Ireland Vs Italia (inc scores)

I swa this quote from Kerr after the match:

``We've been very slavish in Ireland in general about 4-4-2 and it's benefits.
It's fine, but it depends on the players you have.
``When you look at Italy, in their last three matches they've played three
different systems - 4-3-3, 4-4-2, and in this game 4-3-2-1.
``Because there's not too much change or variation in the English league, I
don't think that's particularly good for a player's education.
``It's not something we can do anything about, but I still think we did well,
created chances with 14 decent attempts on goal.
``I wanted to play the team we did. I will look at it again and review it in a
calmer environment. I will think about things and make my decisions over the
next few weeks.''

Very professional response I thought. Last night was one of the first times in years I didn't have any issues withy team selections or substitutions.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I swa this quote from Kerr after the match:

``We've been very slavish in Ireland in general about 4-4-2 and it's benefits.
It's fine, but it depends on the players you have.
``When you look at Italy, in their last three matches they've played three
different systems - 4-3-3, 4-4-2, and in this game 4-3-2-1.
``Because there's not too much change or variation in the English league, I
don't think that's particularly good for a player's education.
``It's not something we can do anything about, but I still think we did well,
created chances with 14 decent attempts on goal.
``I wanted to play the team we did. I will look at it again and review it in a
calmer environment. I will think about things and make my decisions over the
next few weeks.''

Very professional response I thought. Last night was one of the first times in years I didn't have any issues withy team selections or substitutions.

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Agreed re the team selection and the substitutions. It was a freindly and variations need to be looked at. Was happy to see him try a different formation also. It maybe something for the future but for now he needs to revert to 4-4-2 for France match.

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Originally Posted by Dotsy

for now he needs to revert to 4-4-2 for France match.

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I think he will. I'm not sure I'd disagree with Stickyjoe's team selection above.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I think he will. I'm not sure I'd disagree with Stickyjoe's team selection above.

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That's the team I'd pick

I just read Mark Lawrenson's analysis in the Irish Times. I mostly agree with the analysis of the shape & its merits / demerits but I totally disagree with the tone, like last night was some kind of disaster. Kerr was right to have a look at a 3 man central midfield without Roy Keane, even if it was only to rule it out as a viable option in a competitive match. I honestly think that if we have both Keanes back we'll play 4-4-2, and most likely will anyway regardless of who's available.

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Originally Posted by soccerc

From the comfort of the barstool or couch?


Don't comment on what you haven't seen live...............Clint worked his ass off in a difficult formation......................................... ..... then again I;ve seen your comments on the U21's V NI :)

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I didnt see the game until TV3 showed it. I was just going on reports from radio.

CLintion did a lot of work last night, running etc, but his finishing wasnt great.

He could have done better with those shots he had, how many were on target ?Same about the handball because he made a good turn.

Im a fan of Clint, he has done well for us. No substitute for robbie though.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I just read Mark Lawrenson's analysis in the Irish Times. I mostly agree with the analysis of the shape & its merits / demerits but I totally disagree with the tone, like last night was some kind of disaster. Kerr was right to have a look at a 3 man central midfield without Roy Keane, even if it was only to rule it out as a viable option in a competitive match. I honestly think that if we have both Keanes back we'll play 4-4-2, and most likely will anyway regardless of who's available.

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Mark Lawerenson is a fan of 4-4-2 keep it simple approach. One of his pet hates is when teams try to use different tatical formations.

Kerr was dead right in trying out 4-3-3 again. If we get any friendlies again before the WC it might be worth another look. It might throw the French off as to what formation we will play. If Roy and Robbie are fit then its defitnely going to be 4-4-2.


here is lawersons article btw.

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Ireland playing 4- 3-3 just doesn't add up
Mark Lawrenson




Analysis: That was an experiment in Lansdowne Road last night that has, hopefully, been binned. It's the first part of the match that counts. Forget the last half hour. They make changes, we make changes. People come and go, it's the first hour that counts and, in that time, I tried to understand the logic of Brian Kerr and I couldn't do it.

