Michael Noonan's hoodie ban

Simple fact is that ASBOs criminalise young people. If they are guilty of crimes, then find the evidence, charge them and convict them. ASBOs are yet another example of the criminal justice industry gone mad - like CCTV and extra police powers. What happens in the UK now, happens here soon. Just look at Noonan's idea cogged from the Brits.

Bare in mind that we have an election looming with the added fact that the Daily Mail will be published here from January. Then we'll see the Noonan's and McDowells trying to outdo each on being "tough on crime" for the Mail and Irish Indo readers.

Also, both main blocks (FF/PD and FG/Lab) are right-wing and this is only going to get worse. As I said yesterday Blair lost his 90 Days vote but it has still been increased to 28 days. Scary stuff, and personally I put individual liberty way, way ahead of dealing with "skangers" or "chavs". BTW It's not a criminal offence to fall in to either of these categories.

As Adam says put more cops on the beat, Steve's point about high vis cops actually proves Adam's point. They are meant to be high vis to deter crime not to catch criminals. Deterrence works far better than anything else but it seems to have been left behind in the rush to criminalise large sections of society and to hand draconian powers to untrustworthy police forces.

KOH

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WeAreRovers

Simple fact is that ASBOs criminalise young people. If they are guilty of crimes, then find the evidence, charge them and convict them. ASBOs are yet another example of the criminal justice industry gone mad -
KOH

---

well you dont get an asbo for helping old ladies across the street , you get it because you break the law , people who break the law are criminals , its not the asbo criminalising them its there own actions ,


the whole point of asbo's is to stop young kids having to be sent to jail which is just a criminals college ,and in most cases finding the ring leader and taking him out of the situation does actually work .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peadar

I also think that... passports should contain biometric data.

---

Ours will within a couple of years. Its an EU thing[quote]

Quote:

---

If you've nothing to hide, you've nothing to fear.

---

Unless databases can be hacked?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dodge

Unless databases can be hacked?

---

Or sold.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dahamsta

you'll have no objection to walking around in the nude

---

Adam, if you went outside every once in a while, you'd see that it's bloody freezing! Besides, other men get penis envy when I'm nude. :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by anto1208

well you dont get an asbo for helping old ladies across the street , you get it because you break the law , people who break the law are criminals , its not the asbo criminalising them its there own actions ,

---

You're not getting me - if you break the law you are punishable under the law. ASBOs are outside the normal criminal justice system. Obviously people who break the law are criminals but they should be dealt with under the ordinary statues of the law.

KOH

correct by the word of the law Rovers but well off in real terms and of no comfort to people who's lives are made a misery and an expensive misery at that by these people.

Given a choice between preferring to see some chavs and waahs made prisoners in their own homes by their own actions -or my 70 something parents, my wife and my 7 month old kid made prisoners in theirs by having to surrender the streets to them -I know which option I'll take thanks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie

Given a choice between preferring to see some chavs and waahs made prisoners in their own homes by their own actions -or my 70 something parents, my wife and my 7 month old kid made prisoners in theirs by having to surrender the streets to them -I know which option I'll take thanks.

---

Without being facetious - First they came for the chavs and I did nothing.......

KOH

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dodge

Ours will within a couple of years. Its an EU thing

---

Actually it's not Dodge, it's an American thing; or rather it's driven by America, and the EU isn't complaining very loudly. The US administration is requiring certain countries to implement biometric passports by a certain date if their citizens want to visit there. Ireland is one of those countries being bullied, both directly by America, and indirectly via the EU.

Bulliying and blackmail, pure and simple. This is what our friends are reduced to.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peadar

Besides, other men get penis envy when I'm nude.

---

Funny, they laugh their holes off when I'm around. But it's not the size of the wave that counts, it's the motion of the ocean. :)

KOH, you should edit that with the rest of the quote, most people won't get it as is and it's a very telling quote.

adam

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dahamsta

KOH, you should edit that with the rest of the quote, most people won't get it as is and it's a very telling quote.

adam

---

I think the original was by Niemoller, referring to the Nazis:
First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out - because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out - because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews and I did not speak out - because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me - and there was no one left to speak for me.

You'd better hope Godwin's Law doesn't come into this Adam. ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WeAreRovers

Without being facetious - First they came for the chavs and I did nothing.......

KOH

---

I'll do better than nothing -I'll tell them where they are. And when they're done they can come back for those lovable rogues who think local authority estates provide a legitimate forum for them to indulge their equestrian, rallying and motocross pursuits.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WeAreRovers

Without being facetious - First they came for the chavs and I did nothing.......

KOH

---

It is a bit facetious. What's the next line, "Then they came for the drunk drivers and I did nothing"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Macy

It is a bit facetious. What's the next line, "Then they came for the drunk drivers and I did nothing"

---

Macy, Macy, Macy!!!! Drunk-driving is illegal, being a chav isn't. This FG/Lab coalition's going to be very friendly altogether. ;)

John 83 - Cheers for fishing out the Pastor Niemoller quote.

KOH

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dahamsta

Actually it's not Dodge, it's an American thing; or rather it's driven by America, and the EU isn't complaining very loudly. The US administration is requiring certain countries to implement biometric passports by a certain date if their citizens want to visit there. Ireland is one of those countries being bullied, both directly by America, and indirectly via the EU.

---

No the EU started it way before the Americans. Its actually been an EU law the past few years but we (ane evryone else) are way behind. The visa waiver requirement of a MRZ on passports and now the biometric stuff came later. Helped speed it up maybe but the Eu was miles ahead of the US in this field...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WeAreRovers

Drunk-driving is illegal, being a chav isn't.

