The 2016 GE thread

For a start I'd ignore election promises because no party can keep them once they get in to power because the money isn't there to finance them.

The Health Service is a black hole. If you want to try and fix it, you'll have to pour billions at it and therefore no tax cuts. no extra money for pensioners and no money to spend and therefore no bump in the economy. Then the world recession comes round on the usual cycle and health spending (along with everything else) has to be cut. It's a vicious circle.

I'll vote for the party likely to do the least damage.

The notion that you have to spend billions fixing the health service does not stand up to any sort of scrutiny. Out health spend per capita is up there if not higher than most of our European counterparts - there is no reason why with a modest increase in spending it can't and shouldn't become world class. There should be no reason why anyone should be on a hospital trolley ever and there should be no reason why people living in Donegal or Kerry should have to travel all the way to Dublin for treatment for whatever reason.

Actually embarrassed for Labour with this advertisement.

https://scontent-bru2-1.xx.fbcdn.net...46&oe=576AC413

Quite like that actually.

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Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid

The notion that you have to spend billions fixing the health service does not stand up to any sort of scrutiny. Out health spend per capita is up there if not higher than most of our European counterparts - there is no reason why with a modest increase in spending it can't and shouldn't become world class. There should be no reason why anyone should be on a hospital trolley ever and there should be no reason why people living in Donegal or Kerry should have to travel all the way to Dublin for treatment for whatever reason.

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Exactly. People in Donegal should head to Derry and those in Kerry should go to Limerick and Cork.
People aren't prepared to accept "best practice" in a lot of instances and trying to get the "one for everyone" in the audience attitude out of Irish politics is maddening.

I've had to be around the health service a lot since last summer due to a family illness, both out-patient and in-patient. I couldn't fault what I experienced. The pinch points seem to be in Emergency admissions. If Primary care centres or minor hospitals existed properly for minor injuries and for longer opening periods of time we would remove triage (and habitual Emergency users) from A&E's.

It depends on the condition for me. With modern medicine becoming more specialised certain rare conditions, particularly paediatric conditions, will be best treated in Dublin. But the people are reasonable. Where that is the case people will accept the logic of that

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Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid

The notion that you have to spend billions fixing the health service does not stand up to any sort of scrutiny. Out health spend per capita is up there if not higher than most of our European counterparts - there is no reason why with a modest increase in spending it can't and shouldn't become world class. There should be no reason why anyone should be on a hospital trolley ever and there should be no reason why people living in Donegal or Kerry should have to travel all the way to Dublin for treatment for whatever reason.

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I can't claim to be an expert on the health service but if "a modest increase" would render it world class, then I am amazed that every Government hasn't been able to see this and you have.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

I can't claim to be an expert on the health service but if "a modest increase" would render it world class, then I am amazed that every Government hasn't been able to see this and you have.

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That's for sure anyway.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

but if "a modest increase" would render it world class,

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I didn't say it would - i said it SHOULD.

If you reconcile what other countries spend on health and compare it to what we spend on health and look at the comparative health services in those countries, then it paints a bleak picture of the HSE and successive governments. Too many vested interests, layers and layers of management, expensive medicine and an not enough emphasis on need rather ability to pay.

This is a HSE that can tell you rates of absenteeism in nurses by region - but ask them for Trolley numbers? - No they leave that to the INMO.
This is a HSE that can't find the money to fill all available doctor and consultant positions required but give them an election gimmick like free GP care for under 6 - no problem.
Ask yourself why we spend so much money training the best Doctor's and nurses in the world only to see them working everywhere but here.
There are literally thousands of unanswered questions and comments like that about our Health services - it would make you think we spend sweet FA on health.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

[B] then I am amazed that every Government hasn't been able to see this and you have.

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You are amazed? I'm amazed the last two Ministers for health didn't need help tying their own shoelaces for fck sake.

Leo Varadkar I had some hope for but he just accepts things as they are. Maybe as a doctor himself he can get an improvement if FG return.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

For a start I'd ignore election promises because no party can keep them once they get in to power because the money isn't there to finance them.

.

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Plenty for the banks though:(

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDb92dLhMS0

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Originally Posted by BonnieShels

Exactly. People in Donegal should head to Derry and those in Kerry should go to Limerick and Cork.
People aren't prepared to accept "best practice" in a lot of instances and trying to get the "one for everyone" in the audience attitude out of Irish politics is maddening.

I've had to be around the health service a lot since last summer due to a family illness, both out-patient and in-patient. I couldn't fault what I experienced. The pinch points seem to be in Emergency admissions. If Primary care centres or minor hospitals existed properly for minor injuries and for longer opening periods of time we would remove triage (and habitual Emergency users) from A&E's.

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In theory you're right Bonnie but with that is the need for a lot of education of the public and a change of culture. Easier said than done. I work for a health region in SK and we opened 2 primary care clinics over the last 5 years. The impact on ER demand has been next to non-existent with CTAS 4s and 5s (lowest acuity ER presentations) staying level. Healthcare is a conundrum in a lot of countries. That said we have halved our ER wait times over the last 3-4 years just by attacking the processes around triage, diagnostics and admissions/discharges.

I've been keeping my eye over on boards and they seem to think that the media is awash with FGers.

But from what I can make out after every poll is that FG's (and to a lesser extent SF) results are played down when up and crisis when down. Meanwhile FF's results are played up like crazy when up a point and almost disregarded when down or unchanged.

It's ridiculous. I can see the trend continuing til Thursday morning before the embargo where a whopper result for FF will send them into election day with the favourites tag.