I hope next month in the World Cup qualifying match against France we play 4-4-2. That's what Irish teams do. They do 4-4-2. I remember when Mick McCarthy first took the job and he experimented with 4-3-3 and 5-3-2. He had a little look at everything, but no. Once we go to 4-4-2, it's is what we do best. Everyone knows the role well.

I looked at Reid, Holland and Kilbane in midfield doing the job of two men, or rather, doing the job two men could have done. It was a formation where no one really appeared to know what it was.

The great problem was Morrison up front with Duff and Andy Reid trying to feed off him. Reid Holland and Kilbane in midfield were very tight and that was a problem because we never stopped the Italian full backs getting out. More often one ball beat the three midfield players. They were like a daisy chain in the first half, almost like they were holding hands in there.

Then you'd Vieri dropping off the two Irish centre backs and linking everything up for Italy. The centre backs weren't sure whether to come tight to him and in the end nobody was picking up. Ireland had lots of numbers, but no one was picking up. It was a classic case of people knowing they'd numbers in there, but forgetting to pick up and that's what happened.

To be honest about it, if after half an hour it had been 3-0 to Italy nobody could have complained. When players don't pick players up it's like they're not sure of what they are supposed to be doing. That lack of surety then spreads throughout the side.

Obviously, this was a dress rehearsal for the French game next month. If somebody like Zidane is going to get the time and space in behind the midfield players that we gave last night, then Ireland won't be anywhere near them. I know Roy Keane will probably be back and we'll have to assume we cannot play that system.

Hopefully, Kerr will change his mind and say 'this system that I've tried to play was a bit of an experiment and if you seriously think I'm going to play that way against France it will be like Joan Of Arc'. It was that simple.

The other problem was that in the first half when you don't have much of the ball and you're forever chasing ball, you end up playing Hollywood balls all the time.

Poor old Clinton Morrison. They were sticking balls up to him. He's got Nesta and Cannavaro all over him. He couldn't even hold the ball up to get Reid and Duff into the game.

Basically, your two best attackers, Reid and Duff, are completely nullified. And it just spread right through the team. Shay Given made a couple of brilliant saves early on, but you know it's a real worry. I always look at these games and analyse them for the first hour.

As I said, forget the last half an hour when all the best players play. Yes, sure in the last half an hour we had a couple of chances, a couple of saves and Stephen Elliott showed a little bit of promise, but it's after the event. Duff also had a few runs down the left and you could see what he can do.

I'm now looking at the French and hoping that he's going to go 4-4-2. Because, out wide, players will tuck in. They'll defend. I mean, when you play against a team like Italy, you have got to compete in midfield. Pirlo must have thought he was playing on his own pitch. He'd so much time and so much space, it was frightening.

It would have been interesting to have had a microphone at the home of Mr Roy Keane, wouldn't it? It is a long time since an Irish team has been out-played in that sort of way and the thing is that last night we contributed to our own downfall.

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"Hopefully, Kerr will change his mind and say 'this system that I've tried to play was a bit of an experiment and if you seriously think I'm going to play that way against France it will be like Joan Of Arc'. It was that simple."

Does anybody know WTF he is talking about with the Joan of Arc reference :confused:

I think she got burnt or something .. i dont exactly konw..

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... you end up playing Hollywood balls all the time.

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Big Ron eat your heart out :o

I think it was fairly obvious that the irish team was all over the place centrally for the first 30 mins, Holland Reid, Dunne Cunningham and Kilbane did not know where to go on the new system and found it hard to pick up the italian runners. After the Italian 2nd goal we seemed to get going as we scored straight away and then controlled the match for the rest of the game. In my opinion John O Shea had his best game for Ireland in a long time. He has been poor and short of confidence over the last season or 2 but last night he was trying his old tricks going down the wing beating players and he put in a few crunching tackles. He seems to have a bit more agression this season as I noticed that when he played for Man Utd too. I thought he did better than Holland in midfield and he is a very good passer of the ball when he is in the central positions. Dont rule O Shea out as a future replacement for Keane, if Glenn Whelan does not progress like he should.


