Champions League last 16

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

So u rather get knocked out in the second round phase than the semi finals then. So if you dont win it there is no point in entering. The ideas is to get as far as possible. The facts are arsenal have only made the last 8 during his time there. for teh quality of players he has at his disposal that is under achieving. Why did you pick the last 5 years is that because Utd won it in 1999 nearly 6 years ago now. Also both Manchester Utd and Chelsea and Leeds have all come closer to winning it thatn Aresenal have. i.e they all got to the semi's in the last 5 years.

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Obviously you want to do well in the competition but come May I won't be walking around with a happy smile because we got to a semi-final. It's the one trait I share with Mr. Roy Keane, you shouldn't be happy with losing or getting a draw in professional sport. To explain what I mean, take Leeds as a great example. Leeds and Arsenal are similar clubs in the sence of size and wealth (at least back when Leeds where in the CL). Leeds got further than Arsenal, would have earned significantly more money than Arsenal, and look at where they now find themselves. Leeds spent a lot of money on chasing the european dream and it was without question a contributing factor in their demise. Arsenal have on the other hand improved their squad by our managers development of youth, lacking confience players and the keeping of the strict wage policy at the club.

So if you are asking me if I'd like to spend millions on replacing the squad and be happy with reaching a semi-final and putting the possible future of the club in jeopardy then the answer is no. I'm far more content with winning league titles spending little money, being in a great european competition and winning no less trophies than our big spending rivals. I'm much happier at the prospect of having a new stadium to visit to watch the best Arsenal team I've ever seen than an away game at Brentford or so.

FYI - the reason I said the last 5 years was that I know all the Manchester United fans hate Liverpool fans blabbering on about past glories in past decades and that they wouldn't want to be tarred with the same brush of thinking that past glories make up for present day ineffiicentices in europes top competition.

p.s. Apologies to Leeds fans but it is a good comparision considering the league and fiancial status that both clubs held at the same time

You can pick whatevers facts suits your argument but in my opinion and if I was an arsenal supporter I would be disappointed with a return of 2 quarter finals during the reign of Wenger. The question is why cant Arsenal transfer their success in the Premiership into the Champions League. My theory is that Wenger is tactically short at that level where Champions League requires you to adapt and change tactics during a game etc. Teams in the premiership role over very easy and as a result utd, Chelsea and Aresenal are so far better than the rest.

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

My theory is that Wenger is tactically short at that level where Champions League requires you to adapt and change tactics during a game etc. Teams in the premiership role over very easy and as a result utd, Chelsea and Aresenal are so far better than the rest.

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so what's your theory on Chelsea last year and Ranieri?

Cladio Ranieri's Chelsea went further in Europe and knocked Arsenal out but couldn't get within spitting distance of them in the premiership. Do you think that because Wenger can get the better of him in the premiership but not in a european game that he is worse tactically than Cladio Ranieiri???

This surely makes Ranieri a far better coach regardless of his lack of trohies in the english domestic game.

It's all about the players and what they do on the day, managers can only do so much.

No I would never be stupid enough to form an opinion on the bases of one match or one season but I tend to base it on a time span of 5 to 10 years s then you can really get an idea of a managers capabilities as luck injuries etc tend to really even themselves out over time. Ranieri has only one trophy to his name Spanish Cup at Valencia. ( I could be wrong he may have won something at Fiorentina) I would not class him as a top class manager. He got the better of Arsenal that night but I dont think he is better than Wenger.

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

The facts are arsenal have only made the last 8 during his time there. for teh quality of players he has at his disposal that is under achieving. Why did you pick the last 5 years is that because Utd won it in 1999 nearly 6 years ago now. Also both Manchester Utd and Chelsea and Leeds have all come closer to winning it thatn Aresenal have. i.e they all got to the semi's in the last 5 years..

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later! ;)

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

No I would never be stupid enough to form an opinion on the bases of one match or one season but I tend to base it on a time span of 5 to 10 years .