Considering what happened to this country from 2008-2011 it's scary and baffling. Maybe not baffling cos Irish people are pillocks.

The media doesn't regard it's job as informing or reporting any more (if it ever did), it believes that it needs to make news exciting and gripping in order to justify itself and stop the drift towards social media reporting. That means bluster and guff, and in this case looking for an underdog to champion. FF is the only party available that can be classed (by an entirely stretched definition) as an underdog, that can actually achieve something and not make them look like complete langers afterwards. So they'll lightly play up FF, and be "hard" on FF/LAB.

I just don't really read the news any more. I check the local paper website a couple times a week, check RTE, the Guardian and the BBC maybe once a week, when I run out of Reddit. Everything else comes from Reddit or from a person's mouth. "News" just angers and bores me.

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Originally Posted by BonnieShels

I've been keeping my eye over on boards and they seem to think that the media is awash with FGers.

But from what I can make out after every poll is that FG's (and to a lesser extent SF) results are played down when up and crisis when down. Meanwhile FF's results are played up like crazy when up a point and almost disregarded when down or unchanged.

It's ridiculous. I can see the trend continuing til Thursday morning before the embargo where a whopper result for FF will send them into election day with the favourites tag.

Considering what happened to his country from 2008-2011 it's scary and baffling. Maybe not baffling cos Irish people are pillocks.

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I thought it was just me with my long standing ABFF bias! Some of the commentary has been ridiculous, but most of it has come from the usual pro-FF sources (current and former INM hacks). I caught a bit of the mid week week in politics and Anne Harris was just ridiculously pro-FF. And another long standing issue is the number of (again particularly FF) former candidates/ spin doctors that are wheeled out and no mention of their history or potential bias.

The number of undecideds is still not really being spoken about, or how hard the independent votes are. I guess the media can't loose - they'll talk up based on (mainly) margin of error poll changes, if it doesn't come off it'll be the polling companies fault not their fault.

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Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid

That's for sure anyway.

I didn't say it would - i said it SHOULD.

If you reconcile what other countries spend on health and compare it to what we spend on health and look at the comparative health services in those countries, then it paints a bleak picture of the HSE and successive governments. Too many vested interests, layers and layers of management, expensive medicine and an not enough emphasis on need rather ability to pay.

This is a HSE that can tell you rates of absenteeism in nurses by region - but ask them for Trolley numbers? - No they leave that to the INMO.
This is a HSE that can't find the money to fill all available doctor and consultant positions required but give them an election gimmick like free GP care for under 6 - no problem.
Ask yourself why we spend so much money training the best Doctor's and nurses in the world only to see them working everywhere but here.
There are literally thousands of unanswered questions and comments like that about our Health services - it would make you think we spend sweet FA on health.



You are amazed? I'm amazed the last two Ministers for health didn't need help tying their own shoelaces for fck sake.

Leo Varadkar I had some hope for but he just accepts things as they are. Maybe as a doctor himself he can get an improvement if FG return.

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"Should" or "would" I suspect you meant the same thing.

As to how much we spend on health, a slightly out of date index here:

http://gamapserver.who.int/gho/inter...ing/atlas.html

Less that I thought but then this was at the height of the recession and certainly less than many of the EU countries. The USA a whopping 17.1 and when you add that to the amount they spend on the military, there must be shag all money left for anything else. Only Tuvalu spends more!!

When successive Governments don't get to grips with a problem, then there is obviously more to the problem that self-evident quick fixes. I have a friend who was casualty consultant in a hospital in Wales and the overcrowding there is almost as bad so the NHS is necessarily the ideal model.

What sort of clown is Enda ? He's now claiming that the whingers remark was directed at FFailers in Castlebar! When in a hole, stop digging.

The People's Debate makes me wish thee was an alternative to democracy.

FF are abhorrent.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

What sort of clown is Enda ? He's now claiming that the whingers remark was directed at FFailers in Castlebar! When in a hole, stop digging.

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One of the websites has the flier that it supposedly caused the comments. It is pretty whingy in fairness. For me, the apology/ backtracking is worse...

In other news, FG canvassers apparently take advantage of the Sinners inability/ laziness to actually use a letter box properly... Probably a joke about letter bombs in there somewhere! http://www.independent.ie/irish-news...-34476773.html

Regarding health - the health funding figures. Is that based on HSE funding or actual Health spending? Despite the "get rid of the pen pushers" mantra a lot use, the HSE still does a lot of purely non health related administrative work.

I'd bet there are a large amount of people right on-board with the "whingers" comment.

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Originally Posted by NeverFeltBetter

I'd bet there are a large amount of people right on-board with the "whingers" comment.

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Like with a lot of this election, it was mainly the media creating a story, and giving FF the opportunity to say "arrogance" about a million more times imo. I haven't heard it be the subject of any office/ water cooler/ kitchen talk in work anyway, although I believe Joe DuFFy got a whole show out of it!

Hard to see a game changer tonight either. Media again talking up the debate, and Kenny having to do something other than ok, but I'm not really convinced he has too. I still wouldn't be surprised by a big swing from "undecided" to "incumbents" on Friday.

So the latest polls show FG on 30. Again. And yet the headline was about FF's rise and teh consistency of that rise. You couldn't make it uyp.

EDIT: they changed the headline on RTÉ to: Fine Gael hold steady, Labour on wane
http://www.rte.ie/news/election-2016...ion-redc-poll/

At this rate I would be very happy with some sort of FG/SF/LB/SD coalition as fantastical as that may sound.