---

I think the 'v' in chav stands for violent, so it probably is.

The point of ASBOs is that there are a lot of things which are annoying but you'll never be up in court for them. If you're harassing an elderly neighbor by kicking a ball up against her door all day or throwing eggs at her house it's perfectly correct that the guards have some means of stopping you without locking you up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dodge

No the EU started it way before the Americans. Its actually been an EU law the past few years but we (ane evryone else) are way behind. The visa waiver requirement of a MRZ on passports and now the biometric stuff came later. Helped speed it up maybe but the Eu was miles ahead of the US in this field...

---

I did not know that. Can you point me in the direction of some docs about this please, I'd like to read up on it.

Cheers,
adam

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dodge

No the EU started it way before the Americans. Its actually been an EU law the past few years but we (ane evryone else) are way behind. The visa waiver requirement of a MRZ on passports and now the biometric stuff came later. Helped speed it up maybe but the Eu was miles ahead of the US in this field...

---

There was a piece on Today FMs Last Word about a month ago on all of this, cant remember who spoke on it but was fairly good, .... the piece ... not the actual passports !!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WeAreRovers

Simple fact is that ASBOs criminalise young people. If they are guilty of crimes, then find the evidence, charge them and convict them. ASBOs are yet another example of the criminal justice industry gone mad - like CCTV and extra police powers.

---

It is nonesense to say that ASBO's criminalise young people ! It's like saying drink-driving laws criminalise drivers - when clearly they only criminalise those drivers who are doing something wrong.

ASBO's are just a legal document that says 'a judge has agreed that there's evidence of you acting anti-socially. Stop it, or you'll face stipulated legal actions'. Some ASBO's come with restrictions built-in based on previous misdemeanours, some are merely warnings of restrictions for any future such misdemeanours. They are therefore a means of forcing uncontrollable people to self-discipline/control/police *themselves*. Something that they appear unable to do without such drastic measures.

They are also not outside the law - they are an intrinsic part of the criminal justice system in England and Wales (and, I believe, Scotland). If they were outside of it, they would be legally unenforceable.

The evidence required to secure an ASBO *shows* that these people are guilty of crime. Evidence is required to grant one - and it often involves their terrified neighbours having the bravery to come out with evidence/witness statements. Evidence that the neighbours wouldn't provide for isolated individual low-level criminal acts under the usual laws, as they know nothing will happen to the perpetrators - who would then make their life an even greater misery for grassing on them. The law is completely ineffective at dealing with ongoing low-level criminality - particularly by those under 18. The perpetrators get nothing but endless cautions. If the law was made more robust on this, then you'd be complaining about criminal scentences and incarceration being handed out for graffiti. The Police have better things to spend their time on than chasing petty criminals who get away with ongoing crime because it is relatively trivial.

No-one here has suggested a workable alternative to tackling petty anti-social behaviour. Demanding extra police is simply not workable - as society does not want to pay the increased taxes required to hit DaHamsta's 'sweet spot' of effectiveness (which could require tens of thousands more Police nationwide). So without ignoring political realitieis - what is the alternative ???

You bemoan the "criminal justice industry going mad". Most people bemoan the fact that society is falling apart, personal security is worse now than it has been for years, and areas that were once pleasant to live in have been reduced to no-go zones in the hands of gangs of feral kids. Perhaps the increase in criminal justice is merely a reflection of increase in low-level criminality, and society's exasperation at it ? Cause and effect...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

It is nonesense to say that ASBO's criminalise young people ! It's like saying drink-driving laws criminalise drivers - when clearly they only criminalise those drivers who are doing something wrong.

ASBO's are just a legal document that says 'a judge has agreed that there's evidence of you acting anti-socially. Stop it, or you'll face stipulated legal actions'

---

And that sir is effectively my point. Drink driving laws protect us against drink drivers. The Guards must have a reasonable suspicion to stop a driver, they must then either breathalyse or take a urine sample. The next step is to charge the individual (that's Garda talk for person. ;) )

Then the individual is summonsed to court where a judge listens to the Guard's evidence - if he or she shows up - and the judge then decides on a punishment if appropriate.

On the other hand, with ASBOs, a guard asks a judge to deem that an individual is acting in an anti-social manner and the judge slaps an ASBO on them. No court case, no due process, no right to appeal and the end result is that little bástard is now criminalised - in other words they have a black mark against them without the normal process having taken place.

Here's another bleeding heart liberal site I found which explains what I mean.
http://www.asboconcern.org.uk/

KOH

So let's assume for the moment that ASBO's are bad, wrong etc.

How then do you suggest low-level anti-social activity is tackled ? Beforeyou say 'through the usual procedures' bear in mind thatanti-social beaviour is incredibly difficult to tackle through the established legal process (which is wny ASBO's were dreamed-up) for the following reasons :

- The perpetrators are often very young, and therefore fall outside of most of the serious penalties within the criminal justive system. This fact is often well known to the perpetrators, who are well aware of the limitations of the Police's rights and the appropriate penalties.
- It is incredibly difficult to secure prosecutions when key witnesses are afraid to come forward, or where the 'crime' does not involve tangible evidence (e.g. hintimidation/harassment, racial, homophobic or sectarian abuse)
- The perpetrators are often in large gangs, with their identities obscured, so identifying the culprits accurately at the scene of the crime is very difficult.
- The Police do not have the resources to adequately tackle such low-level crime and thuggery, nor realistically will society accept paying for them to do so.

As I said at the very start, I don't like ASBO's. But I'll ask again - what is the viable alternative to make the uncontrollable element within society develop the required self-control ? What other realistic measures will tackle this problem ??