I thought that Dunne and Cunnigham and Matt Holland lacked match sharpness and were exposed time and time again. O Brien played very well when he came on and he will be a certain starter in September. I thought Andy Reid showed for the ball more than any player last night and some of his passsing was great, but he needs to add a bit more consistancy to this game.

Duff was great going forward when he got the ball, but a few times he passed his man on when there was nobody to pick him up but I think in a competitive game he would have followed him.

Once again Given showed why that, only Czech and Buffon are probably ahead of him in the world when it comes to playing in goals.


Overall a good nights entertainment and it will mean we have a good few things to sort out between now and September. However I think it was a good friendly to have a much better than a simple 1 or 2 nil win against a team not trying to play. The italians really went for it for about 60 minutes.

Overall I think the team for the France game will be

Given

Carr/Finnan
Cunningham
O Brien
O Shea

Andy Reid
Keane
Kilbane
Duff

Keane
Morrisson


The only decision to make for me is at Right back and its a close call.

I'm worried about Kilbane. When he's playing well he's great, but when he's playing bad he's one of the worst players on the planet. Did you see his assist for Italy's first goal? Christ on a bike, he couldn't have placed the ball any better.

Then in the second half he comes out and plays well.

But which Kilbane will show up for the France game? I don't know if it's a risk I'd be willing to take as a manager.

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Originally Posted by thejollyrodger

One of his pet hates is when teams try to use different tactical formations

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Yes, as exemplified by the following:

I tried to understand the logic of Brian Kerr and I couldn't do it
Oh come on Mark. Just cos it didn't really work doesn't mean there was no logic in trying it. I could easily see the logic & several others here seem to agree. Fair play Brian Kerr.

I remember when Mick McCarthy first took the job and he experimented with 4-3-3 and 5-3-2. He had a little look at everything, but no. Once we go to 4-4-2, it's is what we do best.
Yeah but that was 9 years ago with totally different players, most of them inexperienced & unsuited to the roles given to them.

Only 11 years ago we beat Italy in a competitive WC Finals match playing a defensive 4-5-1. What does that say?

I agree with his assessment of the midfield 3 though. The most obvious local exponent of the 4-5-1 is Chelsea. A lone frontman struggles to score regularly so the defence must be rock solid. One of the midfield 3 does nothing but hold. The wide men are key (and Duff & Reid both did well yesterday) but so too is having an attacking midfielder to add to the frontman's contribution. We didn't get the midfield balance right last night.

It would have been interesting to have had a microphone at the home of Mr Roy Keane, wouldn't it? It is a long time since an Irish team has been out-played in that sort of way and the thing is that last night we contributed to our own downfall.
Was Roy even weatching? Remember he only "flicked" through the Iran game:) I doubt Roy gives two hoots about last night's result. He knows more than anyone just how irrelevant friendlies are.

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

In my opinion John O Shea had his best game for Ireland in a long time. I thought he did better than Holland in midfield and he is a very good passer of the ball when he is in the central positions.

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I agree entirely. I thought he looked like the O'Shea of a couple of years ago. Lovely footwork at times.

I hope he keeps his place ahead of Heinze in next 2 weeks because I still have a mistrust of him at left back, especially when he's not playing regularly at club level. I think Kerr will pick him, but on last night's performance the only spots in any doubt are the full-back roles. For what it's worth I thought Harte did well too, poor free kicks aside.

If there are any definitive lessons from yesterday it's that Holland just doesn't bring anything to the party, O'Brien is still a good bit ahead of Dunne, O'Shea and Steven Reid may have more to offer midfield in the nearish future and that Andy Reid must play against France.