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So we are agreed now that Chelsea, Liverpool, Leeds are european failures too and if we just use the 10 years as opposed to the more present 5 years then Utd aren't failures! brilliant! I now feel the scoursers have been given a raw deal in the past in light of this!!! :D :D

Of course, without question, I'd love to win the C.L. but regardless of the all the media hype around it, for me it's definetly not the be all and end all. i'm just happy I'll get to watch football at the top end of the premiership in the comfort of my new seat @ Ashburton thanks to our european failure money and our wage bill!

p.s. can't wait for the day when Roman does a Ridsdale!!! :D

Anybody that has entered the champions League as often as Wenger has without getting past the quarter finals is a failure in Europe. Utd have a decent record in Europe under Ferguson and Ferguson can be a little dissappointed that he has not got to more finals. Chelsea Have not been in the Champions League that much and got to the semis last year. Liverpool have not been great in it either so they are failures. Italian teams are the ones that have had best succes. I dont think the Champions League is about hype. It is far superious then seeing Arsenal beating CHarlton 5-0 or seeing West Brom and Southampton draw 0-0. There is about 10 intriguing mathces a season in the EP. Champions League is quality and maybe the reason you dont like it that much is cause you are pretty used to seeing Arsenal put in performances like they did last night.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Is he registered for the Champions' League?

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He was on the bench according to soccernet

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

Anybody that has entered the champions League as often as Wenger has without getting past the quarter finals is a failure in Europe. .

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But a semi final appearance would make us not failures??? :confused:

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

Utd have a decent record in Europe under Ferguson and Ferguson can be a little dissappointed that he has not got to more finals. .

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Ridiculous, half of europe can be disappointed by not getting further in the competition. Walking through group games doesn't give you a right to feel you should have gotten to more finals. You can't take the luck one year and then crib about not getting it another year.

I should know, Arsenal used up all their premiership luck in one full sweep last year!

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

Chelsea Have not been in the Champions League that much and got to the semis last year .

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Just like Leeds eh? But of course, that doesn't count as you never judge on one season! :p

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

Liverpool have not been great in it either so they are failures..

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I think if you can go back to the last decade to highlight your point, you could go the extra mile back to the 4 euro cups our scouse friends collected!

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

Italian teams are the ones that have had best succes. I dont think the Champions League is about hype.

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I think there have been more success from spanish clubs in recent times with Valencia and Madrid being in a good few of the last 6 or so finals. There is huge hype surrounding the champions league and the quality isn't always great, the groups stages have some of the most meaningless matches ever seen come week 5 and 6. What about the much hyped tactical classic All-Italian final at Old Trafford between Milan and Juventus in 2003 - pure garbage!

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

It is far superious then seeing Arsenal beating CHarlton 5-0 or seeing West Brom and Southampton draw 0-0. There is about 10 intriguing mathces a season in the EP. Champions League is quality and maybe the reason you dont like it that much is cause you are pretty used to seeing Arsenal put in performances like they did last night.

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Agreed, i never said the quality was superior, I said if european success meant having to whore out the club to players and agents on astonomical wages that result in us having to play first division football because we can barely stay afloat....then you can keep the euro cup.....i'd rather we continue with our policy of staggered payments, youth development and all the above in our brand new stadium and get to watch my team score 5 goals at home in the premiership. I reckon most Leeds fans would throw away that semi-final appearance for a direct route back to the top flight. Caviar is nice but you can't survive without your bread and butter! clear?

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Originally Posted by Conor74

No no, don't apologise, I'm only too happy to think back to those days...though it looks like crisis over for the foreseeable future.

The next big meltdown will be another recent CL winner, Borussia Dortmund (ironically the city of Dortmund is twinned with Leeds)

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Are Borussia in financial difficulty? They get 70,000+ a week, now that would put Ridsdale in the shade for financial recklessness.

If you are talking about their perilous slide down the table then there is a fair bit of form like this in Germany; Kaiserslautern, Leverkusen and I think Hertha have all been both CL contenders and relagation threatened in the last ten years (I think there may be more than this as well)

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Originally Posted by Conor74

another recent CL winner

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Admittedly I've not read all the thread but are you associating Leeds with winning the CL :confused: :D Well the idea makes me laugh.

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Originally Posted by Kingdom

I'll be going for :

Juve
Inter
Chelsea
Bremen
Liverpool
Psv
Milan
Bayern

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Oops!! I'll have to re-consider!! Perhaps:

Juve
Inter
Chelsea
Lyon
Liverpool
Psv
Milan
Bayern

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Originally Posted by Pat O' Banton

Are Borussia in financial difficulty? They get 70,000+ a week, now that would put Ridsdale in the shade for financial recklessness.

If you are talking about their perilous slide down the table then there is a fair bit of form like this in Germany; Kaiserslautern, Leverkusen and I think Hertha have all been both CL contenders and relagation threatened in the last ten years (I think there may be more than this as well)

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Dortmund are close to €100m in debt I think. They have the highest average attendence in Germany. I read somewhere else that they got 82,000 for a match against Schalke earlier this season.

