimidate vulnerable 2G youngsters to be one-cap-wonders at 16 so that their options are curtailed. While you should know who you are at that age, not everyone is sufficiently brave nor politically sophisiticated as Kilbane and Breen. I met the mother of a QPR YTS youth (Trevor Challis ??) at a RoISSC meeting in 94 who told me that the options her son were given by Gerry Francis was either play for England Youth or face his career being terminated.

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Originally Posted by Dodge

On the Pai Butler thing, wouldn't that mean his wife would become a British citizen? If anything it'd help my arguement. Can't get citizenship that way anymore.

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I mentioned that the system was revamped in response to sexual equality legislation. The first time I saw this was in the early eighties when a German played for Austria by being married to an Austrian. There's no doubt that Butler used it purely to benefit himself.

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Originally Posted by Dodge

Well thats if you consider success the only thing that matters re the national team. Myself I'm ****ing embarressed by the whoring of the shirt. Tom Humphries article today summed up my opinion perfectly

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Where's the whoring of the shirt? These people are entitled to Irish citizenship. As I said before if anyone doesn't like it, contact the Minister for Justice. The problem is approaching people to gain Irish citizenship. While I certainly find it unsavoury, I think its hardly embarrassing, not just because I couldn't give a f*ck what the British press masquerading as Irish newspapers think - and let's be honest here, that's who you are embarrased by, because who else is complaining? - (in fact if it p*sses them off so much, then IMHO go for it); but because it is a common practice throughout the Europe and the World.

I respect Kitsons opinion, However, I happen to disagree with it.

can't fault the guy for being fortright in his views though.

Nationality and citizenship are purely legal matters and there to be availed of or not by those entitled to avail of them.

Beyond footballing merit, the only line you can draw on who plays for us and who doesn't is what they are entitled to under civil or state law. Thereafter, if they've not contravened any football rule, FIFA couldn't give a flying fcuk ...and nor should they.

http://oneteaminireland.bravehost.com/

DAVE Kitson has done an about turn with regard to his international future. He now says he will consider playing for Ireland if Steve Staunton comes knocking.This is in complete contrast to his remarks last week when he said he had no intention of declaring for Ireland.

But Reading's 25-year-old striker insisted he has had no contact from the new Republic boss.

Staunton will soon name his Ireland squad for their friendly against England's World Cup group opponents Sweden at Lansdowne Road on March 1.

Royals striker Kevin Doyle is almost certain to be involved and winger Stephen Hunt also has a chance following his recent impressive form.

But so far Kitson, who qualifies through an Irish grandmother, has had no contact with the Irish FA.

However, ex-Liverpool star Staunton has been keeping track of Kitson and was at the Madejski Stadium recently when he banged in a brace in the 2-0 victory over Coventry City.


Kitson, who has 17 goals in all competitions this season, admitted: "If they (Republic of Ireland) decide to make a move I would have to think about it.


"I don't want to be presumptuous so we will have to see. Until that happens I can't say one way or the other.


"But if you want to play international football and you're eligible for two countries you have to have a serious think.


"You have to be pretty outstanding to play for England these days and Ireland to a lesser extent because they have a smaller population.


"They've worked the 'grand-parent rule' well in the past as have Scotland and Wales and it's certainly helped them.


"Smaller countries have to explore every avenue but nobody has telephoned me yet and until that happens I won't be thinking about it."

If Staunton is trying to rebuild the morale of the team and instill the fighting spirit back into the squad, he should look no further than Kitson's Reading team mates Kevin Doyle and Shane Long.

Dave Kitson has no real desire to play for Ireland and hopefully that knock at the door will not come from Staunton.