Most time I have given Kerr the benifit of doubt.
Even as Lawrenson suggests the possibility that he was trying to purposely pull the wool over the French observers, I would be critical of Kerr's performance last night.
If the players have been training under his supervision over the last days then why would he start with Dunne and Holland, with both players obviously no where near their sharp levels.
I understood that you start with your best 11 or least a fit and sharp 11 even if its a friendly.
As regards the formation, it is late in the day to be trying out a new formation of one up front as your starting point in a home game with 2 big home games on the horizon.
Even if Elliot is not likely to start against the French imo he should have started up front with Morrison, we would not have missed Holland.
When Holland was injured then at least Elliot could have come on.
In theory its fine having Duff on the left wing and expect a supply of crosses and passes, but what do you do when the defence send out another 2 players to stiffle him, at one time there 4 players queueing to dispossess him and no Robbie Keane making runs to deflect.

Previously I thought Ireland would beat the French now it would be a very good result to come back from a goal down and equalize in the second half.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I agree entirely. I thought he looked like the O'Shea of a couple of years ago.

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Im a big fan of O'Shea but he has been poor of late. His passing from full back is terrible. I too thought he played well in midfield, but maybe it was the fact that Holland hid from the game. O'Shea then worked hard in that position and because his passing was short he gave it away less.

I don't think you should necesarily start with your best 11 in a friendly. Sometimes, like in the case of Dunne for example , it's a good idea to plan for the contingency that, say, O'Brien is injured.

I'm not sure how you can expect everyone to be sharp & fit in the middle of August. With the exception of Steven Reid all of our central midfield options have had limited pre-season training or pitch action. Roy Keane was unavailable. So was Kavanagh. Kilbane only came on late against MUFC, Holland didn't play last weekend & it seems Miller last played a full game about 2 years ago. Dunne's injury we all know about, likewise Cunningham's ribs / lung. A match like this is ideal to get everyone match fit.

If this team is to evolve & develop I don't see why it's late in the day to experiment. Friendly matces are exactly the time to experiment.

Just read football365.com's review of the England game last night. They pointed out that England lost 2-0 to a top class Holland side in August of 2001, the same side who we beat 4 weeks later, so I'm not too disappointed after last night's game, the performance later into the match was heartening, and it's good to know we do have options in all positions, and if nothing else could be taken from the game, we started and finished the game with an entire side of premiership players, it's been a while since that happened!

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Originally Posted by brine3

I'm worried about Kilbane. When he's playing well he's great, but when he's playing bad he's one of the worst players on the planet. Did you see his assist for Italy's first goal? Christ on a bike, he couldn't have placed the ball any better.

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Agree. I thought he was poor last night. You're looking for quality at this level and he has none, he was giving away the ball left right and centre and showed no tactical awareness whatsoever. But, he ran around alot, got a few tackles in and gave away a free or two and to some people that's fantastic.

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Originally Posted by Slash/ED

Agree. I thought he was poor last night. You're looking for quality at this level and he has none, he was giving away the ball left right and centre and showed no tactical awareness whatsoever. But, he ran around alot, got a few tackles in and gave away a free or two and to some people that's fantastic.

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I think Josh has far better technical ability than killer and I long for the day where Josh plays like he did in the first half. It would start to solve a lot of problems in the Irish setup.

The defeat doesn't really worry me. The 4-3-3 formation doesn't really suit the players we have and Morrison was left too isolated (still a worthwhile exercise to look at it though) and presumably we'll play 4-4-2 against France and do better. Left-back is a problem though. Neither Harte nor O'Shea looked comfortable. Harte diving in by the East touchline was unbelievable from an international defender, he didn't get near the ball and had the Italian not jumped over him, Harte would been off. I'd agree with the people above who want Finnan (who had a good game I thought) at left back but I don't think it will happen.