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Originally Posted by KarlosIRL

p.s. fantastic to see an Irish player on the bench for Arsenal last night too ;)

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Even better to see another Irish player make yet another appearence in The CL for Liverpool last nite

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Originally Posted by davros

Apparantly,Ch*lski to make an 'official' complaint re.some incident that happened @ H-T..........More to follow?

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Yeah it was over Anders "Walter Mitty" Frisk. Apparently he went into the Barca dressing room at H/T and was acting all chummy with their players and Rijkjaard (or however its spelt). The guy is a joke, always wants to be the star of the show, he's put out Roma, Valencia and now probably Chelsea single-handedly. The Valencia - Werder game in the Maestella was a classic of how not to ref a match.

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Originally Posted by GK for the Town

How come you reckon Arsenal will overturn a 3-1 first leg defeat after playing garbage and then you pick Milan over United ? With Shevchenko out tonight i reckon the tie will be over after the first leg. Just Like arsenals is.

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Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Man Ure fans crack me up :D I chose Milan over United my friend, because Milan are a top football side, while Man U are a great big load of over-rated sh*te. You believed the hype, spouted from plonkers like Dunphy and Andy Gray, just like all the other Man U sheep. They had Shevchenko and Stam out, two of their core players, yet they still completely outclassed Utd. Away from home. The words past and sell-by-date spring to mind.

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

Once again Wenger has been found out at the highest level. He just does not have the tactical awareness at European Level.

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Agree completely. I think Wenger struggles when things are tight and physical - he doesn't seem to have any answer, no plan B. They have been shot down this season in the premiership by teams getting stuck into them. You'll notice that Arsenals only answer seems to be aggression of the wrong sort, players getting sent-off and causing near brawls on the pitch (and off of it). They are very bad losers, hardly the hallmark of a great manager. Mourinho is beginning to show signs of being a bad loser as well, he's ranting even when they draw. Must be something in the air in Landan...

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Originally Posted by KarlosIRL

p.s. fantastic to see an Irish player on the bench for Arsenal last night too ;)

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What's so fantastic about it? He's only there because they were missing a number of regulars and they have to fill a bench of seven players. Liverpool have Finnan starting, while Darran Potter came on for the last 10 minutes. That must be super-dooper fantastic I suppose.

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Originally Posted by KarlosIRL

FYI - the reason I said the last 5 years was that I know all the Manchester United fans hate Liverpool fans blabbering on about past glories in past decades and that they wouldn't want to be tarred with the same brush of thinking that past glories make up for present day ineffiicentices in europes top competition.

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LOL, an Arsenal fan having a go at Liverpool fans for "present day ineffiicentices in europes top competition". Ye've never gotton further than Liverpool in it! In fact, Arsenal are a joke in europe. I notice the way you said top competition as well - conveniently forgetting that ye lost a UEFA Cup final in recent years, while we won one and the Super Cup? Tut Tut Tut :D

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Originally Posted by 4tothefloor

Agree completely. I think Wenger struggles when things are tight and physical - he doesn't seem to have any answer, no plan B. They have been shot down this season in the premiership by teams getting stuck into them. You'll notice that Arsenals only answer seems to be aggression of the wrong sort, players getting sent-off and causing near brawls on the pitch (and off of it). They are very bad losers, hardly the hallmark of a great manager. Mourinho is beginning to show signs of being a bad loser as well, he's ranting even when they draw. Must be something in the air in Landan....

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I've no problem with Managers being bad losers - Wenger, Mourniho, Ferguson are all bad losers at times and usually when they feel they have beaten unfairly or controversially. I don't remember Wenger complaining on Tuesday Night, or after the Bolton defeat or the recent Man Utd defeat, he talked about his teams poor performance alright. Don't remember any 'real' acts of agression of the wrong sort against Bayern (perhaps Lauren tackle) or Bolton when we were losing this season for example. Your making sweeping generalisations about 'every' time Arsenal lose. Wenger complained after the game away at United all right, and I think he was right too. A manager that is happy losing is worthless. I think it's no surprise that Wenger and Ferguson are the two most successful managers in the premiership and are vocal about defending their teams and players. It could be argued that if Graham Souness, Roy Evans & Gerhard Houiller had been of the same mind Liverpool wouldn't be into their 15th year of waiting for a title.

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Originally Posted by 4tothefloor

What's so fantastic about it? He's only there because they were missing a number of regulars and they have to fill a bench of seven players. Liverpool have Finnan starting, while Darran Potter came on for the last 10 minutes. That must be super-dooper fantastic I suppose.

