Youth Player discussion

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

You're going to have very very few 18-year-olds going straight into big teams regardless. I don't think that's too relevant. But they're all young enough still (25 tops) and starting at top clubs.


I don't think your proof stacks up. Of course Dortmund have helped Haaland get to where he's at now. But the point is did playing for Molde in a professional senior league benefit him more than playing for Dortmund's U21s in empty stadia? I think it has to have.


I think you're missing an important point here. The LoI right now is struggling to provide a good alternative. The players who came through - Coleman, McClean, Long, Murphy, etc, etc - by and large came through when the top flight was mostly professional. That's not been the case for ten years though, and the players have dried up. You need a professional environment - at home or abroad - at the age of, say, 18-21, and the LoI is a big failing in that regard; it can't really offer that.

Bottom line - we can't keep relying on other countries to develop our players. It's a busted flush and it's not the route other countries are going down. Yes, some top top players will still leave at 16, but it can't be our Plan A. Partly because we're just hamstringing ourselves, and also, again, because of the negative impact it can have on those who are out of the system by 19/20

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But that’s an indication that going abroad and playing in better leagues is what got them to top teams, not playing in their domestic league.


Before Haaland was at Dortmund when he was at Red Bull Salzburg he didn’t get a sniff at all in his first season and exploded onto the scene in their second season and what helped was Dabbur was sold so he got a chance and took it with both hands. It was playing for a team like Salzburg in the CL that improved him, not playing at Molde.

But even then and now while different comparatively aren’t really that different as the gap is just as wide. Which is why they all didn’t go straight into first teams in England upon signing. Whatever the environment what’s important is playing games, it’s typical in Ireland for us to focus too much at what we don’t have rather than what we do have and what we do have is a senior game which gives a chance to play football and once they are playing football that’s all that matters. You may have a point with someone like Long or Murphy but not really on McClean or Coleman as it’s not a whole lot different then than now and they still got to where they got to.


Maybe not at 16 for most but definitely at 18 or 19, ideally when they have finished their education or they have matured a bit more. And hopefully they aren’t told to just go to England in a blindfold, hopefully they are advised to go to the best place for that individual rather than told go to the safest/ most common place, it’s nice seeing Zefi and Heffernan from our u15s looking at Italy.

Of course the LoI isn't going to supply the national team. I'm not saying that at all.

But the players in that Euro sample I mentioned earlier typically left their domestic league around 20-22, not 16. That's a big difference development-wise and maturity-wise. And money-wise for the domestic game, which can improve the facilities for future young players. But yeah, in an ideal world, a player comes through an LoI club, gets 100 senior games (including some in Europe) by 21, and then moves abroad. And I agree, that shouldn't just be to England.

Haaland scored a goal every other game for Molde the year before joining Salzburg btw, including four in five in Europe. He improved at Salzburg, sure, but let's not say he was a nobody at Molde.

Also, I disagree that "playing football" is all that matters - playing in a professional environment (as opposed to a part-time one) is a huge factor, and it's one that we are finding much harder to offer here. The current environment is significantly different to when Coleman/McClean were here. Who's fully pro now - Rovers and Dundalk? And Dundalk are signing any random foreigner they can get their hands on. There were a lot more professional spots on offer 10-20 years ago.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Of course the LoI isn't going to supply the national team. I'm not saying that at all.

But the players in that Euro sample I mentioned earlier typically left their domestic league around 20-22, not 16. That's a big difference development-wise and maturity-wise. And money-wise for the domestic game, which can improve the facilities for future young players. But yeah, in an ideal world, a player comes through an LoI club, gets 100 senior games (including some in Europe) by 21, and then moves abroad. And I agree, that shouldn't just be to England.

Haaland scored a goal every other game for Molde the year before joining Salzburg btw, including four in five in Europe. He improved at Salzburg, sure, but let's not say he was a nobody at Molde.

Also, I disagree that "playing football" is all that matters - playing in a professional environment (as opposed to a part-time one) is a huge factor, and it's one that we are finding much harder to offer here. The current environment is significantly different to when Coleman/McClean were here. Who's fully pro now - Rovers and Dundalk? And Dundalk are signing any random foreigner they can get their hands on. There were a lot more professional spots on offer 10-20 years ago.