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Excuse me for being happy that an Irish Lad is considered worthy of a place on the bench ahead of our young french english or spanish player in our reserve team. As an Irishman, I was delighted to see that and will always be delighted. I wasn't having a go at any other club's lack of irish players!! :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by 4tothefloor

LOL, an Arsenal fan having a go at Liverpool fans for "present day ineffiicentices in europes top competition". Ye've never gotton further than Liverpool in it! In fact, Arsenal are a joke in europe. I notice the way you said top competition as well - conveniently forgetting that ye lost a UEFA Cup final in recent years, while we won one and the Super Cup? Tut Tut Tut :D

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Way off the mark mate, it was an Arsenal fan having a go at Man Utd fans having a go at Liverpool fans and being selective about the time frame they use to be considered successful. Was actually defending my liverpool friends and if you actually read the thread again you might see I mention your 4 euro cups! :rolleyes: .

Didn't convienetly forget anything, read the thread again we were talking about the Champions League, not the Super Cup or the Uefa cup!!!!!!!!!!!! :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo

Yeah it was over Anders "Walter Mitty" Frisk. Apparently he went into the Barca dressing room at H/T and was acting all chummy with their players and Rijkjaard (or however its spelt). The guy is a joke, always wants to be the star of the show, he's put out Roma, Valencia and now probably Chelsea single-handedly. The Valencia - Werder game in the Maestella was a classic of how not to ref a match.

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Was it not the numpty Roma fan throwing the lighter at Frisk that led to their downfall or am I just being naive. :confused:

Didn't Frisk help The Irish team out on at least one occasion? Right enough the 2 bookings were a joke last night.

To clarify my point

Liverpool as a club are not a failure in the European Cup to say that woudl be stupid. In recent times they have probably punched above their weight in getting to the European Cup quarter final and winning the Uefa Cup.


Man Utd have been consistantly average in work for the ability that they have at the Squad. They had one year where they were really good and they won it. Another year they did well and were knocked otu at the semi final stage by Leverkeusen.


Arsenal have been consistantly poor in Europe performing well below their ability and not showing the from they have in the Premiership


Leeds utd had one great season where they over achieved.


Chelsea Have had a decent season last season in Europe and if they get to the final this season that would be a decnet record in Europe but with the money behind them it is understandable.


My original point is that Arsenal are the biggest under achievers in Europe. With their resources and the abilty at the club and the form they show in Europe. IN addition you have to take into account to such claims as "Greatest Team Ever" which were made by fans of the club last year and lots of lazy journalists.

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Originally Posted by Junior

Was it not the numpty Roma fan throwing the lighter at Frisk that led to their downfall or am I just being naive. :confused:

Didn't Frisk help The Irish team out on at least one occasion? Right enough the 2 bookings were a joke last night.

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Frisk gave us the 2 pens v Spain in Suwon. Brave to give the 2nd one for attempting to swop shirts before the final whistle as although it was a certain penalty many refs turn a blind eye. Duffer may have been going down a little easily for the first one.

Thought he likes the limelight too much.

He should have let the Roma game continue with the 4th official.

He should not have sent Drogba off. both bookings were a bit harsh - forward's tackle early in the game and then he had every right to go for the ball ofr the 2nd one. You could argue both bookings.

It did totally change the game as Barca never looked like scoring before that although I reckon they would still have made the tactical changes anyway and could possibly have come back v 11 men.

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Originally Posted by 4tothefloor

Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Man Ure fans crack me up :D I chose Milan over United my friend, because Milan are a top football side, while Man U are a great big load of over-rated sh*te. You believed the hype, spouted from plonkers like Dunphy and Andy Gray, just like all the other Man U sheep. They had Shevchenko and Stam out, two of their core players, yet they still completely outclassed Utd. Away from home. The words past and sell-by-date spring to mind.

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I didnt think they were outclassed at all. They scored from one howler from Carroll (keepers are having a nitemare lately). & I cant remember any guilt edge chances that they missed. However had Scholes(normally reliable) taken his chance and Fortune put away his great chance, then you would not be saying the things your saying. I Never said that Milan were a bad side, i dont think anybody could make that point and have valid reasons to back their arguement. Thay do have quality players even without Stam and Shevchenko. I did think though that United would win and i still do think they'll win over the distance. We've had great results in Italy before when needed. When you think about the possibilities for counter attacking in the team at the moment with the pace and skill of the likes of Rooney, Giggs and Ronaldo, there has to be a chance there. No way is this over yet !!!!