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But even when it comes to players hitting their potential, Haaland became the star he was from what he did at RB Salzburg, not at Molde. Almost all the players mentioned became the players they were at decent leagues such as the Eredivisie, Pro League, A-Bundesliga etc, not their own league.

You’ll have to give some examples as it’s tricky to talk about when I don’t know which team is which in this argument.

But despite that he still didn’t get a sniff which indicates that RB didn’t think he was ready for that level bare in mind it wasn’t even a massive step up comparatively.

If you play for Shamrock Rovers, Bohemians, Dundalk etc I don’t think it’s that much of an issue at a young age, maybe somewhere like Waterford or Finn Harpes etc it may be a problem but the three I mentioned at professional enough, it doesn’t have to be ground breaking it just needs to have a process similar to what you’d get in professional leagues. It really isn’t, I’ve been watching closely since 2010 and it really hasn’t changed that much, maybe since 2005 but definitely not since I’ve been watching which was about 2010. Certainly not at Sligo rovers, maybe you could have a case at somewhere like Shamrock Rovers but definitely not at Sligo or even Derry.

Haaland wasn't given the chance to do what he did at Salzburg at Molde in fairness. Molde are a step below Salzburg, sure, but they've gone a reasonable way in Europe before and are no minnows. No particular reason Haaland couldn't have continued to improve at Molde. He would have to move on eventually of course.

I don't know what you mean by this bit -

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You’ll have to give some examples as it’s tricky to talk about when I don’t know which team is which in this argument.

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The league is a lot weaker now than it was in 2010. Only Dundalk's very fortunate EL group stage qualification kept the LoI from dropping to 45th or so in the UEFA rankings this year (and we start next year 46th) We were 29th in 2010. That's a big drop off.

Derry are bottom of the league this year. Technically that's better than where they were in 2010 when they were dumped down to the First Division, but there's no way you can make an argument that Derry haven't disimproved markedly in recent years.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Haaland wasn't given the chance to do what he did at Salzburg at Molde in fairness. Molde are a step below Salzburg, sure, but they've gone a reasonable way in Europe before and are no minnows. No particular reason Haaland couldn't have continued to improve at Molde. He would have to move on eventually of course.

I don't know what you mean by this bit -



The league is a lot weaker now than it was in 2010. Only Dundalk's very fortunate EL group stage qualification kept the LoI from dropping to 45th or so in the UEFA rankings this year (and we start next year 46th) We were 29th in 2010. That's a big drop off.

Derry are bottom of the league this year. Technically that's better than where they were in 2010 when they were dumped down to the First Division, but there's no way you can make an argument that Derry haven't disimproved markedly in recent years.

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Because there is difference between looking good in the Norwegian league and the Austrian league, pretty clear. He could have improved, no way he would have got to where he is now though. Just like Odegaard and Sorloth wouldn’t have.

I don’t know what teams you are referring to.

The UEFA ranking is meaningless in this regard as all it does it calculate ranking based on how teams have done in Europe from each country. A lot of it is subjective. I’ve actually watched the league closely for a decade so I would know that there isn’t much difference between now and 2010 and if there is any change it’s pretty insignificant.

Put it this way, are you saying Coleman had more professional treatment at Sligo Rovers than the current Rovers,Dundalk,Bohemians players have now? Not a chance in hell yet look at him now, same can be said for McClean.

I don’t know what you are trying to say with Derry.

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Originally Posted by CSAD

If you play for Shamrock Rovers, Bohemians, Dundalk etc I don’t think it’s that much of an issue at a young age, maybe somewhere like Waterford or Finn Harpes etc it may be a problem but the three I mentioned at professional enough, it doesn’t have to be ground breaking it just needs to have a process similar to what you’d get in professional leagues. It really isn’t, I’ve been watching closely since 2010 and it really hasn’t changed that much, maybe since 2005 but definitely not since I’ve been watching which was about 2010. Certainly not at Sligo rovers, maybe you could have a case at somewhere like Shamrock Rovers but definitely not at Sligo or even Derry.

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I differ here, I think meeting other elite emerging players ( or not if LOI based ) is a huge hindrance developmentally. The three sides you pick out, fair enough but they play well within themselves most of the time in the league. That high standard week in week out honing / improving competition isn't here. You get the odd one beat the odds, Manning is one, but they generally seem to be finding their level as Championship squad filler or L1

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Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke

I differ here, I think meeting other elite emerging players ( or not if LOI based ) is a huge hindrance developmentally. The three sides you pick out, fair enough but they play well within themselves most of the time in the league. That high standard week in week out honing / improving competition isn't here. You get the odd one beat the odds, Manning is one, but they generally seem to be finding their level as Championship squad filler or L1

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What I meant was as a club as a whole, if you are playing outside this group you’ll tend to be more part time where in this group you’ll tend to get more professional training, enough for the players to develop before leaving for England or Europe at 17/18. It’s not something sustainable and in reality our best players who are mentally ready should go earlier if possible but the ones who aren’t ready and may need to fill out abit of mature abit can stay abit longer maybe finish their leaving very etc before going. Coleman beat the system and arguably has been the best player we have produced over the last decade, it’s ideal if they stay here if they get senior level games or are involved in the senior set ups, the youth side I agree as it is a shallow pool here in terms of good teams and outside of Dublin there really isn’t much competition but if you are someone like Coleman and playing senior football week in week out it can be a huge benefit before heading over.

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Originally Posted by CSAD

What I meant was as a club as a whole, if you are playing outside this group you’ll tend to be more part time where in this group you’ll tend to get more professional training, enough for the players to develop before leaving for England or Europe at 17/18. It’s not something sustainable and in reality our best players who are mentally ready should go earlier if possible but the ones who aren’t ready and may need to fill out abit of mature abit can stay abit longer maybe finish their leaving very etc before going. Coleman beat the system and arguably has been the best player we have produced over the last decade, it’s ideal if they stay here if they get senior level games or are involved in the senior set ups, the youth side I agree as it is a shallow pool here in terms of good teams and outside of Dublin there really isn’t much competition but if you are someone like Coleman and playing senior football week in week out it can be a huge benefit before heading over.

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I don't see evidence of this in terms of providing players who will improve our national side though, do you ? There are lads in and around the squad because we have nothing else, who in years past wouldn't have been in the conversation internationally at all but that is not indicative of a system or quality within a system functioning in this respect IMO. Coleman and Keane before him are a once on a blue moon lucky swing example but overall, how many lads from Bohs / Rovers / Dundalk have gone over and given us international options ?

Clarke / Bolger / McGrath / McMillan / Towell / Boyle / Grant ( a development signing at a struggling Huddersfield which the first team manager wasn't even directly involved in ) / Burke / Horgan ( yes he is in our squads but he has hardly flourished UK side ) all off the top of my head stuck around at those clubs.

Cork before their most recent implosion had a few go over too I think in recent times but I cant remember their names, one to Hull who was on loan in Scotland maybe. Limerick while briefly doing an impression of competence had Ogbene ( ex Cork TBF ) / O'Connor / Cotter & Gaffney go over. The first three got decent Championship moves to Brentford, Leeds & Ipswich but none made it stick at that level.

This is where a relatively small top division of an AIL might in time remedy this or begin to, which I am guessing is why its potentially of interest to both the FAI and IFA because we both have the same problem facing us, diminishing returns from crops sent to England and the leagues as they are, falling short of requisite quality and numbers to improve the two teams on the island.

But that is a whole other conversation :)

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Originally Posted by CSAD

Because there is difference between looking good in the Norwegian league and the Austrian league, pretty clear. He could have improved, no way he would have got to where he is now though. Just like Odegaard and Sorloth wouldn’t have.

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But you're still not really addressing my point. I don't deny that you have to move on to improve. But I'm saying starting at home - in Haaland's case with a full season and a European campaign at Molde - is better than being stuck in a meat-factory academy in terms of development at, say, 16-19.

The difference between the Norwegian league and the Austrian league isn't massive btw; you can't attribute all Haaland's improvement to suddenly moving to Austria. He was on a curve anyway.

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Originally Posted by CSAD

I don’t know what teams you are referring to.

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I don't know what you're referring to though when you say you don't know what I'm referring to. I can't clarify the point because I don't know what you're pointing at.

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Originally Posted by CSAD

The UEFA ranking is meaningless in this regard as all it does it calculate ranking based on how teams have done in Europe from each country. A lot of it is subjective. I’ve actually watched the league closely for a decade so I would know that there isn’t much difference between now and 2010 and if there is any change it’s pretty insignificant.

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Hold on - the UEFA ranking isn't meaningless or subjective. It's based on factual club results in European campaigns. Yes, you could say you can get one bad draw and your points in a tie won't reflect your standing and maybe an Elo-style rating would be more accurate, but over a long time period - I've taken ten years - that all roughly balances out, and a drop from 29th to 46th is very significant. Also, the 29th was a collective effort across a lot of teams as the league had strength in depth; our current ranking of 37th is boosted by Dundalk reaching the EL group stages twice (once quite luckily). Now one of those is dropping off, we're dropping to 46th. So the strength in depth in the league is much less, and increasingly we've become a 2/3-team league. Which domestic results over the past five years have shown.

I've also "actually watched" the LoI closely over the past decade and the standard has definitely dropped. Which stands to reason given (a) less transfer fee income, (b) the country went backrupt in the meantime and other income streams were hit and (c) 3 extra teams to field at a cost of €25k or so a pop. Ultimately, less money will have a big hit on a club's first-team.

The Derry point is fairly clear - you're saying they're around about their 2010 level, but I'm seeing them bottom of a poor league and not unexpectedly so. How can they be similar to 2010 in that case?

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Put it this way, are you saying Coleman had more professional treatment at Sligo Rovers than the current Rovers,Dundalk,Bohemians players have now? Not a chance in hell yet look at him now, same can be said for McClean.

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I don't think you can use the words "professional" and "Dundalk" in the same sentence at the moment!

More professional than Shamrock Rovers? No. More professional than Bohs, a part-time team? Of course. And the strength in depth point above comes back into it as well. In the 2000s there were several clubs who could offer a professional setup - Shels, Drogheda, Cork, Derry, etc. It wasn't sustainable of course, but they could do it at the time and they produced national team players. They can't do that now, and it's to the detriment of the players at those clubs now.

So for now, most ambitious players do have to go abroad at 16, but I've shown that 90% of top European players don't do that. I've shown that fewer and fewer of our players are getting the chance to go abroad (because English clubs can sign players from anywhere in the world now). We need to stand up on our own two feet - like every other country in Europe - and offer our players the chance to develop in a professional environment here. While we don't do that, we'll continue to see national squads as weak as we see now.

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Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke

overall, how many lads from Bohs / Rovers / Dundalk have gone over and given us international options ?

Clarke / Bolger / McGrath / McMillan / Towell / Boyle / Grant ( a development signing at a struggling Huddersfield which the first team manager wasn't even directly involved in ) / Burke / Horgan ( yes he is in our squads but he has hardly flourished UK side ) all off the top of my head stuck around at those clubs.

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That's certainly the case now alright. In part because the league has declined in quality, probably also not helped by underage coaching continuing to fall behind standard norms as well.

Go back to the 2000s and you had Hoolahan, McClean, Fahey, Murphy, Quinn, Long, Ward, Meyler, Sammon, etc Fahey is the only one who went to England at 16, but he came back here at 20 to rebuild. The others had careers of varying length in the LoI, but none of them left before 18/19 at the earliest.

There were failures too of course - there always will be; it's a numbers game. But those players 10 years ago would all make the current national squad (yes, even Sammon). Is it a coincidence that a largely pro league had its best ever output to the national team, markedly better than the 90s and than the 2010s, when in both cases the league was much poorer? I don't see how it can be.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

That's certainly the case now alright. In part because the league has declined in quality, probably also not helped by underage coaching continuing to fall behind standard norms as well.

Go back to the 2000s and you had Hoolahan, McClean, Fahey, Murphy, Quinn, Long, Ward, Meyler, Sammon, etc Fahey is the only one who went to England at 16, but he came back here at 20 to rebuild. The others had careers of varying length in the LoI, but none of them left before 18/19 at the earliest.

There were failures too of course - there always will be; it's a numbers game. But those players 10 years ago would all make the current national squad (yes, even Sammon). Is it a coincidence that a largely pro league had its best ever output to the national team, markedly better than the 90s and than the 2010s, when in both cases the league was much poorer? I don't see how it can be.

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Sammon was pro (well actually probably semi-pro after being amateur) for, what, six months before he went to Scotland though? Don't think it explains it fully either.

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Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke

I don't see evidence of this in terms of providing players who will improve our national side though, do you ? There are lads in and around the squad because we have nothing else, who in years past wouldn't have been in the conversation internationally at all but that is not indicative of a system or quality within a system functioning in this respect IMO. Coleman and Keane before him are a once on a blue moon lucky swing example but overall, how many lads from Bohs / Rovers / Dundalk have gone over and given us international options ?

Clarke / Bolger / McGrath / McMillan / Towell / Boyle / Grant ( a development signing at a struggling Huddersfield which the first team manager wasn't even directly involved in ) / Burke / Horgan ( yes he is in our squads but he has hardly flourished UK side ) all off the top of my head stuck around at those clubs.

Cork before their most recent implosion had a few go over too I think in recent times but I cant remember their names, one to Hull who was on loan in Scotland maybe. Limerick while briefly doing an impression of competence had Ogbene ( ex Cork TBF ) / O'Connor / Cotter & Gaffney go over. The first three got decent Championship moves to Brentford, Leeds & Ipswich but none made it stick at that level.

This is where a relatively small top division of an AIL might in time remedy this or begin to, which I am guessing is why its potentially of interest to both the FAI and IFA because we both have the same problem facing us, diminishing returns from crops sent to England and the leagues as they are, falling short of requisite quality and numbers to improve the two teams on the island.

But that is a whole other conversation :)

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I’m not really disagreeing with any of that, I’m just seeing an argument that the league has changed in standard in 10 years significantly which from my own viewing I don’t really see much difference if any at all. I’ve always said that the best players who are ready mentally for the challenge should go to England or Europe but maybe the ones not quite ready yet who need to fill out more can stay a little longer before heading over.

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Originally Posted by CSAD

I’m not really disagreeing with any of that, I’m just seeing an argument that the league has changed in standard in 10 years significantly which from my own viewing I don’t really see much difference if any at all. I’ve always said that the best players who are ready mentally for the challenge should go to England or Europe but maybe the ones not quite ready yet who need to fill out more can stay a little longer before heading over.

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Maybe standards in other places have accelerated away from the LOI. Standards in such a competitive field such as professional football are always improving and more and more so the higher up you go. The top level is always improving and many Countries haves also improved ~ ~ Its a tough old game as can be seen on the strains / pressures on some young Irish lads in Britain. Even being the Great Hope of your own family can be a hell of a strain. Sure some of the family relations / friends are going to lose the run of themselves with their dreams / hopes / what have ya !

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Originally Posted by seanfhear

Maybe standards in other places have accelerated away from the LOI. Standards in such a competitive field such as professional football are always improving and more and more so the higher up you go. The top level is always improving and many Countries haves also improved ~ ~ Its a tough old game as can be seen on the strains / pressures on some young Irish lads in Britain. Even being the Great Hope of your own family can be a hell of a strain. Sure some of the family relations / friends are going to lose the run of themselves with their dreams / hopes / what have ya !

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The big difference now is money, if you look at for example Cyprus,Azerbaijan,Kazakhstan etc they have brought in a lot of foreigners which help drive the league forward but then you see countries like Turkey and Greece where the league seems to be decreasing in standard when the money isn’t flowing as much!

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

That's certainly the case now alright. In part because the league has declined in quality, probably also not helped by underage coaching continuing to fall behind standard norms as well.

Go back to the 2000s and you had Hoolahan, McClean, Fahey, Murphy, Quinn, Long, Ward, Meyler, Sammon, etc Fahey is the only one who went to England at 16, but he came back here at 20 to rebuild. The others had careers of varying length in the LoI, but none of them left before 18/19 at the earliest.

There were failures too of course - there always will be; it's a numbers game. But those players 10 years ago would all make the current national squad (yes, even Sammon). Is it a coincidence that a largely pro league had its best ever output to the national team, markedly better than the 90s and than the 2010s, when in both cases the league was much poorer? I don't see how it can be.

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But again where is the evidence for this? Also if the underage coaching is poorer why are our underage teams playing better than before?

Of those players you mentioned how many played for Ireland while they were here?
Excuses won’t get us anywhere.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

But you're still not really addressing my point. I don't deny that you have to move on to improve. But I'm saying starting at home - in Haaland's case with a full season and a European campaign at Molde - is better than being stuck in a meat-factory academy in terms of development at, say, 16-19.

The difference between the Norwegian league and the Austrian league isn't massive btw; you can't attribute all Haaland's improvement to suddenly moving to Austria. He was on a curve anyway.


I don't know what you're referring to though when you say you don't know what I'm referring to. I can't clarify the point because I don't know what you're pointing at.


Hold on - the UEFA ranking isn't meaningless or subjective. It's based on factual club results in European campaigns. Yes, you could say you can get one bad draw and your points in a tie won't reflect your standing and maybe an Elo-style rating would be more accurate, but over a long time period - I've taken ten years - that all roughly balances out, and a drop from 29th to 46th is very significant. Also, the 29th was a collective effort across a lot of teams as the league had strength in depth; our current ranking of 37th is boosted by Dundalk reaching the EL group stages twice (once quite luckily). Now one of those is dropping off, we're dropping to 46th. So the strength in depth in the league is much less, and increasingly we've become a 2/3-team league. Which domestic results over the past five years have shown.

I've also "actually watched" the LoI closely over the past decade and the standard has definitely dropped. Which stands to reason given (a) less transfer fee income, (b) the country went backrupt in the meantime and other income streams were hit and (c) 3 extra teams to field at a cost of €25k or so a pop. Ultimately, less money will have a big hit on a club's first-team.

The Derry point is fairly clear - you're saying they're around about their 2010 level, but I'm seeing them bottom of a poor league and not unexpectedly so. How can they be similar to 2010 in that case?


I don't think you can use the words "professional" and "Dundalk" in the same sentence at the moment!

More professional than Shamrock Rovers? No. More professional than Bohs, a part-time team? Of course. And the strength in depth point above comes back into it as well. In the 2000s there were several clubs who could offer a professional setup - Shels, Drogheda, Cork, Derry, etc. It wasn't sustainable of course, but they could do it at the time and they produced national team players. They can't do that now, and it's to the detriment of the players at those clubs now.

So for now, most ambitious players do have to go abroad at 16, but I've shown that 90% of top European players don't do that. I've shown that fewer and fewer of our players are getting the chance to go abroad (because English clubs can sign players from anywhere in the world now). We need to stand up on our own two feet - like every other country in Europe - and offer our players the chance to develop in a professional environment here. While we don't do that, we'll continue to see national squads as weak as we see now.

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He was in a meat factory at RB though, wnt over and got little to no game time until his second season.

Wait so a gap of 2,000 coefficient points is huge in comparing the LOI in 2010 to now but a gap of 21,050 co efficient points in comparing the Austrian league and Norwegian league isn’t much of a gap? You can because it took him a a season to break into the RB team which wouldn’t be the case if the standard was similar.

Again like I said you can’t use the rankings to comparing the LOI then to now and then ignore it in comparing the Austrian and Norwegian league. Also Dundalks 2 EL count next season as it’s the 2015-2016 that is being removed next season.


Derry weren’t even in the league in 2010 so even being last is an improvement surely.


It’s a circus at the minute but the Dundalk players are technically professional and far more so than the environment Coleman was in when he came through yet he came good. What did they though so that made professional can you tell me just so I can go and fact check it as I’m not convinced.

Hasn’t hurt Denmark sending so many players abroad as kids so it’s not really a valid excuse.

Maybe we have DNA problems = = We don’t get very big on average. I reckon that the size of players in to top league in Britain has increased by a huge amount even in the last 20 years. Remember when a lot of the midfielders were the average height of Irish Men.

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Originally Posted by seanfhear

Maybe we have DNA problems = = We don’t get very big on average. I reckon that the size of players in to top league in Britain has increased by a huge amount even in the last 20 years. Remember when a lot of the midfielders were the average height of Irish Men.

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Collins, Omobamidele,Bazunu,Idah,Parrott to name afew are pretty big, don’t think it’s that much of a factor tbh.

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Originally Posted by CSAD

Collins, Omobamidele,Bazunu,Idah,Parrott to name afew are pretty big, don’t think it’s that much of a factor tbh.

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Cullen, Knight are very small for Midfielders in the British Premiership for example. Brady is small. Hourihane is slight. I have probably left out a few more. An Irish team would probably be on average much smaller physical specimens that a premiership team for example. Even the Spanish in performance are not what they were.

Actually three of the five you mention have other DNA that makes them bigger and maybe stronger.

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Originally Posted by seanfhear

Maybe we have DNA problems = = We don’t get very big on average. I reckon that the size of players in to top league in Britain has increased by a huge amount even in the last 20 years. Remember when a lot of the midfielders were the average height of Irish Men.

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Really not an issue. Footballers are always smaller than you imagine in person. Irish footballers aren’t small. Height wise as a nation, we’re very much on the taller end of the spectrum anyway.